It was tolerated
= Bad management, not a bad workforce, and thereby lies the fundamental problem in Thatchers ideaology. As previously stated you only have to look to the Nissan - Sunderland example to prove it.
Brilliant Binners! I used to see a bit of crafty napping going on at certain companies. Once got a bollocking for making to much noise (hammering), it was about 11:30pm and some of the chaps had just got back from the pub and need to catch up on their work sleep balance.
Last night on the BBC Thatcher program, Neil Kinnock was scathing of Scargill's roll in the miners strike... You could literally see the contempt Kinnock held Scargill in, it was written all over his face.
Anybody care to enlighten us on why, please ?
I suppose sleeping was the olden days equivalent to spending the day being paid by your employer to post drivel on the internet
😀
Two camps on here. Ironically one camp is consistently full of pent up resentment and snipes towards STW'ers.Weird that.
LOL you complain about something then do it yourself in a reply that only has two sentences. Your defence is to have a "dig"
Yes deffo not an irony thing
Yes Binners wins with that point
Because Kinnock was/is a craven .......
I suppose sleeping was the olden days equivalent to spending the day being paid by your employer to post drivel on the internet
Does that mean we need another Thatcher to Crush the scourge of Lazy office workers abusing internet Privileges?
Do they even have a union for IT managers?
cookeaa - Member
I grew up in Thatcher's Britain and I now live in a country which feels like its slowly sliding down the shitter, with weak Political leaders (from all parties) a pervading culture of self interest and social divisions. I think modern Britain was at least partly shaped by her actions and policies when in power, and that she has established negative aspects to our culture which have been barely challenged since.Of course you could say that during her life she overcame the inherent handicap of her gender and the age in which she was born, to not only lead a staunchly Patriarchal, Right wing, Establishment led political party, but became the first Female Prime minister of the UK. That by itself is quite something.
What she did to this country when in power is done, and cannot be undone now. She has played no direct part in the government of this country for 20 odd years, so rather than dance on the grave of a old lady, and harp on about how the state of the UK today is entirely her fault, why not Challenge the lack of determination and imagination displayed by those that followed her...
I had no love for her or what she did during her political career, I very much doubt I'll bother to watch her televised funeral, and I'm already bored to tears with the programming that was cued up and ready to roll in anticipation of her death. But to actively revel in anyone's Death like some have on here and elsewhere? I would like to think I'm a better person than that.
Yesterday an old lady died, she was someones Mother and Grandmother as well as being a former politician of some note. Perhaps we should simply look on her as a figure from history, from whom lessons (both positive and negative) can be learned.
Then leave it there and move on...
+1 Well said.
If you are now saying that it wasn't typical for miners to spend most of their shift sleeping, then why did you bother mentioning it then ffs ?
🙄I didn't say it was typical for miners to sleep all shift, I didn't mention sleeping at all FFS 🙄 🙄 😆
I did mention it would be possible for them to do so with overmanning, and it did happen in other large industries at the time. I witnessed it at first hand, you know, actually being there and seeing it for yourself. FFS 🙄 🙄 🙄 😆
Kinnock was scathing because the original proposal put forward by the National Coal Board was for a phased shut down of the least productive mines with excellent redundancy payments for those miners that would lose their jobs - the terms were such that one of the union negotiators has subsequently said that he was stunned by the generosity of the initial proposals.
Against that backdrop Scargill basically campaigned on an all or nothing basis – no negotiation, no closures and no redundancies. That precipitated the subsequent stalemate (refer to various optimistic comments on this thread about “finding a middle ground” / negotiating with the unions) and ultimately led to many more mines being shut down than would otherwise have been the case, and lower payments to those that lost their jobs – effectively what Scargill did was to create a “my way” or “no way” choice for the government.
Unfortunately we’ll never know if a different Prime Minister would have been able to achieve a different outcome although it’s safe to say that many leaders would probably have taken a similar decisive approach to the one that ultimately turned out so badly for the miners and communities that were on the losing side.
Kinnock has commented on this a number of times so the fact that a staunch socialist can only criticise Scargill for his approach should speak volumes.
I did mention it would be possible for them to do so with overmanning, and it did happen in other large industries at the time. I witnessed it at first hand, you know, actually being there and seeing it for yourself. FFS
He's right.
[img] 
[/img]
windbag kinnock not fit to lick scargills boots--a douche bag of a man-- would not trust him to get a bag of chips..
