[Closed] Thatcher's died according to BBC

She might well have felt sure of victory, but she should not have been surprised of just how cold and ruthless Tory politicians can be.

I would have expected her to be fully aware what sort of animal a Tory is.

Her apparent self-confessed inability to get over or forgive her plotters suggests otherwise.

BTW aracer, I found it hugely satisfying making that point, thank you for giving me the opportunity to make again 🙂

No worries ernie. I'm sure Labour politicians are lovely cuddly people who wouldn't dream of stabbing each other in the back.

I'm sure Labour politicians are lovely cuddly people who wouldn't dream of stabbing each other in the back.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Tory values have insidiously crept into the Labour Party in recent times. Haven't you heard ?

This state funeral has made me lose a lot of respect for the Queen - I highly doubt she's so naive to not know how divisive the issue was, so it looks an awful lot like a deliberate political statement.

Clement Attlee, who founded the NHS and the welfare state, had a small private funeral. Thatcher, who wanted to destroy both, gets the Queen paying her respects.

It's another not-so-subtle reminder that we're her subjects and we should know our place.

How much say did the queen have in the matter?

Too much obviously.

How much say did the queen have in the matter?

We're told she's been an adviser and confidant for prime ministers for 60 years - are you really saying she couldn't say privately when asked that she didn't think it was appropriate?

Either she's stupid, naive and very badly advised, or doing it deliberately. None of those possibilities are particularly impressive.

Weren't we still classed as subjects on our passports till not long ago?

Shame we never finished the civil war off properly. Should have butchered every last royal like the French did so they didn't have a chance to try and claim legitimate power again.

Either she's stupid, naive and very badly advised, or doing it deliberately.

I'm going for "doing it deliberately".

We're told she's been an adviser and confidant for prime ministers for 60 years - are you really saying she couldn't say privately when asked that she didn't think it was appropriate?

True, but there is a bit of a juggernaut going on here - which has surprised me a bit (though to be honest I've been trying to avoid the news, which may explain me being even more misinformed than normal). Glenda was rather outnumbered.

I doubt it is a political statement because it would be contrary to everything she has done for 60 years. I think it is most likely to recognize our first woman prime minister, however, the reason whatever it is should be made public so it is not misconstrued as a political statement.

Thank god for Glenda Jackson, for saying what needed saying!

The pathetic, competitive toadying of a succession of chinless strokers was one of the most nauseating things I've ever had the misfortune to witness.

But I feel our democracy is a little bit diminished today as one voice of tribute was sadly absent....

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It'd have been worth all the expenses claims to hear what The Beast had to say on the matter

Good assist from Bercow as well.

History is a very good guide as to whether the Queen is stupid, naive, badly advised or prone to doing (the wrong?) thing deliberately. And the answer IMO is pretty definitive. Given her own views (and example) of duty and service, I would suggest that she feels it appropriate to mark the passing of the longing serving PM of her reign. The Firm are good at the "respect" bit.

Naive in this instance.

Instructive that Glenda Jackson's speech was constantly heckled by the same braying Tory asses who demand respect for Thatcha.

Thatcher lacked compassion and that was the core of many complaints.
Belgrano
Miners
Poll tax
Care in the community
Homelessness
Social housing sell off.

The people who didn't like her tend to have compassion themselves, so I won't be dancing in the streets, an old lady is dead, so what? Thatcher died when she was pushed out.

I won't be dancing but I will say what I like. The attacks against people who criticsised her this week are vile and suppressive. Just because she is dead we don't change the freedom of speech. My 13 year old daughter said if we if we can't speak ill of the dead that gives Hitler an easy ride in the history books.

The people who didn't like her tend to have compassion themselves

There's a certain amount of evidence which would suggest otherwise.

My 13 year old daughter said if we if we can't speak ill of the dead that gives Hitler an easy ride in the history books.

Whats that got to do with Thatcher?

Whats that got to do with Thatcher?

He made the point in fairly plain english which I had no problem understanding, have another go :

I won't be dancing but I will say what I like. The attacks against people who criticsised her this week are vile and suppressive. Just because she is dead we don't change the freedom of speech. My 13 year old daughter said if we if we can't speak ill of the dead that gives Hitler an easy ride in the history books.

I'm sure you can handle a couple of minor typos.

Not sure if anyone listened to Brian Moore (rugby chap) on the Radio last night. I've always hated the man but I've found new respect for him after what he said.

When the cruel, heartless, guffawing little lord Fauntleroys that make up the present Tory party respect the dignity of the poor, the disabled and the working classes, then I'll afford the respect to that harridan they're presently demanding I should

Wacko - I heard that and agreed with him completely.

