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So I’m not a Tesla or Elon musk fanboy but having owned a hybrid always fancied a go or leasing one. Not now though.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/tesla-asks-suppliers-cash-back-bid-reach-profit
theyre asking suppliers who are amongst all the stories of a poor cash position are already having to trust them to pay their invoices, to refund money for goods already received. Cheeky bstards!!
so how long post collapse until your £80k Tesla bricks itself because it hasn’t received an update for 2 weeks......
Can't they just ask the government to cough up?
Oh sorry they got the climate change deniers in this time.
Actually they’re stuffed trying to negotiate that with new suppliers if the current ones tell them to do a hike. Suspect they’d get offered higher prices and you pay in advance mr musk .....
Actually they’re stuffed trying to negotiate that with new suppliers if the current ones tell them to do a hike.
There will come a point where it depends how much you have invested in the tooling for the bits you are making and what you can re purpose
If you are in and invested your part of the process, there comes a point where you in on the projet
Also
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-subsidies-analysis-idUKKBN12X0K7
LONDON (Reuters) - Compensating carmakers in Britain for any post-Brexit tariffs on exports to Europe could see the government hand the companies more money than they need to pay the salaries of all their British workers, a Reuters analysis of corporate filings shows..
If we are investing in cars do we get a choice what that subsidy pays for? I'd rather not pay for the prolonging of the internal combustion engine.
Throw in Jag and other mainstream manufacturers ev’s Coming soon and it could get interesting for Tesla
I’m not a fan of Musks either, but that “buy back” funding sounds like an “investment” by any other name.
Suggests that the suppliers who do “cash back” to Musk would be “investing” in the Brand and no doubt Musk would support the suppliers who do subscribe to become “favoured” suppliers with enticements of long term contracts for services etc.
However, if the bloke was so “invested” into both product and Brand, he could make a donation of his own $bn’s and save face at the same time, but that’s the obvious option and we all know that investing your own money into your own company doesn’t pay dividends until it returns profit... and that’s the big point here... it’s a loss making organisation with projected ROR way out there in the either, along with its product without investing in the infrastructure.
Best of luck to him, two of my mates have the P(iss)100 thingumybobs and they’re built like 1970’s Allegros on a Friday afternoon. Awful.
Lost money/lost cause IMO
On the basis of Musk alone, I’m out 😄
Can’t they just ask the government to cough up?
The government committed to oil?
Also mr musk may not have real billions of all his money is in Tesla and spaceX stock
Well I’ve negotiated a cash back based on spend with a number of my suppliers. Effectively it’s bulk discount but I have to have spent the money prior to discount being applied.
not a million miles away from this.
I’d drive and EV (i3) and have been in a Tesla (couple of times). So I’m very pro electric.
problem they have in the long run is once the full electric USP goes, because other manufacturers catch and then over take them in terms of technology. They are going to start to struggle. Current crop of cars appear to be Ford standard (nothing wrong with that) quality build for premium prices.
Once you can buy a BMW/ Mercedes etc full electric, with a range of over 300 miles for under £100k, with there dealer network etc etc, you will struggle to get many takers for model S’s. And once Ford etc start doing Focus’s for under £40k, they are in a lot more trouble.
As mentioned above, look at the Jag I-Pace, makes Tesla look expensive and it’s is just a toe in the water for a medium size manufacturer (been in one of those as well, very nice)
i think they are going to have a tough times in the years ahead. Which a shame as they lead the way showing electric cars can works.
Musk has also acted like a bit of dick lately (some may say longer) and has put a lot of people’s back up.
Once you can buy a BMW/ Mercedes etc full electric, with a range of over 300 miles for under £100k, with there dealer network etc etc, you will struggle to get many takers for model S’s. And once Ford etc start doing Focus’s for under £40k, they are in a lot more trouble.
Well I'd say 10 years for that one
And once Ford etc start doing Focus’s for under £40k, they are in a lot more trouble.
