Guardian Reader: ‘Told you so, you dumb clucks’
Mail Reader: ‘We didn’t want that vile creature over here anyway, he’s weird, anyway we make Jaguar’
I’m concerned over various reports of brain-drain and the predicted ongoing decline of British engineering. To me it seems likely that the brand of ‘globalism‘ which English Nationalists most fear and detest will be the one to most enjoy the coming takeover boom which their destabilising decision has (predictably) ushered in. Would like to remain optimistic but I’m feeling a bit ‘factory-farmed lukewarm sausage roll at a boot-sale, with a styrofoam cup of tea in rainy Rhyl’ at the minute. Which aptly describes the highpoint of my summer. Nothing much wrong with that, but when they said the future was going to be so bright we’d have to wear shades I didn’t know that they meant ‘scratched 1970’s £1 market-stall sunglasses made in a sweatshop 5000 miles away ‘bright’.
Give me hope, Obi-Wan. Will bootstraps and onyerbike be sufficient?
Sensible business decision. Most international companies would do this. Why risk putting your european facility in a country that might not be in the EU
They are not the only company to do so.
Predictable loss of large manufacturing type company is utterly predictable. It's easier to work in Europe, so that's where they'll go.
Suicide squad, attack!
In other news.......
Pope wears funny hat.
Bear shit discovered in woods.
As much as I'd have liked a Gigafactory in the UK I'm not convinced it was ever a serious contender, even if Brexit wasn't a thing.
But hey with the rise of an all powerful British empire under the Tories I'm sure Tesla will come crawling back wanting to open a UK specific Gigafactory in the future (sigh)
Europe drives on the right us on the left
Europe is a connected land mass we are an island
Europe is working/regulating collectively we are trying to leave
Why would we even be considered?
Once Putin has taken the USSR back, it will give Tesla a footing in the Russian Empire market. So sensible decision by Tesla.
How viable is Tesla these days?
But hey with the rise of an all powerful British empire under the Tories I’m sure Tesla will come crawling back wanting to open a UK specific Gigafactory in the future (sigh)
We don't want any of that forin muck over here, we'll have our own EVs, it'll be the Body of an Austin Princess draped over a milk float chassis.
Tesla already have a big operation in Belgium. Putting this new facility in Germany makes so much more sense than the UK. And even better they don’t have to deal with Priti Patel.
EU have been late to the game on EVs but have started investing in it
UK car industry helped get this initiative started
Once we had decided to put up regulatory , customs & tarrif barriers between ourselves & the single market
Our being left behind on things like this were inevitable
Why would we even be considered?
Good point. I don’t think we were. Anyway, in other news today ...
‘Minehead man claims feral ferret stole his winning Euromillions lottery ticket
The man (who prefers to remain unnamed) told Ginny Swiggs of the Daily Bleat that he is ‘up at the crack of dawn on my bike shovel in hand and Digging For Victory’
It’s nothing to do with car production in the U.K. it’s because the EU wanting to ban diesels.
Then again...
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/10/aston-martin-targets-wealthy-women-first-suv-dbx
Says it all really.
The UK is a car obsessed country that's about to miss the boat on the next significant change in automotive manufacture and engineering.
Closest the UK has come is giving that Dyson chap some research money so he can piss off to Singapore do a wee bit of R&D here and then declare the whole idea of leccy car non-viable...
Don't worry there's still JLR (owned by TATA this week) which will no doubt eventually end up just sticking EV kit from other companies (such as Tesla) in an overpriced Chassis...
Stupid island about to make trade more difficult or big no barriers Europe.
Speaking at the factory, which is already producing test vehicles, Palmer said Aston Martin was targeting the tens of thousands of multimillionaire women in countries such as the US and China who are able to spend more than £140,000 on a car.
“The DBX is seen as being neither male- nor female-biased – it’s neutral,” he said, referring to the results of testing with wealthy SUV owners.
I like have cake and eat it, with my messages mixed and neutral. It’s about sending a strong signal but in the weakest way possible.
"Forget Brexit, Tesla was never going to build a UK gigafactory"
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-gigafactory-musk-brexit
Musk’s quick take on the Brexit situation ignores a more fundamental reason to avoid investing in the UK: a lack of talent.
