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Yawn
How dare someone use reasoning and facts and figures to back up an argument.
I agree, I’ve seen little evidence that banning private schools will improve state schools.
In isolation no one has said there is much evidence for it. I tried to explain how the negative impact of grammar schools on the majority could be good evidence that removing small numbers of pupils can haveca big impact on the much larger majority left but you refused to accept it. Bottom line is, like climate change, direct evidence cannot be produced. Doesnt make it untrue though. You can keep wailing all you like though.
I see its gone quiet on more sen kids in private schools after a bit of evidence was produced!!
Suspect if private schools all got closed down many parents will just come up with a plan B. Overseas schools, home tuition, move abroad.
Sure private schools contribute to some of the imbalance but have to identify what the problem is that needs addressing - far more complex than just close some schools and it all gets better.
Would it help? Might. Would it be the key change needed? Not convinced. Just makes a good headline.
Could you show the sen working
If you quote something I've written that you dispute (with plenty of context) then I'm happy to justify it with a link or concede the point if I can't.
when you consider that ~1pc of people pay ~30pc of uk tax
FACT-CHECK! Utter bollocks. the 1% highest earners pay 28% of income tax
Sorry, I missed out the word 'income', thanks for correcting me.
My partner is a state school teacher and I am pretty sure that their most demanding SEN kids end up in Private schools. Googling “private sen schools” suggests I’m right
See fig C from the link above, although I have no doubt if you only google forcwhat you want to find you no doubt think you're rightvall the time!!
My experience of private schools is that they push put the sen kids, ruins their results profile.
My partner is a state school teacher and I am pretty sure that their most demanding SEN kids end up in Private schools. Googling “private sen schools” suggests I’m right and there are many such schools.
See fig C from the link above
So what?
My experience of private schools is that they push put the sen kids, ruins their results profile.
Not if they're an independent school specifically for SEN kids which is the context of this little digression.
So what?
So you are wrong. The most demanding have echp's and private schools have a very small proportion of kids with echp's and only what 10% of the school population go to private schools. So unless your wife works in some sort of twilight zone thats vastly different to the rest of the country I cant see how you can be right, I'm sure you can though as you googled something or other and convinced yourself.
BTW - those of you accusing me and others of the politics of envy. I was offered a place at Hutchinsons in glasgow - the "top" private school in the area. I refused it because the school facilities were shit compared to my state school which was state of the art.
My partner is a state school teacher and I am pretty sure that their most demanding SEN kids end up in Private schools. Googling “private sen schools” suggests I’m right and there are many such schools.
See fig C from the link above
So what?
So you are wrong.
Which of the two sentences is wrong?
Both I expect although I will be amazed if all your wifes most demanding sen kids have parents who can afford private, no doubt your quick google can account for this anomaly too.
My partner is a state school teacher and I am pretty sure that their most demanding SEN kids end up in Private schools. Googling “private sen schools” suggests I’m right and there are many such schools.
Which of the two sentences is wrong?
Both I expect
Expect? You don't sound very confident, and you're right!
First sentence. I was "pretty sure about" it. You're getting that from the horse's mouth!
Second sentence: Yes, there are many such schools, you can google “private sen schools” and count them.
Perhaps, in turn, you could explain what "fig C" has do do with either of my assertions?
Not if they’re an independent school specifically for SEN kids which is the context of this little digression.
Ah fair enough.
Its pretty simple outofbreath you made a bullshit backed up by nothing but what your wife said and a quick google that private sen schools exist, that most of your wife most demanding sen kids go private. I posted some evidence to show that private schools account for a very very very small proportion of kids with echp's which either means you miss heard your wife, she is talking bollocks, she lives in a bizarre twilight zone very different from the rest of the country where all the worst sen problems have parents who can affird private education. The simple fact is the overwhelming majority of kids with echp's are educated by the state.
Its pretty simple outofbreath you made a bullshit backed up by nothing but what your wife said and a quick google that private sen schools exist, that most of your wife most demanding sen kids go private. I posted some evidence to show that private schools account for a very very very small proportion of kids with echp’s which either means you miss heard your wife, she is talking bollocks, she lives in a bizarre twilight zone very different from the rest of the country where all the worst sen problems have parents who can affird private education. The simple fact is the overwhelming majority of kids with echp’s are educated by the state.
Take a deep breath, calm down.
You've picked two things I've said and I think we've sorted them out conclusively.
If you quote something else I’ve written that you dispute (with plenty of context) then I’m happy to justify it with a link or concede the point if I can’t.
