[Closed] Thatcher's successes?

The Falklands?

mr whippy.

Maintaining the status quo between the "haves" and "have nots"

Broke the stranglehold of the unions that was bringing the country to it's knees in the late '70s which encouraged much greater amounts of foreign investment (Toyota/Honda/Nissan as an example)

She broke the union stranglehold on the labour market and british industry.
Revitalised the country, that was a complete shit hole.
and smashed the Argies in the Falklands

She was more successful at destroying British industry than the Luftwaffe..

[i]mr whippy[/i]

Oh yeah, and that.

...try the search function. This one has been done to death recently.

funny how british industry thought she was great.
so not sure I follow that one.

opened up the city, right to buy council homes, changed the way Britain was seen in the world, negotiated the EU rebate etc etc

Well, Britain in the 70s was a pretty unappealing place for many really. Massive income tax and not a lot to show for it. So that changed in the 80s; how much of that was due to Thatcher, and whether the UK became a better place for her input, is something not everyone agrees on....

Irritating the hell out of TJ and Elfin.

[i]right to buy council homes[/i]

depends if you think affordable social housing is a good thing or not.

[i]negotiated the EU rebate[/i]

although not enough to make us anythign other than a net contributer.

She did unite most of the country when the poll tax was brought in 😉

poll tax that worked well

she did a lovely resigination speech iirc

Britain in the 70s was a pretty unappealing place for many really. Massive income tax and not a lot to show for it. So that changed in the 80s;

what was the unemployment rate in the 80's and the noirth/south divide and the overall tax burden
Ta

Reducing the top income tax rate from 95%

[i]Irritating the hell out of TJ and Elfin. [/i]

Oh yeah, and that 🙂

industrial output fell 3% in her years to 25% of the economy, so not the devastation Labour are still claiming now, the devastation came in the 90's under Blair/Brown where industrial output fell more like 10% to just 12% of the economy.

The big winners under Labour were bankers and estate agents and public sector.
manufacturing was just argued over and no one did anything to help it, or rather we all wanted cheap bike bits from China.

Sancho - Member
industrial output fell 3% in her years to 25% of the economy, so not the devastation Labour are still claiming now, the devastation came in the 90's under Blair/Brown where industrial output fell more like 10% to just 12% of the economy.

do you want to try and make less simplistic?

[i]the devastation came in the 90's under Blair/Brown where industrial output fell more like 10% to just 12% of the economy[/i]

Did industrial output actually 'fall' or did other industries just increase faster and thus make up more of the overall total?

what was the unemployment rate in the 80s and the north/south divide and the overall tax burden

How you view that depends on how you view the omelette / broken egg ratio.

Privatisation of a lot of stuff that should never have been operated by the government because the private sector was or would have done it perfectly well? e.g. Sealink, all the motor manufacturers...

The Falklands?

The re-occupation of the Falklands was a military success (in its own terms, I suppose) but the total lack of anticipation and preparedness was a huge failure, which is why Peter Carrington (showing a degree of personal integrity uncommon in politics) respected the tradition of ministerial responsibility and resigned at the time:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6546223.stm
http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112604

Reducing the top income tax rate from 95%

[i] right to buy council homes[/i]

Nope, there had always been a right to buy, just previously you had to pay the market price - what she did was gerrymandering IMO

Removing any possible ambiguity about who your enemy was.

See also: Call-Me-Dave

Oh... and fuelled some cracking satirical comedy. Ie: Spitting Image

Reducing the top income tax rate from 95%

Depends on how you look at it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson

By 1974, the top-rate of income tax reached its highest rate since the war, 83%. This applied to incomes over £20,000 (£155,247 as of 2012),[17], and combined with a 15% surcharge on 'un-earned' income (investments and dividends) could add to a 98% marginal rate of personal income tax.

what she did was gerrymandering IMO

Spot on! Taken to its logical conclusion by 'Dame' Shirley Porter

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homes_for_votes_scandal ]Vote for me and you can have a cheap house[/url]

Thatchers greatest success has been to privatise profits and nationalise loses. Something that continues to this day. The idea of cross subsidising has gone out the window.

