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It's not binary, answer could be either, neither or both.
Anyway, here here we go, this is the pic I was looking for of me earlier today contemplating these issues. Can't remember whether I was looking cross with this thread or just suppressing a fart:
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?w=1200[/img]
I think this evens everything out...
[url= http://i.imgur.com/m498jkV.jpg [/img][img] http://i.imgur.com/4DkbyxH.jp g" target="_blank">
^Niche 8O. (Thinks - is 'Mustafa' in fact concealing yet more puppies [i]inside[/i] his arms?)
And not really selling anything other than puppy love and weirdness? Like chaste nearly-sexy fun for plush-toy obsessed US teen girls who like daddy-figures? (Shudder)
I do hope that girls lying back on car-bonnets with their legs open while squirting foamy sponges down their cleavage will one day soon be more niche than not when it comes to selling cars/tyres. I mean, its a simply a product to transport people and stuff? And woman can drive now.
I do hope that girls lying back on car-bonnets with their legs open while squirting...
I stopped reading at this point as the outrage was too much.
Niche
Lol 🙂
The subsequent discussion is do the public get what the public want? Or does the public want what the public gets?
Very good question.
[quote=Malvern Rider ]The subsequent discussion is do the public get what the public want? Or does the public want what the public gets?
I don't get what this society wants
Maxxis babes , PAH!
It seems we haven't moved on much in the 100+ years since this sent gentleman velocipedes riders pulses a-racing
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Sorry that puppies and hot guys has got me thinking. I showed it to better half and she said 'is that for gay men?'
(Thinks further)
Back to 'Mustafa' with puppies for arms - I'm wondering if there isn't a niche Manga-style calendar/comic that has Mustafa vigorously appreciating pubescent Japanese robot-schoolgirls, his arms literally exploding into a flock of winged-puppies at the point of arrival...
(Too much thinking)
Future gender equality (post-feminist/post-reconstructed male) editions will be electronic and interactive where the viewer selects his/herm own characters, character gender/gender-preferences and outcomes ie. 'Mustafa the Transexual saves so many puppies from the evil clutches of marketeers that She explodes into a flock of unicorns!'
One final attempt to explain why I'm not comfortable with the calender (if anyone in this thread remembers what the debate was originally about)...
I've been groped on the tube. I've been flashed at on the train. I've been leered at on the bus. I've been harassed walking down the street. I've had men in cars shout things at me as they drive past. I've had comments when I'm on my bike. None of these experiences are unique - all of my female friends have similar tales.
Do I blame the calender for those experiences? Of course not.
But...
Do I see the calender as both symptomatic and supportive of a society that says it's ok to treat women like that? Absolutely.
Do I want the calender banned? No.
Do I hope that type of marketing finally dies out as support for it dies? Yes.
If anybody is still struggling to understand the above I honestly don't know what to suggest.
Fiona that (thankfully) puts this thread to shame, and (hopefully) to bed.
With you all the way Fionap. As a bloke I had literally NO IDEA that this sort of thing happens (because I wouldn't dream of doing it) until I got to be really good friends with a woman who works in the same role (but as a double female crew) as I have worked (ambo paramedic). Talking about it, I was aghast, literally gobsmacked at the casual and not so casual sexism that she experienced on shift, Every. Single. Day. Likewise, she was surprised that I wasn't aware of it happening. It's shocking, disgusting and endemic in our 'enlightened' society. The only saving grace is that it's becoming less acceptable, evidenced by the fact that it's not even as apparent when she works with a chap, which to me at least, suggests that the sexists know that it's unacceptable, and keep it inside when there's someone present who they can't trust to 'f'nar' along with them. The whole thing really pisses me off.
Good post fionap.
Helps to illustate the point I've been trying to get across. I think that many of the posters here have no idea how society can affect women, because they aren't one. They need to listen to the viewpoints of women rather than dismiss them (as they did with the article on the calendar). As V8 has.
hich to me at least, suggests that the sexists know that it's unacceptable, and keep it inside when there's someone present who they can't trust to 'f'nar' along with them.
Yep. We look to our peers and society for validation when we do things. Things die out when society considers it unacceptable. The calendar helps to validate sexist ideas and actions.
I think with fionap's post I'm out - if some people really don't get it after that, then there's pretty much nothing else which can be said to persuade them.
