[Closed] That Maxxis "babes calendar" article...

I don't get it...

Clearly. And lots of men still don't it seems.

It's pathetic that these kind of calenders are still being produced. Got two daughters aged 6 & 10 and the oldest one has noticed how women are portrayed in the media and in advertising. When the wife and I have discussed with her why this is the case, I'm kind of embarrassed that in this days and age women are still objectified in the way that men aren't. I want them to grow up in a world where men and women are truly equal but this is so far from the case. The role of women in movies being a case in point and a particular bugbear of mine, where too often women are there just to be eye candy or as someone's wife/girlfriend. Far too many movies fail the Bechtel test, thankfully many us tv dramas give women at least equal status.

what does this have to do with selling bike tyres?

About as much as ringing bells has to do with dog food.

's a conditioned response designed to make you look.
Once they get you to look they're halfway there.

It's all about the underlying message. With adverts like this, Maxxis are basically ignoring women except as sexy accessories. It's the same as the podium girls thing.

Even if you reckon it's purely aimed at the motoring market, last time I went to the tyre fitters there were as many women there as men. It's pretty stupid to sideline 50% of your potential market like that.

Is this some sort of sop by the tyre company, ie they know they can't feature nipples so consider this will be deemed acceptable as the next best thing?

Strikes me that they're so hard of thinking by not realising this is the 21st century nor realising that there's some seriously talented females riding bikes who're winning medals. Nothing like alienating potential customers is there?

I thought it was a case that there was a small percentage of people who actually bothered to buy calendars like the Maxxis one, then at the other end of the spectrum a small percentage of people who were vocal about their dislike of them; most people were in the middle who just roll their eyes at them and then carry on with their day as they were 😕

cumberlanddan - Member
Its not a commercial product. Its a charity calendar, as I understand it.

Obviously Maxxis imagine that the exposure the brand gets is worth the cost of production.

May as well have taken out a full page add in Readers Wives the way some are reacting...

It's not hard to see why it has angered a woman/some womyn though.

Their passion/hobby; freedom and adrenaline on two wheels out in the woods, where everyone is equal. Something I'm sure plenty of women would enjoy, they should be encouraged to take up the sport. Be nice to think.

But, here's a calendar full of pictures of naked women, from your favorite tyre manufacturer. "This is what we think of women" - their only place in our sport is to sell tyres to lads/cumberlanddan etc. etc.

OK, but what does this have to do with selling bike tyres? Pushing a bit further, what does this have to do with promoting products and services?

You like looking at the image of nice lady, while she's wearing ORANGE underwear with ORANGE maxxis logos all over the place and probably near some maxxis products...

Who says the main subject matter in a promotion needs to be just your product nothing else?

Also, it's maybe not a masterminded example of marketing, and just, you know, a colander with 'interesting' images.

@glasgowdan, is that one pointed at me? If so, you're wrong. I am fully aware of what an emotional sales proposition is and the role of creativity in advertising. Use of boobs to flog tyres it ain't! If you have an interest in advertising, check [url= https://news.osu.edu/news/2015/07/21/sex-violence/ ]this study[/url].

It's the same mentality that has podium girls at the stage end of bike races, pretty girls draped over cars at motorshows and attractive women holding umbrellas over drivers in pit lanes of motor races. Utterly vile practices, nauseating in their outdatedness. Who is responsible for perpetuating these archaic displays of sexism when they should have died long ago..?

But the counterpoint is, what if Maxxis had printed a companion "Maxxis Hunks" calendar

If anyone can be bothered to look, and I certainly can't i'm pretty sure you'll find 'girls' branded up in skin tight clothing for any purveyor of goods to the motor industry, not just Maxxis. Pit lanes, podiums, serving drinks etc. I'm pretty sure Maxis don't deserve to be singled out for it.

EDIT - ****ing links....
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=continental-girls

There is no mention of bicycle tyres anywhere

I hope this is because their market research has shown that cyclists don't go for this stuff. Hopefully it is not because the cycling tyres are a tiny part of their business.

The airbrush game is strong and the bios are great:

[i]As well as being a proud Maxxis Babe I do quite a bit of modelling and other promotional stuff, as well working in Top Shop part-time.[/i]

ffs

You like looking at the image of nice lady, while she's wearing ORANGE underwear with ORANGE maxxis logos all over the place and probably near some maxxis products...