Because Kinnock was/is a craven w*nker.
windbag kinnock not fit to lick scargills boots--a douche bag of a man-- would not trust him to get a bag of chips..
What's with the Kinnock hating?
If I could have chosen to ask Neil or Margaret to bring me a bag of chips, I think I'd go for Neil. Am I missing something?
OhNo and rudebwoy ... interesting options though yours are, they don't really answer the question.
Allthepies... thanks for the link... that's basicaly what he said on the program
Robd ... interesting thanks
Will people start slagging off John Smith next?
On the sleeping on the job point, I have direct experience (admittedly post-Thatcher, in the 1990's) at a very large engineering company - I don't get my facts from a random "senior" person I met in the pub or whatever.
I was in charge of a night shift and was left in no doubt that sleeping was a sackable offence to be enforced at all times. Of course common sense prevailed in reality - you took a view of the situation / individuals concerned. In cases where it was obviously accidental (eg a quiet area when not much work was coming though etc) you just made a lot of noise walking towards it, giving them enough time to wake up and look busy. I never had to sack someone for sleeping (but did do for other, very good, reasons). That's how it should work to my mind.
Probably not particularly related to the post, admittedly, but I've written it now.
Will people start slagging off John Smith next?
Depends. How trustworthy was he with bags of chips?
I liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man, which is why the extreme ends of both parties vilify him. He seemed to realise that there was a road through the impasse that was both progressive and protected as much of the industry as possible. Unfortunately this left us with two intransigent megalomaniacs who had no idea of the meaning of the word compromise.
If I could have chosen to ask Neil or Margaret to bring me a bag of chips, I think I'd go for Neil. Am I missing something?
when I was at Cardiff Uni all the student union records on Kinnock went missing. Allegedly he used to have several political parties in the students union so he could get as much of their funding as possible. Also allegedly he used to be involved in local politics and used student union resources/money/cars in that involvement, even though it was 'illegal' and risked getting the student union shutdown.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was true based on actions of the socialist students of that time - being unable to vote because they had moved the voting station to a different location that had been communicated only to their 'brothers'.
I liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man
fool...
Yesterday an old lady died, she was someones Mother
Ah yes, lest we forget the Honorable Marky Mark the revolutionary funster,
On 25 August 2004, Thatcher was arrested at his home in Constantia, Cape Town, South Africa. He was charged later that day with contravening two sections of South Africa's "Foreign Military Assistance Act", which bans South African residents from taking part in any foreign military activity. The charges related to "possible funding and logistical assistance in relation to [an] attempted coup in Equatorial Guinea" organized by Thatcher's friend, Simon Mann. He was released on 2 million rand bail and spent a period of time under house arrest, but was bailed to London to live with his widowed mother while his wife and children moved to the family's home in Dallas, Texas.
But then..
announced that his family home would be in Europe after he was refused a residence visa to live in the United States
so nice little pied a terre in Sunny Monaco perhaps
Margaret Thatcher's son, the former British prime minister's nefarious offspring, will not be installing himself in the principality of Monaco as he hoped." A spokesman for Prince Albert II of Monaco told Le Figaro that Thatcher's residency card would not be renewed. "He has a temporary residency card valid for one year. It will not be renewed when it expires in the second half of 2006 and he will have to leave." The spokesman, Armand Deus, added: "I cannot say why it will not be renewed. But the Prince made things very clear during his investiture in July when he said that ethics will be at the centre of life in Monaco."
Personally, I blame the parents
BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?
Since neither group has likely gone through some genetic change, I would argue its a result of employment terms more conducive to business (and hence individual) success.
by her own hopes she was a complete failure
"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope."
She achieved that then as witnessed on here.
Will people start slagging off John Smith next?
Terrible Bitter it is no Boddingtons
Turner who on earth would take student political gossip - how many years after the event was this news relayed to you, decades?- seriously?
According to The Times, [carol the daughter]Thatcher called Tsonga "half-golliwog" and "the golliwog Frog".[14] Presenter Adrian Chiles, comedian Jo Brand, journalists and several guests[15] were with Thatcher when she made the remark. When others protested about her use of the word, Thatcher stated through her spokesperson[who?] that the comment was meant in jest.