This
And it's BECAUSE women have been battling the idea that they are eye candy for men more than they are people for centuries (and still are) this is why it's bad. Because it's reinforcing the negative ideas that other women still suffer from.
As the Original poster, this is what I was hoping people would understand, that there are wider consequences for what some would look upon as innocent actions due to an attitude ingrained by society...which is changing, though clearly leaving a significant number behind.
Some here a clearly too intellectually challenged to realise that.
The condescension from this little band above is absolutely incredible. There is nothing to 'get'.
This quote here deserves some more introspection and i think is the heart of this entire debate.
Do I see the calender as both symptomatic and supportive of a society that says it's ok to treat women like that? Absolutely.
Coupled with the notion that men can't 'get it' because we don't experience sexism (that again is another story but we'll not go down that little garden path).
Perhaps women can't 'get' that not all men see the images such as those in that calendar and instantly feel it is their place to demean all women and put them in the kitchen. And don't bother replying fionap - you cant possibly know because you're a woman so if you do your just belittling the opinions of men... (Clearly this little bit is going to be taken out of context. Fill your boots. You'll only look clever to other fools - not aimed at fionap by the way).
Men do get groped by women but as, for want of a better way of putting it, the dominant sex it is far less of a problem, though still pretty unpleasant. No one in their right mind condones gropes or any of the other demeaning behavior you have posted above. My opinion is that calendar doesn't condone, encourage or otherwise validate this nasty behavior by some nasty people. Other nasty people do.
Perhaps the men arguing so strongly against it have to suppress such thoughts whilst others don't? I don't know. Just a theory.
Banning, or if you insist, preventing the sale of, such calendars does nothing to address the underlying issue.
The logical conclusion of your argument by Reductio ad absurdum is that women and perhaps men too wear some sort of form concealing clothing whenever they might be seen in public.
I quite agree with the sentiment binners.
I'm sure we can squeeze a bit more out of this topic...plenty of life left in this thread yet 🙂
And don't bother replying fionap - you cant possibly know because you're a woman
Oh, I can help you there then. Speaking as a man and therefore meeting your criterion for understanding, you're talking absolute bollocks.
cougar - you're a moderator. Care to moderate?
You're not men though are you. You are one man. As am I. I have my opinion, you have yours.
There is nothing to 'get'
Fionap and V8's testimony suggests otherwise - there is an issue.
Coupled with the notion that men can't 'get it' because we don't experience sexism
Several men on here DO get it, so that notion is nonsense. In fact it's mostly men who are trying to explain it to you.
Perhaps women can't 'get' that not all men see the images such as those in that calendar and instantly feel it is their place to demean all women and put them in the kitchen.
No, I'm sure most women do get it. But no-one's alleging that. You're extrapolating what people are saying to unreasonable degree.
1) We all know, men and women, that the calendar isn't going to MAKE anyone suddenly change their minds about women and become a chauvinist. That would be absolutely ridiculous and as intelligent people we know that's clearly not happening. No-one's saying it is.
2) The point we're trying to make is that whilst not converting men into apes, the calendar reinforces bad behaviour. I can't put it any simpler than that.
I'm not trying to be an arsehole here but you really do need to relax a bit and treat this as an intellectual discussion, not a row. I'm not trying to score points over you, I'm just explaining how I see it. I hate these angry fist-swinging fights, all I want is a reasonable discussion.
Perhaps the men arguing so strongly against it have to suppress such thoughts whilst others don't? I don't know. Just a theory.
That doesn't help, and suggests you are either very wound up or you want a fight more than a discussion. Do you?
Mods - I think this thread needs closing. Not because its gone on too long or that Binners has been abusive to Cumberlanddan..but that I fear Binners may have a heat attack in his clearly apoplectic state... 😀
molgrips - I'm not the one getting overexcited here 😆
I've tried to make sensible posts and most of the responses are nitpicked and accusatory beyond belief. People have been taking offence left right and centre over nothing. I might have a had a couple of little digs when provoked but thats all.
As for the point above, it's a serious point. Its not an accusation and someone has already hinted at it back in the thread.
Beyond the immediate "oh look, some girls in bikinis" reaction, the calendar inspires absolutely no further judgment on women from my part. Its all about context innit.
I dunno, it has moments of clarity in-between the rants.
Where are you from edenvalleyboy?