Right, so when at the tyre shop, is this going to inspire you to choose Maxxis over Schwalbe?

My argument is not that advertising has to be literal. Far from! UK advertising has a fine history of depicting product benefits in interesting and attractive ways. My point is that Maxxis could do so much more because people have good feelings towards the brand (established through use of their products).

But, here's a calendar full of pictures of naked women, from your favorite tyre manufacturer. "This is what we think of women" - their only place in our sport is to sell tyres to lads/cumberlanddan etc. etc.

Just because they've produced the calendar, doesn't mean they think - "This is what we think of women" or that they would like anyone else to think that. The only people who seem think that are the people with the issue. Again, we're not (all) stupid enough to let a naked picture affect how we treat or see women in the real world.

Just because they've produced the calendar, doesn't mean they think - "This is what we think of women"

It does, you know. That's exactly what it says.

most seem to be missing the point that actually its an example of positive discrimination. If you are a pretty but dim lady you can earn a good wage getting ya mams ooot for marketing. If you were a pretty but thick bloke, you'd be collecting your benefits with the jeremy kyle generation.

see job creation for the otherwise unemployable, its like a modern TOWIE version of a Victorian workhouse.

Here is such calendars in there natural habitat.
I personally prefer dog calendars at home. But have admired the nudey lady variety when visiting factories.
[url=

is what it is.[/url]

Junkyard - comes under the Sexual Discrimination Act.
[url= http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/documents/employers/sexual_harassment_managers_questions.pdf ]Equal Opportunities Commission's LINK[/url] Page 24 - Its now been updated to include images of men so I take back my comment on the workplace being unfair.

"? Demeaning or sexual images of men and women, for example on calendars,
photos or posters, in public parts of the workplace, or downloading pornographic
material onto computers.

? Using sexually explicit or degrading language, whether or not it is directed at an individual
– even in workplaces where strong language and sexual references are the norm.

? Passing around lewd jokes by email, whether or not they are personally directed at particular individuals.

? Ridiculing or demeaning someone over their personal appearance.

? Demeaning someone by acting on or verbalising stereotypical perceptions about their
race – such as physique, personal appearance, sexual prowess (this could be both sexual
and racial harassment).

? Invading a person’s private life with intrusive personal comments and questions. "

Again, we're not (all) stupid enough to let a naked picture affect how we treat or see women in the real world.

Even more reason for it not to exist then.

Right, so when at the tyre shop, is this going to inspire you to choose Maxxis over Schwalbe?

My argument is not that advertising has to be literal. Far from! UK advertising has a fine history of depicting product benefits in interesting and attractive ways. My point is that Maxxis could do so much more because people have good feelings towards the brand (established through use of their products).

probably wouldn't sway me one way or the other. Come on, this is a novelty item, not a major marketing campaign led advertisement for maxxis tyres.

Again, we're not (all) stupid enough to let a naked picture affect how we treat or see women in the real world.

🙄

Again, we're not (all) stupid enough to let a naked picture affect how we treat or see women in the real world.

the point is over this way ---> "I want women to feel that mountain biking is an appealing option and not some sort of boys’ club where we have to sneak in through the back door and hope no one notices us. It’s a better sport than that, with better people in it (because many men find this type of marketing off putting as well). And I want brands to make us feel welcome because our money is as good as anyone else’s."

Come on, this is a novelty item, not a major marketing campaign led advertisement for maxxis tyres.

True, but as others are pointing out (oddly in defence of Maxxis), it is indicative of a wider issue in sports marketing.

I might be off the mark here, but it doesn't have to be this way. Dirt magazine always seemed to me to reflect the interests of men and women who like biking.

(Awaits someone to prove me wrong!)

doris's "backdoor" anyone? 😆

Why single out criticism for Maxxis and not Continental, Michelin and more than likely all the rest. At least this calendar is for charity.

This attitude that having a calendar like this somehow says the company doesn't value women is a strange idea. I think it says more about the holder of the opinion then the company in question.

Ultimately I don’t want to advertise your tyres on my bike while you carry on like this. You make me look stupid. You make me feel stupid.