The UK’s skills shortage has cost businesses £6.3 billion in the last year alone as they struggled to hire the right people, according to research from the Open University. Three in five hiring managers have admitted that the skills shortage has worsened over the last year.
This severe recruitment crisis meant that 69,000 to 186,000 engineering workers left the UK each year since 2016 to be replaced with only 46,000 engineering students and apprenticeships.
It short, it would have been almost impossible for Tesla to find the 30,000 workers that are rumoured to be the target number for the new factory by the target deadline of 2021. And as Musk hinted in his comments, Germany’s engineering talent was part of the attraction.
cougar:
It’s nothing to do with car production in the U.K. it’s because the EU wanting to ban diesels.
Germany wants to be able to ban diesels, and has made their own laws to allow it.
Germany could also become Tesla’s biggest consumer base in Europe. This is partly because the country’s federal court permits individual cities to ban diesel vehicles altogether, and several cities — including Frankfurt, Munich, and Berlin — have already banned older diesel models that burn fuel less efficiently.
It's almost like Germany is a sovereign nation with control over its laws?
This severe recruitment crisis meant that 69,000 to 186,000 engineering workers left the UK each year since 2016 to be replaced with only 46,000 engineering students and apprenticeships.
This also.
Getting quality staff is a nightmare.
My take? Musk is getting more sleep and is making good choices again after a year off the rails.
Germany wants to be able to ban diesels, and has made their own laws to allow it.
🤦🏻♂️
This decision, like most decisions like this, are down to the incentives offered by the government of the country. There would have been a bidding war between nations and Germany won and it suited Tesla to stoke the fire of the competition with the odd snipped into the media as and when it suited them.
Access to the European market is not an issue. My wife recently bought a BMW X3....that was made in the US as all X3's are made outside of the EU. International trade arrangements are not really an issue or major consideration.
We can only speculate on the real reason why they located it there...we don't know. But Germany does have a very good electric vehicle sector, so on technical merits alone it would have probably been the best bet. If it was due to Brexit then why has France been overlooked? they have a motor industry every bit as big and good as the German one....Why not Spain or Portugal who have big production plants too? To say it is all down to one single factor, i.e. Brexit, is just a gross over-simplification of a very complex decision.
was made in the US as all X3’s are made outside of the EU. International trade arrangements are not really an issue or major consideration.
Hello caller! You can buy a car made anywhere, that doesn’t change the fact that making key components (engine/battery etc) either inside the same trading block, on in a country with a trade arrangements that facilitate the movements of parts as much as possible, isn’t advantageous to the manufacturer and customer. Car manufacturers already here have made it clear how much it will cost them in money, time and hassle if/when we leave the single market, why would any manufacturer walk into that situation when planning a big new investment?
Sorry Drac! Wrong mod, erk!
Europe drives on the right us on the left
Europe is a connected land mass we are an island
Europe is working/regulating collectively we are trying to leaveWhy would we even be considered?
Agreed. Also, why would a business person want to be involved with a bunch of lying retarded view politicians? Politicians that want to limit and restrict business, over complicate trade laws and transactional nightmares.
Brexit, pure and simple.
The brain drains been going on since June2016, a mass IT talent pool soon started to move to other countries when this Tory bunch of retards pushed for leaving the EU. Now the only way anyone will ever invest in an island full of people who constantly looks backwards is if BL started building the Allegro all over again... because some stupid people think the UK was better back then.
Bunch of idiots.
C’mon LyingBloHard, admit your failings and your parties retarded viewpoint before the 3 election..
Don’t worry there’s still JLR (owned by TATA this week) which will no doubt eventually end up just sticking EV kit from other companies (such as Tesla) in an overpriced Chassis…
JLR joint venture with BMW on EV powertrains
Watch this space for the JLR BEV's coming to a dealership near you...
How can you blame the Tories?
It’s not as if the majority population of Britain is asleep at the wheel, or non-engaged/uneducated/‘stupid’ people? Surely we know what's going on here? The electorate are not all knuckle-dragging, tabloid-gobbling EDL types sucking up to Boris and Nigel because they’re scared of The Bearded Ghost of Lenin and them book-learnin’ folk?
Brain-drain is real. The point is what to do?