Its a myth that Finland doesn’t have private schools, although they are different to the UK type. Here is a very reasonably priced one (16k Euro/year), that even teaches in English, to escape to!
Home
There is just one fee-paying school in the Finland, the International School of Helsinki, which has mainly catered for international employees of Nokia and other industries
There's no need to try to work out from first priciples how to fix segretated education in this country = we can just look at how others have done it.
You’ve picked two things I’ve said and I think we’ve sorted them out conclusively.
Ok love, you keep thinking.
There’s no need to try to work out from first priciples how to fix segretated education in this country = we can just look at how others have done it.
Why pick Finland? Singapore is best in every PISA test area. (..and has private schools.)
If we *do* want to use Finland as our target then we can be optimistic - we're not far behind - 19pts behind on Maths ~20-30 odd points behind on Reading and Science. Not sure we really need to kick 600,000 kids out of their schools to claw back 20/500 points.
I'm pretty sure Finnish is a pretty simple language to learn as a native speaker (if you already speak English in which case it's a nightmare) so more perhaps time is left for maths and science while our kids are learning to write our odd spellings and irregular verbs. No future tense, no gender, phonetic:
https://www.fluentin3months.com/learn-finnish/
In 2018, Singapore was ranked 151st out of 180 nations by Reporters Without Borders in the Worldwide Press Freedom Index
Yeah, I think I rather Finland. Sometimes it's about the country you want to live in rather than how good your children do at maths.
In 2018, Singapore was ranked 151st out of 180 nations by Reporters Without Borders in the Worldwide Press Freedom Index
Yeah, I think I rather Finland. Sometimes it’s about the country you want to live in rather than how good your children do at maths.
By that logic Finland's also a crap place to live so we should discount that too - it's dark half the year!
If we're only allowed to take best educational practice from places that are nice to live we need to model our schools on New Zealand or somesuch...
We've chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
Why?
Why pick Finland? Singapore is best in every PISA test area. (..and has private schools.)
Theres the missed point again. Schools and education are about an awful lot more than passing exams. Or should be.
Both my kids go to State schools. I can afford to send them to a private one, but choose not to.
I think they will end up more balanced and happier people by going to a State school, which for me is the only measure.
Private schools game the system (easier GCSEs etc) and don't deserve to have charitable status.
TJ - you have explained your opinions several times but as myself and others have pointed out those with the money to send their kids at full fees will just send them off to an international school. You are literally talking a couple of hundred quid in cheap flights. Those are the people living at the level of society to directly influence policy and they are just going to move to next available option rather than do that.
The rest will just go back to the same broken system where no amount of bright kids will be able to magically pull money and resources out their collective arses for the system as a whole. Anything they do donate will go to a single school meaning the inner city scum will continue to be under resourced, under funded and under valued.
In short - nothing changes!
AA - I'm not going to bother debating this with you now, your attitude stinks and clearly you feel your argument stinks as well if you can't take a bit of debate without resorting to petty playground nonsense. If it was any good you wouldn't be so clearly rattled. Wail about that bollocks, love.
AA – I’m not going to bother debating this with you now, your attitude stinks and clearly you feel your argument stinks as well if you can’t take a bit of debate without resorting to petty playground nonsense.
WTF are you talking about?
Wail about that bollocks, love
Oh I see its OK for you to act like a preteen after too much sugar but others cant respond in kind to previous?
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
Why?
Purely because of the difficulty of comparing completely unrelated data sets. There's no obvious conversion between a PISA score and "Niceness of the country in general".
5plusn8
Member
Yawn.
As I said before, Eton is not representative of the majority of private schools. You are basing your whole concept on a single example.
No, I am not. I spoke in detail about Eton there because Mefty raised it as an example. I'm basing my argument on my personal experience of the sector, Eton's just one specific case that supports it and not even one I'd have chosen myself.
I suspect that actually, as Mefty said, Eton is one of the more generous examples.
Purely because of the difficulty of comparing completely unrelated data sets. There’s no obvious conversion between a PISA score and “Niceness of the country in general”.
That doesnt make it a good measure though. I seem to recall Singapore and other countries teach kids to pass the test, in the UK a selection of kids are chosen to do it with no prep and no real need or desire to take it seriously so using it as a measure is flawed.
No - I have explained what actually happens but you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
Your pupils that will leave the country are the same as Schrodingers bankers - a complete illusion. I thought you claimed earlier most private schoolkids are not the super rich.