[img] ?partner=allrovi.com[/img]

There are some things in the world which will offend us. The quicker we learn this, the happier we'll be.

you are welcome to have a sniff of my backdoor any time. but i was just quoting the original article, as linked to in the first post. The one that actually has a women's point of view, rather than a bunch of blokes telling them what they should or shouldn't be offended by

The fact of the matter is if Maxxis had got the likes of the Athertons (not rachael), Peaty, et Al topless in the calendar this thread wouldn't even have started!
Well it might...
But more in the thread of (poncey twunts making us middle aged fat accountants look bad) vein.

And we're back to the double standards again.

Don't forget that Pirelli did their famous calendar with the girls having tire treads painted on their bodies.
That was hailed as ground breaking and originals fetch a lot of money.
Still plenty of nipples and mounds to be seen though as they were fully naked back then.

Glad I've just brought some Butchers.

I'll not be buying Maxxis again unless I'm desperate.

Well after that nudie pic of Gee, I'm never buying commencal, shimano, fox or continental again. Disgusting pigs.

The fact of the matter is if Maxxis had got the likes of the Athertons (not rachael), Peaty, et Al topless in the calendar this thread wouldn't even have started!
Well it might...
But more in the thread of (poncey twunts making us middle aged fat accountants look bad) vein.

And that's kind of the point: there would have been some relevance to sporting prowess, endeavour and aspiration. A better example would have been Peaty and co. in their kegs. Admittedly that would be kind of funny as a one-off 🙂 , but only because it is not the norm in how men are depicted in sports marketing.

binners - Member

Just because they've produced the calendar, doesn't mean they think - "This is what we think of women"

It does, you know. That's exactly what it says.

Maybe you should email their marketing manager to let them know you think they dont value women enough

Here is her [url= https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=ADEAAAR_aDUBVoKRt1AmiLmx8CRm0vOdcUMSvC8&authType=name&authToken=FAex&locale=en_US&srchid=2118663601450286252597&srchindex=3&srchtotal=206&trk=vsrp_people_res_name&trkInfo=VSRPsearchId%3A2118663601450286252597%2CVSRPtargetId%3A75458613%2CVSRPcmpt%3Aprimary%2CVSRPnm%3Afalse%2CauthType%3Aname ]linkedin profile[/url]...

cheers hammy for the link[quote=cumberlanddan ]Why single out criticism for Maxxis and not Continental, Michelin and more than likely all the rest. At least this calendar is for charity.
This attitude that having a calendar like this somehow says the company doesn't value women is a strange idea. I think it says more about the holder of the opinion then the company in question.
TBH I dont GAS what you think
They are being singled out as they are the only one being discussed I am happy to generalise and say all sexist calendars are sexist. I am not sure why i need to do this but you must think more of me now that i have stated the obvious a d that means the world to me

do you miss the 70's?

No probs Junkyard.
Anyway - I've got dunkers. Digestive anyone?

Junkyard - lazarus

TBH the world would be a better place if we just ignored the egomaniac

[i]or[/i]

Junkyard - lazarus

TBH the world would be a better place if we just ignored the egomaniac

I don't know if i got the quote things right...

Soon we'll be a cultural wasteland where everybody just talks about the weather as one is afraid to express their views in case of offending someone.

There are some belters on that calendar to be quite honest....i mean, who really cares....men subconsciously check women out all the time and according to my female friends women do it just as much.

Its going to charity, everyone involved in consenting. What really is the problem??

Men look at women.
Women look at men.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of titillation for both genders!

Lighten up FFS!!

I'd click a 'like' button to that Ferris. World gone mad

[img] [/img]

Soon we'll be a cultural wasteland where everybody just talks about the weather as one is afraid to express their views in case of offending someone.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

Junkyard - lazarus
cheers hammy for the link
cumberlanddan » Why single out criticism for Maxxis and not Continental, Michelin and more than likely all the rest. At least this calendar is for charity.
This attitude that having a calendar like this somehow says the company doesn't value women is a strange idea. I think it says more about the holder of the opinion then the company in question.
TBH I dont GAS what you think
They are being singled out as they are the only one being discussed I am happy to generalise and say all sexist calendars are sexist. I am not sure why i need to do this but you must think more of me now that i have stated the obvious a d that means the world to me
do you miss the 70's?