The BBC stated that Thatcher would not work again on The One Show unless she made a more sincere apology.[16] Thatcher refused, saying "I stand by what I said. I wasn't going to apologise. I never meant it in a racist way. It was shorthand. I described someone's appearance colloquially—someone I happen to greatly admire."[11]
I mean who in 2009 did not use golliwog as a term of respect for someone they greatly admired
Of course you could say that during her life she overcame the inherent handicap of her gender and the age in which she was born, to not only lead a staunchly Patriarchal, Right wing, Establishment led political party, but became the first Female Prime minister of the UK. That by itself is quite something.
Well, yes, to a degree, but she was also a product of the age of which she was born.
I cannot say why it will not be renewed. But the Prince made things very clear during his investiture in July when he said that ethics will be at the centre of life in Monaco."
Ethics? 😆
The whole place is full of tax exiles.
BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?
Well, the radically superior product has to be a big factor too.
TurnerGuy - MemberI liked Kinnock, he has always seemed a decent and honourable man
fool...
Interesting personal comment, my wife may agree but can you elucidate in this instance please?
Much derided I know but some pretty good designs in BL, just poorly implemented and most alternatives were pretty bad as well.
kinnock was a loathsome toad who sucked up to all who he thought would help him-- a poor type of blair-- but he was no goodat it --he was also severely anti democratic-- blair learnt a lot from him.....he was always the first to attck people defending themselves from tory policies-- the press wound his key and off the windbag would go-- a creep of the highest magnitude-- apart from that a crap rugby player and a ginger with little hair--
I worked in Longbridge in 78, the Winter of Discontent was 78-79, Thatcher was elected in May 79. She went on to end the closed shop, impose secret ballots and take measures to end demarkation disputes. That's not revising anything, that's fact, Rudeboy.
BB- Question is the Sunderland Nissan plant an example of what could have been with better management or the result changing the employee/employer relations?
Depends whether you think its possible to control a business from the bottom up. Personally, I've run numerous organisations in my life, and I've never once found the balance of power legally or otherwise to be on the employees side. Thats in a senior management career spanning from the 1970's to date. So I do think its largely down to better management frankly. In fact I'd go as far as to say that legislative issues around employee relations are what kicks in when its too late to have managed properly, so again the employee relations issue as you put it really is not relevant in my view.
...and would that be anything to do with management of the business by any chance?Well, the radically superior product has to be a big factor too
Rubbish edukator- secret ballots are tosh--have you drip feed propoganda from the press-- then make your mind up as an individual not collectively- the closed shop is designed so that all those who benefit from hard won gains also contribute --thats as it should be--all those selfish types who dont want to pay a small union sub but never refuse the pay rises and holidays-- i'm all for open democracy--but it must be that!
"[s]the press[/s] STW wound his key and off the windbag would go"
😆
if you really are interested in kinnock-- why do you not do some 'research' --you'll find plenty of views on his political gymnastics ....
has this not run it's course yet?
not a fan of the closed shop but it is true that they benefit from the unions without paying - free loading a very thatcherite lifestyle choice apparently 😉
Not a fan of non secret ballots though they seem to work well in parliament
I'm afraid I'd like to vote on issues that concern me without being beaten up, having my family attacked or my car smashed up because I don't vote the way the union tells me, Rudeboy.
A monopoly supply of labour is no better than a monopoly supplier of bread. There's a place for a thick sandwich in a plastic bag and a place for Paul's. A monopoly supply of bread would result in Paul's prices for plastic-bag bread.
don't think we need lessons in democracy from right wing dictators-- they do not apply the same in their own stinking party...
any chance you could explain the ctorian comment please
...and would that be anything to do with management of the business by any chance?
Well, yeah - but I interpreted the question to be about factory-level management of labour rather than global management/design etc.
edukator--unless you were a stooge,those things would not have happened --were you an MI5 plant-- they were rife in that place !
that stuff about bread and plastic bags -- are you feeding ducks or something ?
And the loony left is still alive on STW
the closed shop is designed so that all those who benefit from hard won gains also contribute --thats as it should be--all those selfish types who dont want to pay a small union sub but never refuse the pay rises and holidays-- i'm all for open democracy--but it must be that!
If the unions were doing such a good job of looking after employee interests I think most people would happily contribute their dues. It's attitudes like yours Rudebwoy that have fractured our society, destroyed industries and communities. The irony is that many of the people holding these attitudes blame Thatcher for much of what they caused.