It wasn't gerrymandering at all - gerrymandering is redrawing political district lines for partisan gain.

Encouraging the right to buy was a good thing - if you wanted proof just visit any estate where a good percentage of people had bought versus an estate where they hadn't.

one would be nice and tidy and the other a sh1thole.

(everyone I saw, anyway...)

She personally ordered the hereford hooligans to have some fun at princes gate. Good job they didnt **** it up.

It wasn't gerrymandering at all - gerrymandering is redrawing political district lines for partisan gain.

Silly old district auditors getting that one wrong then:

[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3867387.stm ]Definitely not gerrymandering then?[/url]

Though I suppose for the actual dictionary definition of gerrymandering, you'd have to look instead at what Call Me Dave is up to now. That sticks to the more traditional trick of actually changing borders to your advantages

Tories eh? Got to love 'em.

Encouraging the right to buy was a good thing - if you wanted proof just visit any estate where a good percentage of people had bought versus an estate where they hadn't.

one would be nice and tidy and the other a sh1thole.

The 70's wasn"t that bad a time, life got worse in the 80's, most council estates were working class before the 80's, she created the underclass that dragged them down to a new low.

Irritating the hell out of TJ and Elfin.

Yeah but me and TJ irritate the hell out of people like you, so you've autopwned there. 😆

We're as successful as Thatcher! Woot! 😀

Encouraging the right to buy was a good thing - if you wanted proof just visit any estate where a good percentage of people had bought versus an estate where they hadn't.

What like mine, where there are loads of privately owned flats which are mostly inhabited by people who need to claim housing benefit as the private rents are over twice what the HA rents are, thus costing the taxpayer more than if they were all still social housing?

I'm struggling to see much she did that was actually beneficial to [i]Society[/i].

But then, she din't believe in Society, did she? 😐

As above. In addition, in a mans world a woman dared to stand up and boy did she do so.

My favourite NuLabour success was having the balls to face down their traditional voters/habits and ban smoking in pubs. That took serious balls IMO (no not Ed, although he may be serious 😉 )

din't believe in Society

Well in the famous quote she wanted people to take responsibility for themselves rather than rely on society. Perhaps she could have said it better.

Yeah, it was a proper clause 4 moment, that one Hora 🙄

Well in the famous quote she wanted people to take responsibility for themselves rather than rely on society. Perhaps she could have said it better.

I think that sums it up pretty well - and what is wrong with that sentiment?

and what is wrong with that sentiment?

= [i]I'm alright jack **** everyone else.[/i]

Essentially.

Oh look; it's happened...

I once dreamt I slept with Thatcher. I woke up neither happy or sad, just where the **** did that come from 😐

= I'm alright jack **** everyone else

what complete bs.

I don't mind paying taxes to support people that fall on hard times as long as they then put a bit of effort into trying to get back from those hard times.

my mother worked at a school for maladjusted girls. As soon as it came time to leave the school they nearly all became magically pregnant in order to get benefits and housing. I do mind paying taxes to support this type of reliance on society.

You're the only person who could have dreamt that you sick, perverted, twisted wierdo! You make me sick!

does it depend on which area of the country you come from, as to whether you thing these things quoted were successes?

what complete bs.

It's not actually.

I don't mind paying taxes to support people that fall on hard times as long as they then put a bit of effort into trying to get back from those hard times.

= Being part of [i]Society[/i].

my mother worked at a school for maladjusted girls. As soon as it came time to leave the school they nearly all became magically pregnant in order to get benefits and housing. I do mind paying taxes to support this type of reliance on society.

I once met a Black man in Plymouth who told me that all the immigrants are taking ur jaaabs....

Why do you think that these 'maladjusted girls' might have acted in such a way? Hmm? Have you actually stopped to consider that?

