[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

The NUM asking for 43% is out of context without knowing their actual pay. If it was to provide the workers a living wage then so be it.

Someone above came out with the old chestnut of "name one leader since who has had the guts" etc etc.

You are right - since her we have had a succession of grey, press-driven non-entities. But the reason for that in my mind is her - she emasculated the system and removed any notion of discussion of an alternative, turning the political elite into a bunch of non-entity yes-men/women.

She remains, in my personal and very subjective view, the most catastrophic leader this country has had in a very, very long time. I do think that but for her we would be so much better off today.

Wasn't the point that they didn't need to go on strike? Just the threat was usually enough? The 1971 NUM conference decided they would like a 43% pay rise.....

In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since [b]1926[/b], which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.

The [i][b]point[/i][/b] is that miners very rarely went on strike, despite the impression created by false propaganda. For decades they settled for pay and conditions through negotiations and without striking - usually linked to productivity, although apparently they were asleep most of the time 🙂

IanW - Member
I recall the last election when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win, when the rest the country was chomping the bit to get rid of them.

Singletrack world really is another world, which doesn't have a clue about the real one.

That is amazing.

Con 36.1% Lab 29.0% Lib 23.0

STW makes up 29% of those that voted?

[i]when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win...Singletrack world really is another world, which doesn't have a clue about the real one. [/i]

Your memory is somewhat at odds with mine.

I think what people couldn't believe was that Cameron and and his old school chums would win a majority. Which actually seems to have been fairly in tune with the real world.

I tend to think that stw (not just those that choose to post on this sort of thread) is probably a fairly wide corss section of political views - we all have different life experiences.

The NUM asking for 43% is out of context without knowing their actual pay. If it was to provide the workers a living wage then so be it.

Out of interest I was managing a wholesale business at the time. It was quite normal to have surcharges on price lists of that sort of order, as inflation was running at such a level it wasn't realistic to reprint them that fast. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that figure might need to be viewed in that context.

Inflation rates for the 1970's

1981 11.9%
1980 18.0%
1979 13.4%
1978 8.3%
1977 15.8%
1976 16.5%
1975 24.2%
1974 16.0%
1973 9.2%
1972 7.1%
1971 9.4%
1970 6.4%

of course we can now argue abotu whether wage demans fuelled or reflected those rates 🙂

wwaswas, shame on you for not presenting those figures as a graph! 😛

I recall the last election when on here its seemed unbelievable that Labour wouldn't win, when the rest the country was chomping the bit to get rid of them.

That will be why the Tories won such a convincing majority then. Oh....

Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time off sick.

edit for the above- point is there appears to be so many armchair socialist on this website, knowing what they do from news reports and university discussion and don't have a clue about the real world.

That's the point Ian. She led us all to think of ourselves, as individuals, rather than as communities or society.

In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since 1926, which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.

Are you including strikes that were called illegally without a national ballot?

(ps. read up on rule 43)

IanW - Member
Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time of sick.

What was that about the election, sorry?

Your powers of recall on that weren't very reliable, and that was only 3 years ago!

Are you including strikes that were called illegally without a national ballot?

All national strikes mate.

You must be gutted that you can't prove that the NUM had more than 4 national strikes in its [i]entire[/i] history, eh Z-11 ?

The lies and the distortion of the truth usually works so well for you.

One other thought. It's a shame in a way that this has run to 20 pages and all the media nonsense has got going as it shows the hold she still has on us even from the grave. A more satisfactory response on reflection may have been a shrug and a "so what?".

Hopefully one day the country can finally move on from her clutches.

[i]shame on you for not presenting those figures as a graph[/i]

I was educated when Thatcher was in power.

They didn't let us do graphs as it tended to show how bad things were 😉

Lifer- Think you misunderstood.

Enlighten me.

Hopefully one day the country can finally move on from her clutches.

Indeed. But thats hardly likely to happen while her odious disciples carry on her divisive and cruel work, waging war on the least advantaged in society to further the cause of the rich

Ernie, so you realise why prior to '71 there had been so few national strikes - rule 43

and you'll realise that it was Scargill and his trot mates that moved this goalpost as they wanted to take on the government.

and you'll realise that by 84, they still couldn't guarantee hitting this lower target, so called an illegal strike, thereby dooming them to failure, and in the process causing immense pain to hundreds of thousands of pawns in his attempt to overthrow democracy and the government in his vain search to become the leader of a communist revolution.

Make no mistake, the NUM are far, far from being heroes in the eyes of many ex-miners, and the name Scargill is muttered with every bit as much hatred as Thatcher in many mining towns.

this piece in the Daily Mirror (bear with it) is about how the class war continues today.

[url= http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/a-class-act.html ]http://www.fleetstreetfox.com/2013/04/a-class-act.html[/url]

I did find quite a lot in there that paralleled the Thatcher years, the rhetoric is different and to an extent the targets but the thrust is the same now as it's always been - blame the poor for being poor.

Charlie Mungus- Quite possibly, I believe her philosophy was that community improvement will only happen when its aligned with personal opportunity.

A view closely aligned with economics and the prevailing view of how humans are programmed.

That freedom was why she was popular and whilst the detailed changes were of varying degrees of success, the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another.

Right, I can see that it's got stuck in your gullet Z-11, so I'll repeat it.

[b]Do you realise that during its entire history the NUM only had 4 national strikes ?

And one of them was the General Strike of 1926.[/b]

[b]In 1971 the NUM hadn't had a national strike since 1926, which btw, wasn't a great success. In fact by 1971 they had never had a successful national strike in their entire history, so I don't know where you get your "just the threat was usually enough" claim.[/b]

You right-wingers really hate it when people hear the truth, dontcha ?

