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Got it.
You keep thinking fella!
Not thinking seems to be the general theme here.
It's the current poor state of public state education that is at fault not people's choice to choose private education if they see fit.
I can't stand the unequality of it myself, even the difference between the local state grammar schools and comprehensive schools is night and day, down to how well you do (or are tutored) to pass the 12+ exam.
I have worked in private schools for the past 10 years, and the quality of the children we produce is truly amazing.
That quite an odd turn of phrase by someone working in the education sector of our youngsters to come out with. It's how Gregg Wallace would describe Bakewell Tarts coming off the production line at the Mr Kipling factory.
An analysis of TIMSS data shows that weak unions, school based control over hiring and salaries, centralised exams, and a healthy private school sector lead to higher student achievement.
https://www.educationnext.org/whystudentsinsomecountriesdobetter
It’s the current poor state of public state education that is at fault
Is state education in the UK currently poor? Seems way better than when I was a lad.
Its a lot worse than when I was a lad - but then i went to secondary in a truely comprehensive system that was properly funded.
BTW -0 if you have a grammar school you cannot have comprehensive schools in that area. think about it.
Personally I like to believe the education experts I know - none of whom sent kids to private school and who ran Scotlands schools system up until about 15 years ago. and yes - I do mean the people who were advising the government, setting standards and so on. Highly skilled . qualified and paid education professionals
Is state education in the UK currently poor? Seems way better than when I was a lad.
Are you joking? From this side of the border the English education system is a bloody joke, schools that are more concerned about what kids are dressed like (down to what label their grey jumper or black trousers have) than their education (as seen when uniform rule breakers are excluded). You have the academys and whatever the hell passes for standards in them and a creaking state system for the remainder. Then there's the hilarious "pretend you pray" nonsense to get into the "right school".
I'm not saying the Scottish system is perfect, we have our issues as well but by and large it's a level playing field in terms of choice and we don't seem to have the same bs to contend with.
TJ - keep believing what you like but as an ex-boarder (10-18) I can assure you that not everyone or even a sizeable minority of my cohorts turned out like that. Of course we had proper pastoral care and folk in charge who gave a shit, I imagine were that not the case it could get very ugly indeed (and from what I understand was for a long time, product of making soldiers teachers I guess). There are plenty of boarding schools all over the place that you wouldn't know existed but quietly turn out plenty of well adjusted people every year. As said not all of them exist as Oxbridge feeders.
the English education system is a bloody joke
My kids must have been lucky with our schools then - or we chose wisely. 🙂
Squirrelking - its not just the damage it does to people and yes of course they do not damage every child and yes some schools will be much better than others and not all private schools are boarding schools. Its also the damage they do to others education as I explained before. Removing motivated kids, teacher and parents out of the state system damages state educated kids chances. Add to this the " old boys network" and you end up with something that is toxic for the country. I also abhor thew fact that my taxes subsidise private schools. I would not abolish them. I would just make them pay their way and be taxed as businesses and to pay the state for those state trained teachers they remove from the state system
I am looking at the population as a whole. I perfectly understand the desire to do the best you can for your kids on an individual basis. I want whats best for the population as a whole. greatest good of the greatest number
And as above - this is not my view. this is the view of some of the countrys top education experts none of whom sent their kids to private schools
And of course education is not just about exam results. Its about helping children become nicely rounded adults
Put it this way - i bet I could tell the private school educated folk on here by their attitudes with a decent degree of accuracy.
I don't see that a teacher in a private school has been removed from the system anymore than another graduate that hasn't gone into the public sector.
If there is a shortage of teachers then make the career more attractive to both graduates and those currently teaching.
I don't think dismantling the private system without improving the state system is going to benefit anyone.
I'm sure about 50 pages back someone said that if you improve the state system then the public schools will die from the competition. We could try that instead of creating monster academy chains with millionaire CEOs.
Put it this way – i bet I could tell the private school educated folk on here by their attitudes with a decent degree of accuracy.
Please expand on this...
I don’t think dismantling the private system without improving the state system is going to benefit anyone.
This.
Our system is ****ed. Like our public health services our state education system is run by people chasing targets and bonuses and staffed by folk who are over worked and under paid. Instead of addressing these issues we instead heap the blame on the private sector. I'm just about a committed trot compared to most and even I can see this is utter nonsense, its the same old divide and conquer shite being used to place the blame elsewhere.
TJ - I'd be interested to know what attitudes you think you can spot in the privately educated and the difference between what you think you see and reality.
Totally agree and this is what pisses me off about the whole thing, its like saying good nutrition causes long life, only rich people can afford good nutrition and that's not fair, so lets ban good nutrition.
Its ****ing moronic and just the politics of envy. I sometimes think I am left wing, then i come across stuff like this and think these people are so thick its unbelievable.