It demonstrates the pure arrogance of Tories that they just expect us all to observe a minutes silence for 'their' former leader. Why? Because they said so, that's why! Know your place and do as you're told, peasant!

I thought it was interesting that several rugby clubs have announced they are to do a minutes silence this weekend, but nothing similar has come from any football club as far as I know.

I can't imagine such a thing would go down too well at the Liverpool game.

Politics should be kept out of sports.

I have some admiration for "game old birds" who still demonstrate the courage of their convictions. It must be very hard when your are decades past your prime (acting as if you were the Queen yourself), when many people were too young to remember you at the height of your powers when you led your chosen field, when your participation rates are now below those of your peers and you may feel a periphery figure when once you were central. But still you fight on, speak out for matters that are important to you and despite your waning rhetorical powers can ignore the baying mob trying to heckle and rudely silence you. Anyway enough of Glenda, what was the topic again? 😉

Never foregt, never forgive.

Politics should be kept out of sports.

Why ?-- its part of life isn't it --

I can think of 96 very good reasons why most football fans, not just scousers, wouldn't observe a minutes silence for her

Ah the ****y winky returns at the end of another load of impertinent 😉 patronising drivel.

I thought it was interesting that several rugby clubs have announced they are to do a minutes silence this weekend, but nothing similar has come from any football club as far as I know.

Thatcher supporters would have to be pretty thick (cue obvious comments) to suggest a minutes silence at a footie game. TBH I'm surprised such a thing is being done at a rugby match, and will be interested to see what happens.

I think Millibands eulogy in the house of parliament was brilliantly balanced yet respectful. Whoever wrote that is bloody good.

My 13 year old daughter said if we if we can't speak ill of the dead that gives Hitler an easy ride in the history books.
Whats that got to do with Thatcher?

In really simple terms:
Thatcher was a leader of a nation, and is dead
My daughter was observing the media, and how critics are being treated, and made a comparison.

Just because someone is dead, it does not mean that you can't criticise them.
Feel free to criticise hitler, thatcher, Jesus or John Lennon. It's a freedom we have.
Using BS political correctness to suppress views is in fact not politically correct in any way, it's just the knee jerk reaction of people offended by other people's views, ( that's great you have the right to offended).... Or it is an orchestrated response by people/organisations with an agenda.

F*+** me like ~@£$% me completely. I though i'd got all this out mys ystem then I erad that Sir Mark Thatcher, that's SIR **^%ing [b]SIR[/b] mark @$**ing THhatcher has opened that flapping chinless cakehole of his and said something. Mark "Mapman" thatcher who got a knighthood for what exactly, getting lost? trynig to overthrow the government of an African state? being such an upstanding, model citizen that neither America nor Monaco want hime.
Big Eck says yes, because as obnoxious as I find the toad faced little toady, * me this whiole ing thing is showing em what a self-serving bunch arsewipes we have in westminster - Glenda jackson excepted.

EDIT **** me, I need a lie down and a cup of tea.

I think Millibands eulogy in the house of parliament was brilliantly balanced yet respectful.

Not a fan of his by any stretch. But as leader of the opposition, he had no choice other than to be respectful. The Tory rags would have had him for breakfast had he been any other way. Thankfully, Glenda said what we hope most labour MPs might have felt. Though, it doesn't seem to have impressed some impertinent right wingers who AFAIC wouldn't be fit to lace her boots.

Likely to be number one this week.

The Reading chairman (a high-profile donor to the Conservative Party in the past) is one calling for a minute's silence. Reading play Liverpool this saturday. It is the anniversary of the Hillsbrough tragedy on Monday.

Good luck with that, Mr chairman.

Or it is an orchestrated response by people/organisations with an agenda.

You can't criticise their god, even if she was a dog.

Not a fan of his by any stretch. But as leader of the opposition, he had no choice other than to be respectful. The Tory rags would have had him for breakfast had he been any other way. Thankfully, Glenda said what we hope most labour MPs might have felt. Though, it doesn't seem to have impressed some impertinent right wingers who AFAIC wouldn't be fit to lace her boots.

Kidding me? He was well within his rights to say anything with a polite edge. He would have won over alot more fans to Labour by being polite but fairly blunt.

He took the Gentleman's route.

BigButSlimmerBloke. I thought much the same as you on seeing his smug, charmless mug on the news. If you ever wanted to sum up, in a nutshell, absolutely everything that is wrong with the honours system, then the words [b]SIR[/b] Mark Thatcher does it nicely. The smarmy corrupt ****!!!!