I do wonder how much more it's going to take, just how bad it has to get before the brexit deniers admit they might have got it wrong?
Musk: We're going to mainland Europe because of the uncertainty surrounding brexit.
Leavers: See, this is why we need to get brexit done, to get rid of the uncertainty!
Like, people aren't investing in Britain because of a fear that we might be *ed afterwards, so the conclusion is to actually get on with being *ed then at least we'll know exactly how ****ed we are. I can't even.
Even on this very thread we've got apologists going "well, it's probably not just brexit..." Which may be true, but if it's a factor then we should be taking that seriously rather than hand-waving it, should we not?
Answer me this: Since the referendum, how many companies have flocked to the UK because of the wonderful new opportunities and exciting trade world deals brexit is going to provide?
How can you blame the Tories?
How can you not?
Brexit means brexit.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
They need us more than we need them.
Easiest deal in history.
Get brexit done.
Take back control.
Need I go on?
Need I go on?
Well there was this guy and his bus not sure what happened to him after it was proved a lie.
This isn't just today's problem, it's been well-known for the last 10 years plus. A lot is simply demographics as about 50% of the UK's engineering / technical workforce is 55+ and is going to retire in the next decade. There's a structural deficit of about 50,000 a year and foreign investors aren't going to come to the UK to build a high-tech production facility as we wind-up the drawbridge to foreign workers.
Besides, in our post-Brexit utopia with 100% employment, all school-leavers will be gainfully employed digging potatoes and turnips, picking fruit and veg or wiping the arses of self-entitled, post-war geriatrics
The UK’s skills shortage has cost businesses £6.3 billion in the last year alone as they struggled to hire the right people, according to research from the Open University. Three in five hiring managers have admitted that the skills shortage has worsened over the last year.
I'm not sure how I feel about that though.
The company I work for has just finished a massive recruitment drive (it's very cyclical, 3 years ago they made me redundant along with about half the workforce). As part of this they recruited heavily from abroad, allegedly as there were no suitable candidates in the UK. Which I can see being true for a few more senior positions (e.g. experience working on a specific type of oil/gas/chemical plant that maybe isn't in the UK, e.g. Fracking). But when it comes to the mid-career "bums on seats" type engineers, I can't help but feel that they're just trying to increase the supply and suppress wages because yes, engineers are expensive (or well paid, depending whether your an engineer or not)! As there are certainly a good number of out of work engineers.
Is the Berlin announcement intended to deflect from something?
The R&D centre is the real loss here. We are leaders in automotive engineering (maybe not manufacture), and Tesla are at the cutting edge of this. I think they will ultimately become a technology suppier rather than a car supplier, so it would have been a good start to lead the development of the technology.
But. Brexit.
has to get before the brexit deniers admit they might have got it wrong?
Have you never read the Mail/Express/Youtube comments/spoken to any friends who hold those views?
If we leave (or don’t leave) with:
1. No deal
2.‘Bad’ deal
3.‘Good’ deal
If we
1. Thrive
2. Fall
3. Renege and ask for help
Then whatever, it’s all (and always will be) ‘the EU’s fault’ (and all of the foreigner-loving leftists and those job-stealing, benefit-claiming, economy-wrecking foreigners)
The whole mindset is predicated on blaming ‘the Other’ and never objectively examining the facts. Being wrong is not an option. It just isn’t.
"Which country gives the best deal" is not (well, should not be) an argument in Europe, as State Aid controls subsidy to 20% (JLR's 125mil from Hungary raised eyebrows, but has since been declared legit). The content of the 20% is often the differentiating factor - types of finance, timing of support to help business plans, de-risking activity etc.
I'm an engineer and fully support other engineers (and doctors, financiers and other professionals) getting out of the UK for a while. If you have the skills there are endless opportunities elsewhere, in far nicer places to live.
In the mean time, leave the Brexit loons to earn a crust from selling freedom fish to India.
Don’t worry there’s still JLR (owned by TATA this week) which will no doubt eventually end up just sticking EV kit from other companies (such as Tesla) in an overpriced Chassis…
https://www.jaguarlandrovercareers.com/content/Ireland/?locale=en_GB
i wouldn't guarantee JLR are going to be around for the longterm.