If we fix education, private schools will cease to be relevant and go out of business. Simple.
If we ban private schools and carry on as we are otherwise, we will just make overall education worse.
And of course education is not just about exam results. Its about helping children become nicely rounded adults
Put it this way – i bet I could tell the private school educated folk on here by their attitudes with a decent degree of accuracy.
Jeesus this is naked prejudice.
No it is not - its a reality that you guys cannot see
What qualities?> Arrogance, over confidence, patronising attitudes, lack of empathy - that sort of thing and its completely obvious
If we fix education, private schools will cease to be relevant and go out of business. Simple.
No, they won't because they are about far more than education.
If we ban private schools and carry on as we are otherwise, we will just make overall education worse.
If you can private schools, you won't carry on as you were, because the sharp elbowed classes, as Cameron called them, will make damn sure that doesn't happen. Which is part of the argument for banning private schools.
Its **** moronic and just the politics of envy
I asked before why its the politics if envy I dont get this. Is it envy that makes me want a better education system one like Finland for example? I'm envious of the Finish system I suppose. Private schools drain the state system of good experienced teachers so getting rid or massively limiting would straight away improve things, obviously it would also need a massive shake up of the state system, but those trying to make out it would be done in isolation and would therefore make things worse seem to just be moronic and espousing the politics of over simiplicity.
And as above – this is not my view. this is the view of some of the countrys top education experts none of whom sent their kids to private schools
Isn’t that just making some kind of daft point possibly to the detriment of their kids, or maybe they just liked to high salaries on fancy cars and posh holidays over paying school fees.
My wife and I both work in the NHS but we use private healthcare where appropriate because we know that’s the best thing for us, doesn’t mean we don’t invest 100% of our working efforts in to improving the NHS.
I went to a shit state school, my wife went to a different shit school in another part of the country, we now live in a part of the country with shit state schools, so have decided to send our son to a private school. He loves it, but maybe we should put him back in to the local under funded overstretched state system just for fairness.
How much state revenue is lost from private schools having charitable status, have we confirmed that figure higher up in the thread ?
Arrogance, over confidence, patronising attitudes, lack of empathy – that sort of thing and its completely obvious
This is prejudice. Plain and simple. You have met a few people like this and some of them happen to be from private school. You should look in a mirror, you are describing yourself.
Utter nonsense 5plus8
Its well proven and well founded. You may not be able to see it but its totally obvious. don't like the message - attack the messanger 😉
AA - all of the points you have made in this discussion have been well argued and backed up.
I asked before why its the politics if envy I dont get this. Is it envy that makes me want a better education system one like Finland for example? I’m envious of the Finish system I suppose.
No, in your case no. However many people they want to ban private education because of envy.
Private schools drain the state system of good experienced teachers so getting rid or massively limiting would straight away improve things, obviously it would also need a massive shake up of the state system,
`
My experience is that this is an incorrect assumption. Private school teachers are some of the worst I have come across and wouldn't make it in the state sector. They have an easy job, willing kids and parents who want those kids to do well.
but those trying to make out it would be done in isolation and would therefore make things worse seem to just be moronic and espousing the politics of over simiplicity.
This is just cynical experience, govts have mucked up education, they never do proper joined up policy and they love crowd pleasing. I don't believe the Joris Bonson cares about protecting private schools he only cares about himself, I can see him coming down on private schools as a vote winner and not doing anything to improve education.
Obvs my interest here is that I send my kids to private. Thats because the local schools suck hugely. We struggle with the money, none of the schools alumni run the country, but a lot of good doctors, engineers, physicists and pharma researchers came from there. If they banned private schools before my 10 year old gets her a levels everything I have devoted to my kids will be wasted.
The prejudice here is that there are hundreds (ie the majority) of private schools (that you have never heard of) that are not eton, and produce kids that are not arrogant patronising ****ers, they produce kids that serve the country at the parents cost.
Its a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
\ts well proven and well founded. You may not be able to see it but its totally obvious. don’t like the message – attack the messanger
So let me see you insulted 10's of thousands of people you have never met, who attended private school calling them arrogant and patronising.
And I respond by calling that insult as prejudice, which it is. And I am attacking the messenger? It is prejudice, because you do not know these people, how can you know what they are like?
I admit to being prejudiced too. I assume that most people are nice and decent until proven otherwise.
Arrogance, over confidence, patronising attitudes, lack of empathy
Physician, heal thyself.
My experience is that this is an incorrect assumption.
My experience of 15 years in state education and knowing who has leftvto go to private schools very much doesnt add up to the same as yours. True a few not great teachers make the jump too but the real dross especially in shortage subjects just cycle round loads of state schools filling gaps left by better teachers and only get jobs because schools are desperate, the private schools are much less desperate due to offering better conditions and often better pay.