[i] the option is a nation of Mick Philpots[/i]

of all the things on this thread that is possibly the most offensive.

you really should think about what you're saying here:

that all parents on benefits will murder their children for a few quid.

that's shitty and you should be ashamed.

the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Yes the 'me me me' culture of grasping selfishness is so much better isn't it.

IanW - Member
Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another.

So you think I misunderstand because you don't understand?

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I believe her philosophy was that community improvement will only happen when its aligned with personal opportunity.

I think that is her real legacy even now most folk think what will it mean to me not will it make the world/country a better place she mad selfishness acceptable

Give the unemployment figure she deprived a hell of alot of people of personal opportunity never mind what she did to the community
if this was her goal [ I doubt it] she did not do very well

the option is a nation of Mick Philpots and layabout union reps(of which there were plenty).

Behave both offensive and the most idiotic comment on this thread

I am 54 years old-- a merchant seaman who went into the construction industry in 1983-- i left the MN in disgust at support for that malvinas/falklands conflict--no way was i going to be used as fodder for an imperialist clash---- miners strike--was class war-- declared by her and her cronies--they prepared well--they had learnt from previous clashes-- so they used scab labour-unliscensed lorry drivers--and crucial the might of the whole uk police force to destroy the miners union-- you were on one side or tother- i have been blacklisted for my union activities--standing up for rights and decent conditions , a living wage and supporting others in struggle-- its a proud and honourable thing to do-- those who want to snipe and peddle lies from keyboards and regurgitate tired old propaganda don't bother me really-- you are not relevant to those who matter-you are just barking dogs of the ruling class--who throw you the odd bone and give you a shiny new kennel --but for those of us who fought -you are now seeing the harvest of hate that Thatcher sowed all those years ago....

It makes me laugh this talk of people on benefits and their 'culture of entitlement'.

If you want to see a true 'culture of entitlement' then take a look at the tory front bench, the corporate boardrooms awarding themselves enormous pay rises, completely unrelated to economic performance, and the still unreformed and unapologetic snout-in-the-trough banking industry, whose obscene bonus structure rolls relentlessly on. This culture of limitless greed was all ushered in legitimised by that bloody woman. And its to the eternal detriment of us all

Anyway, all of those who cherish Thatcher's legacy, how do you square that with her unstinting support of mass murdering dictators like Pinochet? Even years later when his horrific crimes had fully come to light.

'Doesn't matter because thank god she smashed the unions' I suppose?

IanW - Member
Coming from a fairly shit council estate in the north of England Maggie gave me opportunity, the unions told me how to get the most time of sick.

Lifer-What was that about the election, sorry? Your powers of recall on that weren't very reliable, and that was only 3 years ago!

What am I supposed to read into this reply??? Stop blathering and make a point.

Is this not clear?

Lifer - Member

"IanW - Member
Lifer- cant really I don't understand you point, you quote one post and refer to another."

So you think I misunderstand because you don't understand?

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

you were wrong perhaps you are wrong there

the bit where they kept explaining it to you was what gave it away for me

I was just showing how dodgy your memory was re the General Election, so that maybe the rest of your recollections should be taken with a pinch of salt.

HTH

The air seems fresher now she's gone. Hopefully Tebbit and Lawson soon to follow.

So you are making the point made well by Grum, only doing it with a hint of insult and quoting the wrong post?

Point is in the last election Labour was always going to loose power but that was seen as impossible on here.

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

they say it goes in threes-- take your pick Doug Turd- Tebbitt-Lawson-- is that Hogg thing still using air ?-- and that buck house scrounger to boot....

I'm in my fifties and have a vivid recollection of life in the UK before and during Thatcher's reign. I've always thought that without Thatcher, the UK could have grown into a modern prosperous economy, where the economy serves the whole of the population rather than a small proportion of the population , with the vast majority serving them. As a consequence of Thatcher the postwar consequence was broken and directly led to the problems we face now.

I came across this quote the other day from J K Galbraith and I think it sums up Maggies legacy :

'The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.'

Your Philpott post is just ludicrous! Can you explain in any way how more people like him would exist in a more socialist state?

Point is in the last election Labour was always going to loose power but that was seen as impossible on here.

NO it was not seen as impossible on here
No election result is impossible obviously even UKIP winning or the Greens etc

Its also not true to say that folk on here though that it was unlikely that Labour would lose the election - we can all read polls - in essence your recall of event is [ politely] questionable.

You are just making stuff up on here tbh - it was indeed obvious that Labour would lose the election- iirc that is why the Civil service prepared for a hung parliament and made constitutional arrangements for such an event - you think the political interested failed to notice this

In essence you are just making all of this up

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

And you think my philpott post is in bad taste when others are wishing people dead!!

you just don't get it do you--he was nasty piece of work who bullied people weaker than him and even killed his kids ( not purposely)-- the others were people in positions of power over many millions--and destroyed thousands of lives and continue to do so---

From Mr Steve Bell

[img] [/img]

CharlieMungus
"What about those that lived through and lost dear family members in the terrorism, fear and genocide which was the regime of pol pot and the khmer rouge after they were thrown out. She led the government which supporte their seat in the UN, sent british troops to train them and funded them. Did she cry for all those who suffered and as a result. Did she show any compassion, symapthy or respect to those who lost close family members? Yet you demand her family are shown some kindness? Are you serious? Every monster is someones child."

Sorry I'm not sure what your'e saying here. Are you supporting Pol Pot and the Kyhmer Rouge?
I'm not "demanding" I just feel there is no need for the hate language.
Mrs Thatcher was someone's child!