I heard the pitbill on R5 yesterday. Blunt as ever - the minutes silence thing (rugby v football) in his opinion is simple class issue. He was not a Thatcher fan and expressed his intention to leave his seat during the silence. For which he received abuse on twitter etc.

IMO the minutes silence thing is in danger of being overused. And this is a case in point. There are plenty of other options for those who wish to pay their respects, to do so.

History is a very good guide as to whether the Queen is stupid, naive, badly advised or prone to doing (the wrong?) thing deliberately. And the answer IMO is pretty definitive. Given her own views (and example) of duty and service, I would suggest that she feels it appropriate to mark the passing of the longing serving PM of her reign. The Firm are good at the "respect" bit.

The Queen is carrying out a massive PR coup for everyone's favourite PR man. And surprisingly another Tory agrees with the decision.

A minutes silence for one person is utterly ridiculous. ANY one person.

It devalues its use on remembrance day.

NSFW.

hora - Member
A minutes silence for one person is utterly ridiculous. ANY one person.

It devalues its use on remembrance day.

Well said.
A natural old age single death... Vs the millions who died defending our freedoms.
Statistically she should have approx 0.000000001 minutes silence.

Ron Harris and Norman Hunter together this morning - what nostalgia!

Given that the relationship between the Queen and Mrs T was by all accounts frosty or formal (depending on the extent of diplomacy intended) I think respect is still the most likely driver of her choice. Attendance or non-attendance would be seized upon by those wishing mischief, when the most likely reason is staring them in the face.

Maybe she'd be best advised to have another stomach bug.

A minutes silence for Mrs T, who next? Is it even conventional to have such a thing on the death of a monarch? I'm guessing not, given it's presumably a modern part of recreational grieving.

I blame Blair, after Diana, for this commercialised, look-at-me grieving. I must be seen to be visibly upset. Preferably on camera. From my best side.

The tributes in parliament to Winston Churchill, upon his death, took 45 minutes. Contrast that with those unholy collection of smug, but media and PR savvy Etonians droning on for hour after hour, seeing how far they could wriggle up the collective Tory ringpiece. I wonder if I'll get a quote in the Sun? Get a grip and STFU!!!

We should leave this kind of emotional incontinence to the Americans, or in the case of glorious leaders; North Korea 🙄

What did Brian Moore say?

I'll promise you this, should Sale hold a minutes silence tomorrow night I'll burn all my shirts and post it on youtube!

Sale

Who? 😆

Attendance or non-attendance would be seized upon by those wishing mischief, when the most likely reason is staring them in the face.

Oborne has a very well argued piece in the DT on why the Queen should not attend, which persuaded me that the rationale for attendance should at least be stated.

Brian Moore pointed out that it was being pretty bloody presumptuous to expect that everyone shared the same opinion of the 'Iron Lady' as the people proposing the minutes silence.

They may have loved her, but she was certainly no unifying national figure. He said that he most certainly didn't share this rose-tinted view, and that if required to stay silent, he would walk out of the ground instead. I doubt very much he'd be alone

Gloucester at Stale too.

32 pages so far -god knows what it will be like on here when Tony "no regrets" Blair shuffles off.

Scamper - are they holding a minutes silence tomorrow night?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/9984619/Margaret-Thatcher-This-is-a-state-funeral-and-thats-a-mistake.html

I presume in the context it's OK to post a link from a paper which is barely better than the DM?

As he said in that article...

[i]If something looks, smells and tastes like a state funeral, then it is reasonable to conclude that it is one. [/i]

Indeed. They must think we're all *ing idiots. Actually.... thats hardly news, is it? We know they think we're all *ing idiots!

Perhaps something involving thousands of people chanting and running through the streets, burning cars, chucking petrol bombs, smashing things up and assaulting the police should be organised? But we must stress that it IS NOT a riot! 🙄

-god knows what it will be like on here when Tony "no regrets" Blair shuffles off.

I'd be interested to see if anyone will seek to disrupt the funeral. A silent protest is fine- and has potentially more impact as it will be picked up on cameras/media/reported. A disruptive attempt would be counter-productive.

Perhaps something involving thousands of people chanting and running through the streets, burning cars, chucking petrol bombs, smashing things up and assaulting the police should be organised? But we must stress that it IS NOT a riot!

Why don't they get G4S to run the funeral? Tories' fave, and that.

A silent protest is fine- and has potentially more impact as it will be picked up on cameras/media/reported.

People remaining quiet at a funeral will have an impact ?