If I was going to make a point about being easily offended...

So, let's take this to the (il)logical conclusion, boycott Maxxis, despite the fact that every other tyre manufacturer does essentially the same thing. Bit pointless and futile no?

Funnily enough, I don't miss the 70s because I wasn't born til the next decade.

Maybe you should email their marketing manager to let them know you think they dont value women enough

Here is her linkedin profile...

Yeah, because progressive marketing ideas like this come from the female marketing manager. Of course they do. I've got enough experience in exactly this type of environment to know exactly where this will have come from.

Heres how it goes....

The board will have taken a number of their biggest customers on an away day for a new product launch or whatever. After a days golf, and having been at the bar for the night, maybe going on to Spearmint Rhino afterwards, some bright spark will have come up with a flash of inspiration at 2 in the morning.

Still in a haze the next morning they announce this inspired idea to the marketing department, who will respond with a collective eye-roll and a muttered 'oh FFS!!', but will just do it anyway, because you choose your battles, and you're unlikely to change anyones mind in a bunch of inherently institutionally mysoginistic, rich, late 50's white males, who in a drunken stupor suddenly imagine they're marketing guru's

Seen it a thousand times. I'd put my house on it! 🙄

Grum, unfortunately we do not live in a world of logic.....so that doesn't really work does it?! 🙂

Can I just say I'm offended at Binners suggesting a female marketing manager is too weak to be able to enforce her viewpoint? Maybe she's just bloody good at what she does and has some evidence this really works.

Oh FFS!

Tell you what... lets stick with that entirely realistic and believable narrative that's going on in your head

What would I know?

I'm out....

But, here's a calendar full of pictures of naked women, from your favorite tyre manufacturer.

Point of order, I was under the impression they were merely skimpily dressed; certainly that's what the maxxisbabes.co.uk link earlier would suggest, that the photos are no more pornographic than your average pit lane or Hooters restaurant. Is that not the case?

Correct Cougar.

Thats the whole point and stated on the FB post lots - they aren't topless/naked.
As an aside - Bikini Boulderers.
Check it out.
Not a single - not one bad comment about them.
The fact that they are all very, very highly respected and seriously good climbers/boulderers doing what they love in the clothing that they mainly wear in the full sunshine, whilst bouldering and just happen to have started a massive following doing so.
But no feminists spewing their distaste over it.
No threads pages long extolling the skill sets of those who decided to come up with it.
Because they came up with it themselves - those very talented girls who are in the pics and now get to show the climbing community many of the beautiful places around the world where they climb.
They just happen to climb in bikinis 😆

good grief. dont look at the monster energy girls..
Are they exploited? Do they get paid less than their male counterparts? Is there gender equality? Has someone put a gun to their heads or got them hooked on drugs?

Dont like their marketing then dont buy their products and vote with your wallet.

Yes there are calendars from the Warwick rowers and that horse riding club. And plenty from Kelly brook etc.
Is it ok to use sex to sell when its for charity? Should we stop using the line coke and hookers as that is also degrading to women. arrrghhhh gp2 gp2

Is there gender equality?

NeanderthalTrackWorld

Apparently lots of woman get their jollies reading erotic fiction.
Are they objectifying men, or sexist knuckle draggers.

Do you like a saucy book cinnamon girl?

As a father of two young daughters I can say in all honesty that this is the most profoundly depressing thread I've ever read on this forum.

I just despair in the attitudes being expressed by some of you

Mind you, as a signpost to point out complete tools to be avoided at all costs, this is right up there with private number plate ownership. So every cloud eh? 😀

Yes binners, funnily enough we can all be judgmental.

Profoundly depressing? Why?

As the father of one young daughter, this is one of the most irrelevant threads to her life I can imagine. Or am I not qualified enough for an opinion?

If you read the front page article, Adele Mitchell explains, in a very straightforward and unsensational way, why she objects to this marketing material. You have to be particularly hard of understanding not to follow her argument, even if you don't agree with it.
I think she's pushing at an open door and Maxxis are on the wrong side of history here. They'll get a short term bump from the controversy, but long term it just makes them look a bit old fashioned and out of touch.

I was having a great brand experience with you.

A what?

kcr - its not a bad article but there are a couple of things wrong with it in my opinion.