From my own experience of the school I went to I know the fact that having those motivated middle class kids in the state system drives up standards for everyone. In the experience of top educationalists we know that this this true
BTW - how you can call anyone else out for an attitude that stinks is beyond me. You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view. Now the desire to retain privilege - thats what stinks
=
With that I am out of this. the stench of hypocrisy and snobbishness and the desire to retain privileged and begger eveyone else is frankly abhorrent and shows exactly why education reform is needed.
Why pick Finland? Singapore is best in every PISA test area. (..and has private schools.)
Theres the missed point again. Schools and education are about an awful lot more than passing exams. Or should be.
If it's not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice? Oh yeah, because it's got a tiny independent sector!
That doesnt make it a good measure though.
I'm not saying it is a good measure - in fact it seems dreadful to me. The only thing that seems directly comparable to me is maths. Certainly you can't compare reading ability between people who read in different languages.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
We’ve chosen PISA tests as our measure of schools with best practice. We should stick to that.
PISA is IMO a problem. It distorts the objectives of the people running education. The objective switches from educationg people to take their place in society and fulfil a useful role, to doing well in tests with very limited scope.
Over half a million 15-year-olds from 79 countries and economies took the PISA test in 2018. They were tested in reading, mathematics and science with a focus on reading. In addition, students in some countries took tests on financial literacy and on global competence. Results of this PISA round (PISA 2018) will be released on 3 December 2019.
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
Your pupils that will leave the country are the same as Schrodingers bankers – a complete illusion.
I'd guess almost every single boarder will. If you're (say) in the army moving from place to place you simply can't take kids in tow, you have to have them cared for 24/7. All the international boarders will go elsewhere, obviously. I'd guess there are very few people who board who could conveniently swap to a day school and those people will typically be kids at the elite schools and they deffo won't be sending their kids to a state school.
Tangent alert: As for Schrodingers bankers, I know a guy who moved his job role to Switzerland in ~2008 directly because of the upper rate tax increase. Related to this conversation he took three kids out of Private School here to do it. They weren't at a posh school but he still saved a fortune in school fees (International school in Switzerland wasn't pricey) plus the tax plus he lives somewhere he loves now with fantastic outdoor opportunities for him and the kids. (The South East of the UK isn't as incredibly nice as people up north imagine!)
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
Schools in the UK are not judged on PISA tests thats why its not a good measure as some kids have to do a test they havent prepped for and dont care about. This is not the case in other countries.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
Its certainly closer than Singapore. Finland seems to do well on having happy kids too
PISA is IMO a problem. It distorts the objectives of the people running education. The objective switches from educationg people to take their place in society and fulfil a useful role, to doing well in tests with very limited scope.
Over half a million 15-year-olds from 79 countries and economies took the PISA test in 2018. They were tested in reading, mathematics and science with a focus on reading. In addition, students in some countries took tests on financial literacy and on global competence. Results of this PISA round (PISA 2018) will be released on 3 December 2019.
Hardly an incentive for schools to teach languages, social sciences, history, or anything remotely practical.
PISA is a millstone around educators necks.
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
You have to apply, and receive an offer, before you can apply for funding… So I think it’s fair to assume that the vast majority of kids who could have made a successful application didn’t think it was worth trying, were put off by the process, or never even knew they could. My nice middle class school might have had some idea, but does Scumbag Primary down the road
Actually it can be the reverse, the school i was referring to is Rugby, they seek the kids out by working through networks that they have developed over the years with various deprived communities throughout the UK, North Kensington being a prime example.
I do know a bit about North Kensington and I imagine they have picked up kids from there because they have been involved for many years. They set up a youth club there in the late 19th century, which has since merged to become the Rugby Portbello Trust which was one of
the charities most involved in picking up the pieces after the Grenfell Tower disaster.
I’m pretty sure Finnish is a pretty simple language to learn as a native speaker (if you already speak English in which case it’s a nightmare) so more perhaps time is left for maths and science while our kids are learning to write our odd spellings and irregular verbs. No future tense, no gender, phonetic:
https://www.fluentin3months.com/learn-finnish//blockquote >
...you've certainly proved that English can be difficult to understand 🙂
Finland does not appear to be held back by its lack of private schools, and as importantly suffers less from the unfairness and lack of social mobility that they build into our nation.
We've gone from "Finland has the best schools because PISA tests and therefore the UK should ban Private schools" to:
Finland does not appear to be held back by its lack of private schools,
So if it’s not for the PISA scores why pick Finland as best practice?
I wasn't the one who picked Finland but my answer is: Finland scores well because it doesn't give flying duck about PISA, it just gives its kids an excellent all round education that is well financed, given sufficent ressources and has the support of the population.