Her greatest success was wiping out the tories in scotland.

.....and the north of England. And Wales. In fact, in every metropolitan area in the country outside the South East

binners - Member
.....and the north of England. And Wales. In fact, in every metropolitan area in the country outside the South East

I just wonder what would have happened if she hadnt been in power, how shit the country would have been and what it would be like now.

b r - Member
right to buy council homes

Nope, there had always been a right to buy, just previously you had to pay the market price - what she did was gerrymandering IMO

I once met two white men in a pub in Manchester that told me that people in greenhouses shouldn't throw grenades at graphic designers.

You're the only person who could have dreamt that you sick, perverted, twisted wierdo! You make me sick!

Like I said. I woke up totally non-plussed. Why couldn't I wake up having spent a 'virtual' night with Amber Hurd? The mind is a cruel thing.

two white men

just as Labour not putting any restrictions on the new EU eastern european citizens moving to and working in the UK was

Again with the 'let's blame the foreigners'... 🙄

You are aware that the freedom to travel across borders within the EU applies equally to British people too? I expect you're going to be critical of anyone from the UK who ever works abroad...

Why do you think that these 'maladjusted girls' might have acted in such a way? Hmm? Have you actually stopped to consider that?

yep - they were mostly pretty intelligent - basically just trouble makers/bullies that had been ejected from normal schooling - liked half-inching knifes from the canteen and pulling them out in front of the teacher, hanging girls they were bullying upside down out of top floor windows, that sort of thing.

I once met a Black man in Plymouth who told me that all the immigrants are taking ur jaaabs....

and the point of that comment was???

I don't mind paying taxes to support people that fall on hard times as long as they then put a bit of effort into trying to get back from those hard times.

whereas I do mind paying taxes to people who put bugger all effort in and are content to live on benefits (or earning a good wage and claiming child benefit), which is a significant part of the population I am afraid.

Haven't got a clue B&D. I've only been there 5 minutes. Whoever it is. I DIDN'T BLOODY VOTE FOR THEM! Hang on a mo.......

*nips off to Google*

Right... its David Nuttall - Conservative. Don't blame me! I was in a different constituency at the last election. Would you class us as metropolitan, fella? I suppose so, as we're part of Bury. Should I have said 'inner city'

So TurnerGuy ... claiming child benefit while actually having children labels you a 'scrounger' in your head, does it? How very tolerant of you.

You are Paul Dacre and I claim my £5

I still remember the signs up around Chorlton (put up by the supporters of a Nurse who claimed she was unfairly sacked). Yes maybe she was. However linking herself as likened unto the Holocaust was well out of order. Is that a Chorlton-thing??

So binners, not being able to read what I actually said makes you competant to comment on it, does it?

Again with the 'let's blame the foreigners'...

Although Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are both Scottish they pass TJ's "British" test, so no, I'm not blaming foreigners

whereas I do mind paying taxes to people who put bugger all effort in and are content to live on benefits (or earning a good wage and claiming child benefit), which is a significant part of the population I am afraid.

What 'significant part of the population' are 'content to live on benefits', then? Got any figures to back such blinkered narrow-minded statements up?

Thought not.

And you jolly well have not answered the question about the 'maladjusted girls'....

And you jolly well have not answered the question about the 'maladjusted girls'....

they acted in such a way because they were smart enough to see an opportunity to exploit.

So binners, not being able to read what I actually said makes you competant to comment on it, does it?

Well, I'm not very bright, but I take it from the statement

whereas I do mind paying taxes to people who put bugger all effort in and are content to live on benefits (or earning a good wage and claiming child benefit)

you're calling people who claim a benefit they're perfectly entitled too, scoungers. But you need to be specific. You're being a bit wooly.

What do you define as a 'good' wage? Could you give me an exact figure please? then I know who I can label as decent hard-working folk, and which ones I can label 'scroungers'. And treat them with respect/disdain accordingly

So do you not think they wooduv chosen other opportunities to ensurte housing and an income then, if they were readily available?