1 its a bit OTT to suggest that it somehow makes her look bad to use maxxis tyres
2 if she is willing to take the position that by using a product she tacitly gives her approval to everything they do, then she'd better be very careful about a lot of other products

(because we don’t just talk about hair straightners and men)

I just despair in the attitudes being expressed by some of you

They are simply not man enough to live in the new century.

I have been struggling for a while now to put into words why this sort of advertising is damaging and deeming towards women and men. The best way I can think of is to explain how the objectification of males and females differ.

When a man is objectified he is generally seen as strong, and in a position of power, he is able to demand attention and is considered to be good at getting what he wants. If his sexual prowess is considered it is usually in a positive light, he is a "stud" for want of a better word. He is generally viewed as dominant and in control.

When a woman is objectified she is usually in a submissive pose, there to be controlled. If she is using her sexuality to try to show power she is seen negatively as promiscuous, possibly even "asking for it". The woman is there for the pleasure of the man, to enable him to feel powerful and dominant.

How many glamour models are younger women? How many lusted after men are on the older side?

There is also the issue that whilst many women who work in the glamour industry feel empowered and that they are taking men for fools, there are many other women without that self-confidence. It is those women who suffer at the hands of men who believe they have the right to dominate women and tell them how they should behave. Teenage girls who feel they have to shave themselves because it is what their boyfriends expect from what they've seen in the magazines/online. Men who expect their women to passively respond to their search for power or dominance.

Yes, thankfully most men are wiser than this, unfortunately many are not and it is those men who cause the damage.

Apologies if this rambled, I got a bit carried away! I hope I got my point across.

They are simply not man enough to live in the new century.

I bet half of them don't even moisturise either.

I dispair having children and looking at the state of the world but rather than rely on other people to alter their opinions I'd educate the children to make the change to benefit the generation.

I feel women also play a part in via the media / fashion.

When a man is objectified he is generally seen as strong, and in a position of power, he is able to demand attention and is considered to be good at getting what he wants. If his sexual prowess is considered it is usually in a positive light, he is a "stud" for want of a better word. He is generally viewed as dominant and in control.

When a woman is objectified she is usually in a submissive pose, there to be controlled. If she is using her sexuality to try to show power she is seen negatively as promiscuous, possibly even "asking for it". The woman is there for the pleasure of the man, to enable him to feel powerful and dominant.

This pretty much sums it up. Of course now with equality on the agenda, this pretty much messes up the "traditional" gender roles, which is why in that bbc6 program there are men with serious issues.

I bet half of them don't even moisturise either.

[url= http://www.superdrug.com/Brut/Brut-After-Shave-100ml/p/343194?gclid=CJ7M0_2q4ckCFc-6GwodNPAOzA&gclsrc=aw.ds ]The Brut's.[/url]

Synopsis?

[URL= http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/twinair/13.jp g" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/twinair/13.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

dont look at the monster energy girls..
Are they exploited? Do they get paid less than their male counterparts? Is there gender equality?

I don't know if the Monster Energy models get paid less than their male counterparts (first you'd have to work out who their counterparts are) on the day that they work there. We do know that women generally get paid about 10-20% less than men: http://www.equalpayportal.co.uk/statistics/

Kona that Stat isn't as cut and dry as you thin a few exceptionally highly paid individuals vastly increase the male average earnings and skew the figures.

Also women leaving the work force etc when they have children rejoining later on reduced hours or a job share also affects the female average as it's more unusual for men to do this.

As for the calendar, don't much care for it, wouldn't put it up at home.

I caused a stir when I had my team remove the boobs and bits out calendars from the work shop based on the thought if they want that stuff they have plenty of wall at home so don't need to use the ones at work, it's not the perception I want people to have when they visit the work place.

Kona that Stat isn't as cut and dry as you thin a few exceptionally highly paid individuals vastly increase the male average earnings and skew the figures.

Who is Adele Mitchell?