Start a thread about teachers and you'll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It's either piss taking or slagging off. I've seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against - the British population.
I wasn’t the one who picked Finland but my answer is: Finland scores well because it doesn’t give flying duck about PISA, it just gives its kids an excellent all round education that is well financed, given sufficient resources and has the support of the population.
Start a thread about teachers and you’ll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It’s either piss taking or slagging off. I’ve seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against – the British population.
I'd 100pc agree with the support of the population explanation, but banning independent schools isn't going to help with that.
Start a thread about teachers and you’ll see the British attitude to teachers and education. It’s either piss taking or slagging off. I’ve seen threads on here that demonstrate exactly what teachers are up against – the British population.
I'd fully agree with this. I am convinced schools have the worst problem in the world as many kids have been trained by their parents to hate teachers and education.
This is why social mobility campaigners piss me off, they use statistics to blame everyone else for why the least well off do not educate themselves and move up and out. When in reality there is a significant proportion that hold themselves back because they [cATHERINE TATE MODE] hate fackin students, hate fackin teachers, no child of mine is going to fackin university[/cATHERINE TATE MODE].
I am not sure how to fix this.
Where did I see a video of some other country where there were like 60 kids in a class and they were all mega grateful to be there?
you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
Except that's not what I'm arguing for. I'm just a cynic that can't believe people who can afford to won't just ship their kids abroad.
I thought you claimed earlier most private schoolkids are not the super rich.
Nope, not me. I went to the MoD boarding school which was a few hundred a term at most, I'm under no illusions that was typical in terms of fees.
You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view.
See my first point. That's absolutely not what I'm arguing for. I'm saying pick your battles, this isn't going to produce anything like the results you think it will as any talent will be diluted in the shitty system we have now. Unless we invest in that system I which case the whole thing is moot.
BTW – how you can call anyone else out for an attitude that stinks is beyond me.
As I recall I haven't insulted anyone directly or indirectly in this topic. I've not use puerile insults nor inferred that anyone's parents didn't love them. Maybe that seems okay to you but it sure as hell isn't to me. You don't know anything about my upbringing and neither does he so to be quite blunt he's a **** for even suggesting it and you're not much better at this stage for defending him. This is that point where you need to take that step back, I know he's a prick but I also know you're better than that.
Oh and TJ you need a mirror mate your prejudice is once again clouding your judgement, you haven't conceded a single point and yet you say:
you refuse to believe it in your ideological pursuit of retaining advantage for the already advantaged
You are the one who want entrenched privilege at taxpayers expense and refuse even consider anything that challenges your view. Now the desire to retain privilege – thats what stinks
the stench of hypocrisy and snobbishness and the desire to retain privileged and begger eveyone else is frankly abhorrent and shows exactly why education reform is needed.
You came into this discussion with that opinion and nothing has changed, you are so blinkered and prejudiced its unbelievable.
Many here have said, we are not well off, yet we are working hard to pay for our kids education because the local scheme sucks.
When you get your own kids you will realise that you will do anything to help them, its just normal human behaviour.
But you want to insult all of us as elitist scum when really we are just dedicated parents.
Most people here are just concerned that the social justice warriors will take away what we have worked for because 'its not fair'.
The discussion is just us trying to understand why the local system is ****ed and why the private schools are better and how to fix it.
I think it is unreasonable for anyone to expect that I should sacrifice my child's chances, that I have made huge sacrifices for personally, to benefit someone else's kids.
mefty
Member
Actually it can be the reverse, the school i was referring to is Rugby, they seek the kids out by working through networks that they have developed over the years with various deprived communities throughout the UK, North Kensington being a prime example.
Ah, thanks- makes sense, Rugby are quite inspirational across the sector, not just for widening access to the school but for the community work too... so many institutions treat that like the new cool idea to shout about, but they've been doing it basically forever without ever making it into a big deal. There's something about the whole setup that just feels solid and... well, inspired isn't the right word, because they make it feel matter of fact and obvious, not inspired, like it's the only way they know how to do things. And they don't brag, or use it as a PR or marketing tool.
In fact we've paid them the sincerest flattery ourselves- we basically ripped off the Arnold Foundation for our own fundraising, it's a superb model for steady, effective philanthropy as opposed to vanity projects and personal interests. And very scalable too. Unfortunately it's very hard to use their overall approach as a model since so much of it relies on "have a massive sustainable income from property you've owned for half a millenia", but still. Find a painting worth £10 million quid in the attic? Get it sold quick, don't waste a penny on insurance and galleries, we're a bloody school.
Ironically the best word I can use to describe the whole approach, is "class" 🙂