I send my kids to private.
Good for you, no problem with this.
If they banned private schools before my 10 year old gets her a levels everything I have devoted to my kids will be wasted.
Not everything as they would still have had many years of better education. But my question is, should, in an affluent society like ours, this be right. Should you and millions of others be desperate to get a decent education for their kids and yet only a very few be able to do this? I'd send my son private in a heartbeat if I could afford it. Shouldnt everyone have access to good education?
I agree with you, I just don't think banning private schools solves this.
You know why the top performing private schools get the best results don't you?
Hot housing and gaming the system?
Yeah kinda, they are selective, they bin the kids that don't perform along the way, they only enter the A grade kids for the exams. If you are not going to get A or A* (or 8 and 9's now) they ask you to leave.
Note I said - top performing schools.
Most private schools are inclusive. But seeing as everyone wants to consider that 8 of the best known schools in the country are representative of the 100s of others I thought I may as well indulge..
Not dissimilar to the top state grammar schools then..
I was just about to raise that.
So my point is, our local private school is inclusive. They have a mild entrance exam, and then they add a decent amount of value along the way.
They show that as long as the kids are motivated (and by implication the parents), and class sizes are reasonable, then you can provide an excellent education.
The problem is it costs 15k a year per pupil.
I don't know anything about state school budgets but I think its about 3 or 4 k a year they get per pupil?
This here is your problem.
How much state revenue is lost from private schools having charitable status, have we confirmed that figure higher up in the thread ?
No, I don't think we have. As far as I can tell Private schools cost the state nothing because the tax lost by charitable status would equally be lost be abolishing. When 'subsidy' of private schools was questioned someone mumbled something about army families getting funded boarding schools and then the whole thing was forgotten.
On top of that I'm not even sure anyone has stated why a Private School can't be a charity under normal charity rules? It seems to have been accepted as fact without any evidence.
What about kids educated at home? All the same arguments apply. Ditto home tutoring.
Anyway, the debate's been held, the argument's been won and Labour have quite rightly dropped this counter productive plan.
The problem is it costs 15k a year.
I don’t know anything about state school budgets but I think its about 3 or 4 k a year they get?
.
Indeed but if private schools were banned the incentive to spend more on education would suddenly increase, like I said if its described as the politics of envy to ban them, its the politics of over simplicity to expect it to be done in isolation.
This here is your problem.
The fact that you see it as my problem not societies is the actual problem, if it became your problem too, it might show the need to fix it!!
Indeed but if private schools were banned the incentive to spend more on education would suddenly increase, like I said if its described as the politics of envy to ban them, its the politics of over simplicity to expect it to be done in isolation.
Maybe someone mentioned this to the Labour top tier and after 30 seconds of considering reality they laughed and shelved the idea.
Maybe someone mentioned this to the Labour top tier and after 30 seconds of considering reality they laughed and shelved the idea.
Lucky it went that way. Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.
As t what point would the decision be made that the school is no longer a charity? If you say entrance is only allowed via donation then does that mean many sports clubs can't be charities.
Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.
The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!
As t what point would the decision be made that the school is no longer a charity? If you say entrance is only allowed via donation then does that mean many sports clubs can’t be charities.
13 pages in and I finally googled and I can't find any evidence that Private Schools aren't perfectly legal charities and I can't find any evidence of any significant subsidy.
The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!
It's identical logic. (If you banned private provision of those things "the incentive [for the state] to spend more on [them] would suddenly increase".)
Otherwise they could have got on a roll and banned the RNLI, Air Ambulances & MacMillan Nurses in the interests of improving Sea Rescue/Emergency Medical Help/Terminal Cancer Care.
The mental gymnastics you perform to get to these conclusion are really quite something, well done!!
Think if all of that money that could be diverted to public services.
Besides, I'm sure it was said tongue in cheek, unlike TJ's hate filled rants.
The fact that you see it as my problem not societies is the actual problem, if it became your problem too, it might show the need to fix it!!
Not everyone sees it as societies problem at all. You state that it is as an undisputed fact. It isn't thats only "your" opinion. You have the problem and others with a like opinion, not society as a whole.
Yeah, the successful grammar school near us gets huge parental donations because they don't end up sending their kids private.
Not everyone sees it as societies problem at all.
The fact that some cant see the poor state of education as a problem for society really does show peoples true colours, surely better educated people might help us solve the productivity gap for example
The fact that some cant see the poor state of education as a problem for society really does show peoples true colours, surely better educated people might help us solve the productivity gap for example
I'm not sure anyone here has said that, they just dispute that closing private schools will achieve that aim.
I’m not sure anyone here has said that, they just dispute that closing private schools will achieve that aim.
And no one has said closing them in isolation would either!