1 its a bit OTT to suggest that it somehow makes her look bad to use maxxis tyres

2 if she is willing to take the position that by using a product she tacitly gives her approval to everything they do, then she'd better be very careful about a lot of other products

[url= http://adelemitchell.com/2010/07/29/lisa-snowdon-spa-fabulous-and-being-late/ ]adele on lisa snowdon[/url]

Here she is gushing over Lisa Snowdon who is not shy about putting her wares on show.
I wonder if she fired her off an email about letting her down.
[url= http://strictlycomedancing.info/celebrity-dancers/series-6/lisa-snowdon-4/ ]lisa snowdon[/url]

No Kona, I didn't!! No Kona, I didn't!!

Stupid mobile signal! 😳

argh!!! For some reason my post won't show on here!! Right I'll try this!!!

I had more to say!!

[URL= http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s554/Wookster31/9DC42D77-B5E2-4BC3-BCED-73331AACC337_zpsnx0qmzxq.jp g" target="_blank">http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s554/Wookster31/9DC42D77-B5E2-4BC3-BCED-73331AACC337_zpsnx0qmzxq.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]

5 pages and no pics... WTF.

TBH I'm pretty much bemused by the attitudes on here... It's a charity cancer made for non-profit to raise assistance for Macmillan. The girls would have been paid well for their time and obviously in their chosen career path.

STW being FAR to politically correct as usual.

The delicate soul should really have done a bit of research before buying the tyres as the Maxxis Babes look to have been going for some time...

I've designed many calendars over the years - some arty and creative some just with dates and nice pictures. If i was given the task of creating a calendar for a performance tyre supplier, who wanted to sell it to make as much money as possible for charity, i'd struggle to come up with something more suitable. Sure you could do something more creative/clever but there would be no doubt be 'costs' involved and there's no guarantee anyone would buy it. From the branding side, Maxxis doen't seem to be a creative/clever type of client - they sell tyres so i'd imagine anything too highbrow would be wasted on them.

From my perspective, it's badly laid out, with poor photography/photoshopppping, doesn't look to be a great print job [i]and[/i] the girls are orange!!! But i'm not offended by it in a sexual way nor am i likely to stop using my Sid the Sexist Minion + HR combo.

p.s. I don't have any daughters and am a male man.

Let's not forget that a lot of ladies in this sport like ladies too!

[b]OI! Put your knickers on and make me a cup of tea![/b]

[img] [/img]

I've not read all the posts, but there is a bit of an irony that as I got to the bottom of Adele's article and the comments, there is a "related stories" set of links that take you to STW forum threads. The first is a picture of a naked Julia Bradbury, the second is Rachel Atherton looking glam in a nice dress next to her bike, and the third is a female MTB'r stood in her shorts and bra top by her bike, the link of which is for comments in the Daily Mail.

Just thought I'd mention it....

As an aside - Bikini Boulderers.
Check it out.
Not a single - not one bad comment about them.
The fact that they are all very, very highly respected and seriously good climbers/boulderers doing what they love in the clothing that they mainly wear in the full sunshine, whilst bouldering and just happen to have started a massive following doing so.
But no feminists spewing their distaste over it.
No threads pages long extolling the skill sets of those who decided to come up with it.
Because they came up with it themselves - those very talented girls who are in the pics and now get to show the climbing community many of the beautiful places around the world where they climb.
They just happen to climb in bikinis

None of that's true though, is it? The Bikini Boulderers took staged photos in their smalls because outside of those who like on the beach [b]noone[/b] who's not DWS-ing climbs mostly in their bikini because at the first sign of a shitty topout you'd lose most of the skin on your body. They amassed a big following because they made a calculated attempt to cash in on their looks and willingness to pose in bikinis - emphatically not their climbing abilities. The majority of their photos were posed bumbling around on 5+s and below - no idea if this changed - a quick look at their feed suggests that they'vew deleted all of their pictures and gone quiet. Looking at the "liked by" it reveals a few of the more misogynistic of my climbing friends are the only people I know who Liked them.

There's also plenty of the same issues in the climbing community - see for instance the earning power of Sierra Blair-Coyle and the likes of Sasha Digiulian. Both you, attractive women, one quite a good climber, the other an absolutely world class climber but the former is willing to pose in her bikini a lot so she generates a lot of attention. As a wishy washy metric SBC has half as many facebook followers again as SD. You can compare that with any number of other female climbers and I can't find any who get close.

All of which seems to reinforce the idea that it's more important to be willing to titillate than to actually be the best at climbing.