I think any protesters can do what they like, as long as they're dressed like Munchkins from the Wizard of Oz.

A silent protest is fine

They should bus down all the ex miners to line the streets, then as the coffin goes past they can turn, face away and drop their trousers. That would be a fitting gesture....

I do wonder whether a lot of the people complaining about the "state" funeral are actually looking forwards to it and would actually have been disappointed if it had been a quiet private ceremony with no opportunity for them to protest.

There won't be any opportunity to protest - it'll be policed into the ground, and I'd bet any coaches from north of Watford will be stopped on the motorway.

Actually if I'm ****ing paying for it, I want the day off so I can watch it*.
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*go out on the bike

Protests will be allowed, just nowhere near the funeral procession. A car park in Stevenage or somewhere.

@BigButSlimmerBloke - had the same reaction when I heard it last night on the radio, almost caused a divorce as I exploded. Sir! Sir! Which ****wit put him on an honours list - MrsCat told me he inherited his knighthood.
Not possible, says I. Surely it's an individual honour given to someone of merit and valour. Heated discussion arises, spooning off the agenda!
But she was right, craven apology and coffee in bed this morning.
Seems it's an hereditary knighthood which he can carry about as well as use the term "Right Honourable"!
To date I have had a ambivalent/positive attitude towards gongs - but that has just made them completely valueless IMHO.

I do wonder whether a lot of the people complaining about the "state" funeral are actually looking forwards to it and would actually have been disappointed if it had been a quiet private ceremony with no opportunity for them to protest.

Have you read that Telegraph article? Clearly not.

This isn't a matter for peoples opinions, one way or another. Its a constitutional issue. She isn't entitled to a state funeral. She shouldn't be getting one. Its as simple as that.

You can't just go changing the rules because it suits you to do so, and expect people to just accept it! Typical ****ing Tory attitude though 🙄

To quote Oborne (hardly a bolshy Marxist, lefty, former miner or potential rioter) again...

I am afraid that the decision to turn Lady Thatcher’s funeral into a state occasion was a constitutional innovation and, like almost all such innovations, both foolish and wrong. Since it is too late to change minds, all one can do now is hope that next week’s funeral is not allowed to turn into a triumphalist Tory occasion that inflicts permanent damage on the monarchy and also our system of government.

He is not a Rt Hon as he is not a privy councillor. Dennis Thatcher was given a hereditary baronetcy shortly after Thatcher resigned. This was a compromise because the hereditary peerage traditionary offered to ex PMs wouldn't work with a female ex-PM.

all one can do now is hope that next week’s funeral is not allowed to turn into a triumphalist Tory occasion that inflicts permanent damage on the monarchy and also our system of government.

Au contraire: Probably the best thing that could possibly come from the whole debacle IMHO

This isn't a matter for peoples opinions, one way or another. Its a constitutional issue. She isn't entitled to a state funeral. She shouldn't be getting one. Its as simple as that.

What's that got to do with my point? I'm not actually suggesting she should get a state funeral, just pointing out that those who don't approve are in a way looking forwards to it. You appear to be reading hidden meaning into my comments which aren't there - why don't you try reading some of my previous comments to get a better idea of my thinking on this?

Though I am enjoying the referencing of a DT article.

My wife found out this morning that a friend who'd been suffering from cancer died yesterday. He'd suffred in a lot of pain because the drugs which could have made his life that bit more bearable aren't available on the NHS, because they are 'too expensive', and as he was 'terminal' not considered worthy of such expense. His family could not afford the drugs themselves.

I wonder how his family will feel when they watch £8 million being wasted on Thatcher's funeral.

Indeed Paul, I suspect a lot of people will be feeling the same.

Well, quite. Thatcher was paid well enough that her estate could pay for her funeral. A government handout instead of her having provided for herself would seem quite an insult to someone of her views...

EDIT **** me, I need a lie down and a cup of tea.

Proper tea is theft?

Aracer I don't think anyone who who does't approve is in any way secretly looking forwards to it. Or maybe a small minority.

I think Paul probably sums up most peoples objections. Plus a lot of people suspect, quite rightly, that it'll be turned into some kind of Tory victory parade, and thus typically insensitive, and incredibly offensive to large sections of society

The two main issues I have are:

1. People partying at someones funeral.
2. Getting a state funeral.

both could have been solved by a private funeral.

So, say you're at a rugby tournament this weekend and the organisers decide they're gonna have a minutes silence, what's the best way to not observe a minutes silence? Chat? Sing? Whistle? Fart loudly?

Sing Billy Bragg songs?

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