Do you genuinely honestly think loads of teenage girls deliberately get pregnant just to get a council flat etc?

This is another of those right-wing myths that whilst may be true in a very small number of cases, gets blown out of all proportion to create media hysteria and get the Middle Englanders' knees a-jerking. to detract from the more serious issues, such as the very wealthy using their power and influence to avoid paying billions in taxes (**** Society; every man for himself)....

Oh look, you've fallen for it....

Do you genuinely honestly think loads of teenage girls deliberately get pregnant just to get a council flat etc?

I quoted the case of a school my mother worked in for several years and it was a trait that a good percentage of the girls about to leave at 16 would become pregnant.

I didn't make any suggestion that the trait extended any further than that school.

Business is business; dog eat dog. My priority is to myself, I can't be concerned with the profit margins of others.

Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but that's how it is.

So influential on so many people, even if they don't realise or won't admit it.....

just think if Thatcher had not been in power we would have thriving coal, steel etc industries, with people all earning 40k a year with good state pensions and lots of cheap steel to sell to the rest of the world and coal to export to China.... err, not sure how that would have worked out eh?

Can I have my exact figure on a 'good' salary please TurnerGuy? There are quite a few people I know who have kids and claim child benefit. I've an idea what kind of salary bracket they're in.

I'm confused as to whether I should view them as fundamentally decent people, or a burden on society? Its very confusing for me

Oh dear. Someone else completely misinterpreting something, as well as taking the bait hook, line and sinker... 🙄

Give it a rest HD. You're just embarrassing yourself now.

Is it cos I din't give you an autograph? Is that it? Diddums. Praps if you'd actually bin worth noticing, I might have noticed you.

I quoted the case of a school my mother worked in for several years and it was a trait that a good percentage of the girls about to leave at 16 would become pregnant.

So, how many of them [i]deliberately[/i] got pregnant to get a council flat then?

I pay too much tax.
Im tired of paying council tax on both shops, when a self employed plumber etc will earn far more than me and pay no business tax in the form of business rates, it sucks.
just means less incentive to open a shop, establish a business and employ people etc.

I pay too much tax.

Earn less then. Simples.

Apparently, life's proper cushy if you're on benefits. Why not give that a go?

Or maybe get pregnant?

20K? 25? 30? 35? 40 maybe? Come on now, don't be coy.

you're calling people who claim a benefit they're perfectly entitled too, scoungers. But you need to be specific. You're being a bit wooly.

I said "earning a good wage", which implies that they don't actually 'need' those benefits, but just claim them because they are entitled to.

There is only so much money raised through taxes.

I would prefer to see that money spent on the health service and care and trying to stop a few people dying from curable illnesses (or even overseas aid...), rather than have it handed out to people who just take it because they are entitled to it.

There is also an argument about not having kids if you can't afford to raise them, but there are counter arguments to that.

However, what is your viewpoint on this dm story:

http://www.****/news/article-1265508/Peter-Davey-gets-42-000-benefits-year-drives-Mercedes.html

are they entitled to an eigth kid at taxpayers expense?

Elfinsafety - Member
Is it cos I din't give you an autograph? Is that it? Diddums. Praps if you'd actually bin worth noticing, I might have noticed you.

Can it Halfman, I've told you before: e-mail in my profile.
If you feel the need to throw insults then at least have the grace to keep it off forum......

Do you genuinely honestly think loads of teenage girls deliberately get pregnant just to get a council flat etc?

Don't suppose this is common but I'd be surprised if it's never happened. Anyway, as it happens I do know of a not dissimilar situation. I knew someone who wanted a bigger council house as she had too many kids but the council said she had enough space so (according to her sister who I worked with) she thought if she had another kid they'd have to move her. When she did they still didn't move her.

Simple economics, innit? Buy wherever is cheapest.