By £40k I guess that should read £15k for a basic model because otherwise it is just scan expensive non luxury car. If manufacturers can’t work out how to hit the low price points the only market is rich westerners
If manufacturers can’t work out how to hit the low price points the only market is rich westerners
what your really missing is the car stops being a status symbol or a possession but a commodity that we consume as we need it. Unless you drop crumbs in it.
By £40k I guess that should read £15k for a basic model because otherwise it is just scan expensive non luxury car. If manufacturers can’t work out how to hit the low price points the only market is rich westerners
Under £30k was probably a better guess. EV costs are going to be a lot higher than ICE cars for a long time, but your running costs are then considerably lower, so costs are front loaded. But think of the penguins your saving.
Well I’d say 10 years for that one
i3x (x3 electric) due in 2020 and underpinning exspected to be used for 3 and 5 series. Range estimated to be 250 miles (I get over 120 out my i3). So I’d say real world 300 miles isn’t to far away. Also much faster charge times coming.
New Nissan Leaf is getting around 170 miles real world and a bigger battery is meant to be coming.
Charging infrastructure is improving all the time, but still has a long way to go.
"He claimed “only costs that actually apply to Q3 and beyond will be counted," in Tesla's bid to operate under positive cashflow"
what could possibly go wrong with accounting for supplier rebates:
https://www.economist.com/business/2015/06/18/buying-up-the-shelves
he could make a donation of his own $bn’s and save face at the same time
He doesn't actually have a huge pile of cash, his wealth is a 20% stake in Tesla (which he can't really start to sell even if he wanted to as the share price would plummet) and a valuation of SpaceX (privately held). I'm not saying he struggles to afford groceries but being worth $7b and being able to throw $1b around are two very different things.
I still hope Tesla succeed and carry on growing, can't wait for the Roadster (not that I'd ever be able to afford one). Without Tesla the fully electric market would still just be stuff like Leaf's (and even then probably gen 1 stuff).
Now the big manufacturers are investing seriously in the high end full electric market Tesla is going to struggle unless they sort out production and QC issues. But if they disappear then the pace of development will likely slow down again.
The example of the rebates given by posters above and in that economist article are for deals struck re sales moving forwards though. The tesla one seemed to be a retrospective one for past sales.
I am interested to know how the sw in these cars would react to the company going offline and if it would render your otherwise perfectly good car defunct.
They have a lax attitude to safety as well, so could (potentially) face a massive class action suit from workers and former workers:
I've looked at Tesla as a company aiming for failure for a while now. Their production numbers are woefully low, they have QC issues that refuse to go away, loads of lawsuits against the company for worker's rights and the cars are having to use gimmicks to get themselves noticed. The underlying tech inside them is good but is easily reproduced by the big car manufacturers given a few years though. It's basically been a race between Tesla and the traditional carmakers to see whether Tesla gets their manufacturing act together and starts to turn a profit or if the likes of Ford, VW, Renault and Nissan get hold of decent electric tech to compete and then get decent models to the showrooms. My money has always been on the traditional manufacturers as they had everything bar the battery tech but, as Jaguar are demonstrating with the I-Pace, that gap is no longer there to make Tesla more attractive.
I think they'll be gone in under 5 years when the investors and suppliers pull out.
I follow a chap on YouTube who buys salvage Teslas and attempts to get them working again despite Teslas best efforts to stop him!.
He did a reliability survey as well as the first generation are just coming to the end of their eight year warranty. In year nine you can expect to spend half the value of the car in repairs.
I know it will hurt Elon Musks ego to do so but I wonder if they will pull back from car manufacturing and concentrate instead on supplying batteries and electric tech to the other big manufacturers.
The whole 'car ownership' model is probably a busted flush - why buy an expensive' depreciating asset that spends 80% of its time doing nothing? A shared ownership / hire-by-the-hour scheme makes far more sense in densely-populated urban areas. The current reality is that car companies make most of their money through finance, selling you a PCP with a guaranteed buy-back in an attempt to keep prices high - but there is simply over-capacity, particularly in Europe and the US and once the Chinese gear-up their manufacturing, the likes of Tesla won't survive.