The reason I get so bloody angry is that I don't want my daughters, or anyone elses for that matter, growing up in world with neolithic cockwombles like Dan in it. Where casual sexism is perfectly acceptable, in fact something to be staunchly defended at all costs.Celebrated even. As if being a massively offensive, misogynistic dickhead is somehow a basic human right.
Attitudes like this should have been consigned to the dustbin of history decades ago
I think this has turned into probably [i]the[/i] most ridiculous thread I've ever seen on here and cannot believe it's been allowed to get to 26(!) pages of pointless arguing.
Which is a pity really, as the main subject is quite serious!
My last day at work today though so i thankfully won't be drawn into reading more of this durge!!
Merry Christmas.
fionap
Do I want the calender banned? No.
Do I hope that type of marketing finally dies out as support for it dies? Yes.
and 6 posts later...
cumberlanddan
Banning, or if you insist, preventing the sale of, such calendars...
Don't feed the troll.
binners - MemberThe reason I get so bloody angry is that I don't want my daughters, or anyone else for that matter growing up in world with neolithic cockwombles like Dan in it. Where casual sexism is perfectly acceptable, in fact something to be staunchly defended at all costs, celebrated even. As if being a massively offensive, misogynistic dickhead is somehow a basic human right
I could and probably should give a very short answer to that.
It seems you think that
being a massively offensive... ...dickhead is somehow a basic human right
Your precious daughters. I hope mine never meet yours. Pillock.
I'd be interested to see you justify half of that tripe. Perhaps you can find another witty picture from the 70's?
Which is a pity really, as the main subject is quite serious
Yes, it is, which is why it deserves a better analysis then tits=sexism.
@cumberlanddan - I guess you're referring to my username... I lived for a few years in Appleby and was living there when I set up this account...not in that area now though (sadly)...you weren't planning to stalk me were you? 😀
I've been groped on the tube. I've been flashed at on the train. I've been leered at on the bus. I've been harassed walking down the street. I've had men in cars shout things at me as they drive past. I've had comments when I'm on my bike. None of these experiences are unique - all of my female friends have similar tales
I'm been gropped in a bus station, I've had my bum pinched when working in clubs (photographer), I've had woman try to put their hands up my kilt, I've had comments made when I've been on my bike. Sorry but sexual harrasmint isn't just limited to woman. Thats the attitude of people and sexy calandars to not supporting the sexist element in sociaty. Using secy attractive people so sell products won't ever end and I hope it doesn't as thats censorship. I do hope the world becomes equal and people are no longer sexist (to both sexes)
Trying to be serious for a moment...perhaps one of the issues at stake here, is people with one viewpoint trying to tell others how to behave or think. That's what I really didn't like about the original STW article.
Telling someone how to behave is perhaps a good thing. If a person's behaviour is having a negative impact on another person.
However, telling someone how or what to think isn't acceptable in my book.
I don't think it is acceptable for someone else to tell me (or anyone else) how to think, as long as I (or other people) don't offend someone else by my words or actions.
ie. a person can think and believe whatever they want. that's their business and no-one else's. As long as their belief doesn't then impact negatively on another person.
eg. If I wander round to someones private workshop/garage and he's got a erotic calendar on the wall and he/she believes that is ok, then that's their business and it's not for me to tell them what they should and shouldn't think.
eg. If someone down the pub is making sexist comments in front of other people, that is unacceptable, as their behaviour is negatively impacting other people.
Discuss?
skydragon - has it.
From my seat I've been told what I am and am not allowed to think which I find to be less than ideal.
I've also been told that I think lots of things which I don't think and that those things are unacceptable and offensive so I should change what I think even though I don't think those things in the first place.
Its all very confusing.
Have you been on the internet before?
The only thing that surprises me is that nobody has started a petition
We're slacking.
But just for Danny Boy.....
[img] 
?partner=allrovi.com[/img]
Now put your knickers on and make me a cup of tea
*slaps dans arse*
Beyond the immediate "oh look, some girls in bikinis" reaction, the calendar inspires absolutely no further judgment on women from my part.
Yes, but we're not talking about you specifically here. I think you'd be surprised by the attitudes of some men. The ones Fiona and V8 are talking about, perhaps.
Sorry but sexual harrasmint isn't just limited to woman.