So if we had the large manufacturing that Thatcher is famed for 'killing' you would be OK with the fact we could not sell any of the output due to being too expensive in the world market? Can't have it all can we?

She knew what was coming.

Posted this before in previous Thatcher thread as I think its difficult to understand the Thatcher legacy without appreciating the context of UK econ history in the 1970s-1980's

In terms of economic history, the 1970's and 1980s were periods of thesis and antithesis, whereas the 1990's became more of a period of synthesis. As always, both extremes sowed the seeds of their own destruction. The 1970s were an appalling period for the UK as a whole. Mining was not exempt from this. Miners wages had been crushed by rampant inflation leading to the 1972 call by the NUM for a 45% wage increase to compensate for the loss of earnings previously suffered. Not unreasonable one could argue, but what global industry would survive wage inflation of 45%? We then had Satley...confrontation....miners winning...the Yom Kippur War...the oil shock...an inflation crisis....wage demands/conflict etc.

So Thatcher arrives and takes on the extremes of the 1970s - inflation, union power, increase welfare state, rigid adherence to Keynesian economics (although Callaghan pre-emptied her here) and introduced a different set of extremes laid out in Hayek's, "The Constitution of Liberty". Inflation was targetted via (the extremes of) monetarism, union power/restrictive practices was taken head on leading ultimately to appalling scenes of the Miners strike, the welfare state was attacked with a renewed focus on self-reliance which had its own extreme in "there is no such thing as society.", competition was introduced to the benefit of many before ending in an over-reliance on privatisation and free-markets etc.

The synthesis arrives in New Labour and Mandlesson's infamous line, "we are all Thatcherites now." Politics shifted to a central ground and the good parts of the Thatcher legacy remained and the bad parts rejected. This legacy remains with the real as opposed the rhetorical differences between Labour and Tories being marginal. Political extremes on both sides became and remain marginalised. The responses to the current crisis would have been generally the same whatever party had won the last election but with roles reversed.

The new thesis however was characterised by an unbalanced economy - financial services and public sector - and excess levels of leverage at the household, bank, corporate and sovereign levels. And so we now have a crisis that requires smaller financial services and public sectors and the extremes of leverage to be addressed but in the crisis context of the collapse (and possible re-birth) of the € project. So the new antithesis is represented by extremes in banker-bashing, the over-regulation of financial services, the attacks on the public sector wages and pensions and rhetorical errors such as Cameron's credit card gaffe. As before, this will not be pretty, but hopefully a new synthesis will arrive in time (2016?).

So, how many of them deliberately got pregnant to get a council flat then?

It does happen. I've witnessed it first hand. I spent years working with the economically and socially challenged and encountered several girls who openly admitted they got pregnant and had further children purely for the state benefits they were given.

I'm not saying it's rife and every teen mother does it intentionally, but it does happen.

So, how many of them deliberately got pregnant to get a council flat then?

100% of the girls that got pregnant just in time for leaving school, I would imagine.

20K? 25? 30? 35? 40 maybe? Come on now, don't be coy.

the statement

"or earning a good wage and claiming child benefit"

sort of implies that a good wage means that they do not need financially to claim child benefit.

I've got to admit TG that you've a point with that. Its madness!!

The benefit that I find incomprehensible s housing benefit. And I'd assume that represents the majority of their benefits bill. The Tories are planning to cap it at £500 a week. And people on benefits are moaning.

But that's over 2 grand a month! Paid for you! Not many people who are in full time employment could afford to be spending 2 grand a month on rent. I know I couldn't! But they're paying their taxes so that people who don't work, can

Its absolute insanity! The labour party have said this only yesterday. As peoples living standards get squeezed,people are going to stomach this kind of thing less and less

100% of the girls that got pregnant just in time for leaving school, [b]I would imagine[/b].

Ah. You 'would imagine'. I see. 😆

Are we done here? I think we are, aren't we? Yes.

due to the timing of the pregnancy I don't have to imagine very hard that it was 100%.