Once all the big boys get there acts together, they'll be on borrowed time manufacturing cars. Supplying the tech to the big boys would be far more prudent, however, will EM be prepared to go that route or continue with vehicles?
The current reality is that car companies make most of their money through finance, selling you a PCP with a guaranteed buy-back in an attempt to keep prices high
This is interesting as I listened to some economists on R4 talking recently who described car finance as the next sub prime mortgage crash. Lots of people over financed in a poorly regulated industry, the risk level is through the roof.
It's a complete non story.
It's normal to ask suppliers for a discount as volumes increase.
He did a reliability survey as well as the first generation are just coming to the end of their eight year warranty. In year nine you can expect to spend half the value of the car in repairs.
But who would seriously be expecting to own a Tesla in year 9. We have the new Nissan Leaf at work, very very good car but I wouldn't buy one. I would happily lease but no way would I buy, the tech is moving so fast the depreciation must be outrageous.
"But who would seriously be expecting to own a Tesla in year 9. We have the new Nissan Leaf at work, very very good car but I wouldn’t buy one. I would happily lease but no way would I buy, the tech is moving so fast the depreciation must be outrageous."
so your suggesting an 8 year life span for a vehicle is ok in your books ? someone somewhere will have it in year 9 other wise the whole green transport aspect is a bust.
Saw loads of them in California. Across the whole state.
We've got an EV Soul. Whilst it's not single car status yet, this is going to happen faster than we all think.
As for Tesla who knows. I think they will get through but clearly not in the present set-up.
Once numbers in the second-hand market of older Leafs etc gets to a certain point some enterprising company will start selling replacement motors, batteries and control systems that can be retrofitted to the older cars. Modern bodies last a good 15 years before they rust out, if not longer, so financing an engine swap instead of a new car should be decent business. There is already a company that electrifies old classics sympathetically so that you can refit the original drivetrain without modifications. There's a few of their conversions on the Fully Charged Youtube channel including a very nice E-Type. It'll be the future equivalent of putting in a modern Honda engine in your old Mini. They'll probably call it E-Rodding!
someone somewhere will have it in year 9 other wise the whole green transport aspect is a bust.
Battery powered cars aren't really green, anyway. They're just moving the pollution to a different location - in this case moving local air pollution in European cities to ground pollution in Chile, and moving one type of environmental catastrophe (climate change) to another (unsustainable mining).
Have a look into lithium mining in Chile and it's consequences to the local populations.
The real answer to transport problems is public transport, but people will have to change their mindset and it will require real investment from governments. Alternatively, this "public transport" could be funded privately and be essentially structure-less, such as driverless or rentable by the hour cars.
It’s a complete non story.
It’s normal to ask suppliers for a discount as volumes increase.
The topic isn’t about discounts, that’s a given on supplier volume requirements and economies of scale.
This is about supplier chain giving money Back to Tesla, hard cash to prop up a top heavy balance sheet with aspirations of seeing its core foundations collapse....
I thought Hydrogen fuels cell car were meant to be the ultimate answer!? They seem to be a forgotten sector though.
This is about supplier chain giving money Back to Tesla, hard cash to prop up a top heavy balance sheet with aspirations of seeing its core foundations collapse….
Money back / discounts - all the same thing at the end of the day, a purchaser trying to maximise their buying power e.g. Tesco do it with their suppliers.
It only gets headline news because it's Tesla and a large number of people are Tesla / EV haters.
Its not unheard of for big chain stores in the UK to demand money from suppliers for the privilege of having their products stocked on their shelves. Similar situation.
BMW did it to suppliers when they took over Rover.
They know Tier 1 suppliers will sell at a low margin/loss to premium brands so that they can boast "we supply BMW/Audi/Merc" when negotiating with lesser marques and try to recover margin on those sales.
After buying Rover, they went through the respective parts lists and went back to suppliers saying you sold this widget to BMW for £1 but the same item to Rover for £2, we think a rebate due. The implied threat of losing future business and the cachet of supplying a premium brand was enough for suppliers to cough up.