Yep - this is well known.
neolithic cockwombles like Dan
Honestly binners, I don't think he is sexist. The reason he doesn't get it is precisely because he ISN'T sexist - he has no idea that there's a problem.
Yes, it is, which is why it deserves a better analysis then tits=sexism.
I agree, which is why I've been explaining that the whole thread! Also why I haven't walked away.
From my seat I've been told what I am and am not allowed to think
I'm sorry, we're really not communicating well at all, and I apologise for that. I think a more careful reading is required. I personally am not telling you what to think - I'm trying to explain what other people think.
pirelli are now doing it for empowering reasons apparently...
http://www.redbull.com/us/en/motorsports/stories/1331762864384/pirelli-calendar-2016
I can't resist skydragon's last post.....
The original article was not telling you how to think, it was her telling you what she thought and HER opinion. She can do this and you can disagree with HER viewpoint but what is not reasonable is to tell her she can't have that view point or that she has no right to voice an opinion. She has stated what she would like to happen to the practice of advertising in this manner (note advertising), which has been echoed by a number of women, myself included.
I have no idea how this can be construed as censorship, banning or telling people how they should think.
The original article was not telling you how to think, it was her telling you what she thought and HER opinion. She can do this and you can disagree with HER viewpoint but what is not reasonable is to tell her she can't have that view point or that she has no right to voice an opinion.
Ginger - Thanks, good point.
I guess my issue is that I don't read a MTB magazine/forum to be informed of feminist viewpoints. I don't want to hear Adele's feminist views, thanks. No offence intended to Adele, who has a right to think and believe whatever she wants.
Just the same I wouldn't want to read an article about how finding God had improved someone's jump skills (no offence intended to the religious forum members)
Back to my point of think what you want, but don't preach.
Slow down ginger or you'll end up like binners! Have a look at molgrips last one.
I know there is a problem. I know some horrible sexist and racist people and the worst ones don't seem to be the ones who make lots of noise about it. They are far more subtle and conniving and that is a real issue.
Just for those who don't get rhetoric, banishing calendars like this just gives the noisy ones something to get upset about i.e. pc gone mad, censorship arguments (which are not completely untrue in my opinion) and gives the nasty little bastards oxygen to go about their business.
So yes, it is an issue but the calendar and sexual imagery generally is not a symptom of it, in my view (though obviously there are examples where it is such as pornography depicting rape and that sort of thing).
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Reading this thread I think I might go home and cry, for humanity.
Ok Dan so you more or less agree. It's just that you don't think the calendar is in the 'negative' category.
I do, but it's very subtle. Problem is the more subtle stuff is the most pervasive, cos everyone thinks it's fine. And the 'it's just a bit of fun' defence was pretty much worn out in the 70s.
From my seat I've been told what I am and am not allowed to think which I find to be less than ideal.
You're not being told what you should think. Rather, you're being asked to start thinking.
Of course "not all men" equate a glamorous photoshoot with women being subservient / inferior. But plenty do, so whilst the likes of you and I are no doubt shining beacons of male feminism that doesn't mean there isn't a problem elsewhere.
And, of course men experience sexism. I've had my arse (and worse) grabbed by women in pubs and clubs before now, for example, and Hen Party type groups can be pretty forthright and intimidating. I expect many other guys have too.
But the point you seemed determined to overlook is, just because this happens occasionally doesn't mean that there's parity. I can count the number of times it's happened to me on the fingers of, at a wildly vague estimate, both hands. If you were to ask your average woman how many inappropriate comments or unwanted sexual advances they'd experienced you'd probably get a similar figure for this month. And that's the difference, right there.
I think as a nation we're still broadly fairly twitchy and prudish when it comes to sex and sexuality, and I look forward to a day when that's no longer the case. But as I said at the outset, perhaps we just need to take a step back before we can go forwards. Once we finally establish that "laddish" (or indeed, ladetteish) behaviour may be fine in a Blackpool nightclub but isn't acceptable in polite company then we perhaps we can have nice things again.
banishing calendars
Is your browser set to write-only or something?
Er yes. In your opinion!
Having not been around in the 70's I really wouldn't know, though from media references and the rest it seems it wasn't calendars but an actual attitude of discrimination which was the problem. To me, the imagery and the attitude correlate but theres no causality.
Could it simply be that we're from different eras so have a different frame of reference?
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