They’re just moving the pollution to a different location – in this case moving local air pollution in European cities to ground pollution in Chile, and moving one type of environmental catastrophe (climate change) to another (unsustainable mining).
Sort of muddling things up a bit, from a OPEX/fuel perspective you've reduced oil usage but increased (mainly gas) usage, although WE is rapidly migrating to renewable, so long term the fuel CO2 footprint is shrinking.
The Cobalt etc is a one off cost for the battery (current life predictions for Tesla batteries are 500k miles+ based on usage data). With petrol / diesel you have similar costs in terms of mining oil, so there's no net gain in the one off Capex footprint in the short term.
Some stats on Tesla batteries.. https://evannex.com/blogs/news/how-long-will-my-tesla-battery-last
chevy bolt does 238 miles, costs £23k ($30k) after subsidies, it just isn't available here
https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev-electric-car
but that's really not much additional cost compared to a focus or similar (they generally retail for ~$25k in the states)
I thought Hydrogen fuels cell car were meant to be the ultimate answer!? They seem to be a forgotten sector though
There's a few due out this year/next year - it's the lack of infrastructure that's killing them (as you can't refill at home you need local facilities). A hydrogen-electric hybrid might make some sense as a stop-gap but as it stands now I think my nearest station is 50-60 miles away which is still too far for me.
I thought they stopped selling the Volt? Or was it the Ampera that disappeared?
I thought Elon Musk had previously said that he didn't want to own a car company he wanted to do just enough to get the other manufacturers to take electric vehicles seriously.
I thought Hydrogen fuels cell car were meant to be the ultimate answer!? They seem to be a forgotten sector though.
The Car Tech is cracked, Honda had a production Fuel Cell car 10 years ago.
The problem is hydrogen is inefficient to refine at the moment, but in theory if you could build a refinery powered by renewables we’d be laughing. ‘Normal’ range no massive heavy batteries, quick refuel and its arguably easier to repurpose Petrol stations as Hydrogen stations than it is to build charging stations.
its arguably easier to repurpose Petrol stations as Hydrogen stations than it is to build charging stations.
The problem with hydrogen is that it is incredibly dangerous.
It has a horrible tendency to go bang. Makes petrol look almost inert in comparison.
There is still a long way to go to shift towards mass adoption with issues like moving down to affordable price points for cars, concern over battery life, culture shift away from ownership to subscription model, charging infrastructure (eg no drive houses), renewable energy storage etc.
But there are a hell of a lot of very cleaver engineers working on this stuff with Robert Llewellyns Fully Charged channel providing interesting watching. From that you can start to see a pathway to a solution, even if the final technologies are not fully developed yet:
Subscription models where autonomous vehicles just appear when required (gig economy workforce to clean them inside based on info from sensors) - choosing the right car sub may make choosing a mobile look like childs play;->
EVs using combination of batteries and capacitors (latter for initial acceleration as much better for high discharge and v higher cycle rate which maximises battery range and life)
On street charging from lampposts / wireless charging / in road charging
Ever increasing amounts of renewables as more efficient generating tech gets rolled out
Energy storage systems - why the hell they've cancelled Swansea bay I don't know - gravitricty looks interesting
Still think the reliance on sw and over the air updates for smart cars is a major weak link if companies go bust or an amusing/damaging hack for foreign regimes.
its arguably easier to repurpose Petrol stations as Hydrogen stations than it is to build charging stations.
The problem with hydrogen is that it is incredibly dangerous.
It has a horrible tendency to go bang. Makes petrol look almost inert in comparison.
Agreed, but LPG, Butane and Propane are a bit bangy too and we manage okay. Also unlike LPG and Petrol it's so much lighter than air a leak dissipates really quickly.
why the hell they’ve cancelled Swansea bay I don’t know
The rate they wanted to be paid for the electricity plus the inevitable going over budget and expecting to be bailed out thing that happens in every large scale project of late?