But when it comes to the mid-career “bums on seats” type engineers,
Or your skill set is no longer relevant, the only constant is change and if you don't adapt you are no longer employable.
I know of an accountant who refused to use a PC and stuck to paper, he was made redundant. I know a few software coders who were good, but there skills are too niche these days?
So yes there is an element of cost, but there is also an element of refusing to move with the times. Now should employers invest in training for their staff to keep them upto date.....
Despite the other disadvantages to multinationals setting up in the UK ( as detailed above) there were also advantages. Unfettered access into the EU without paying EU level wages and taxes and without having to deal with EU level worker protections. These made sense for companies to invest in the UK. But once you lose the access to the EU then obviously the balance tips.
Even on this very thread we’ve got apologists going “well, it’s probably not just brexit…” Which may be true, but if it’s a factor then we should be taking that seriously rather than hand-waving it, should we not?
I'm not an apologist at all. We've got various systemic problems in the UK which may have been more important, less important than brexit in this going to Germany. Probably doesn't matter which is more important, as each may have been enough on their own.
We're not in a position to thrive on the world stage outside the EU, we need all the help we can get. Brexit will not help our systemic problems, it will make them worse, and add a whole load of others. And there aren't anywhere near enough upsides to offset them
I laid off 354 IT Project Team contractors the day after the Brexit vote. Of that lot, a lot went to Europe and a load went to Asia. I've heard of many more contractors being given the boot because of lack of investment by companies due to Brexit, yes I'm in the FS Industry and it's been decimated by the uncertainty and the Torys stupidity and retarded views. They're just bucking the trend of cohesive-working together for a common good and pursuing a closed shop of poorly paid UK employees on the basis of selling cheap labour off to those that want to exploit the vast UK skills base. No-one will invest here anymore, it's all going into Europe & Asia, I've shifted 5 teams work offshore where the skills and labour are both available and keen, so thats about 700 jobs in 18mths..
But thats fine innit, because those nasty Bankers earning all that money and driving around in Ferrari's...
Erm, nope. These are folks doing routine transformation and event management, y'know just like some of you lot on here.
I'm glad that Musk has decided a decent solid trading country with ability for expansion and inclusive working with skilled keen workforce is available to him. I'm personally not a huge fan of his, but he's sure made the right decision in this instance..
And meanwhile the UK will be run down to the knuckle and you'll all sit back and blame someone else for your own misery.
Pathetic.
Our IT company moved all non uk language support to the EU (remaining country) and development work investment, the rest of the English speaking support is transferring to India.
We were the EU Headquarters - it will be a small satellite sales office in the near future.
Additionally when the wrexit result came in we could no longer recruit language speakers as all the applicants dried up, something we had been reliably doing for 15 years.
So basically its over and we are looking for a much smaller office instead of the more than one office we occupied (mothballed now)
Philips, Siemens, GE all have substantial electrical and thermal expertise in Germany. It's also easier to hire European talent in Germany as wages are substantially higher than in the UK.
This severe recruitment crisis meant that 69,000 to 186,000 engineering workers left the UK each year since 2016 to be replaced with only 46,000 engineering students and apprenticeships.
Surely the large numbers leaving created the recruitment crisis, not the other way round? If they left, why did they leave? If there was a shortage of them, they should have been in high demand and therefore In a strong position to bargain for higher wages and perks? Or is it a case of UK employers not being willing to fork out for talent?
Choice between a country that has pursued deliberate policies of wage control and export driven economy, or a place whose economic plan since the 80s was to invite lots of very rich people to park their money here. Hmmmmm. Tough one.
If you can’t get key staff, then you move operations to where you can, moving lots more jobs in the process.
This is what people don’t get, if you keep key people out (or just make it an absolutely ballache to get them in) it doesn’t just mean that job is lost, it makes this the wrong country to operate in, and so why site here and employ anything beyond the minimum for this newly cut off territory? When the state controls migration with a heavy hand, it stifles industry and costs jobs.
**** business!
As some would say.
I know of an accountant who refused to use a PC and stuck to paper, he was made redundant.
Yeah, I've known a few of those Intentional Luddites over the years. Eg, one woman working in Finance, wanting help with Excel, commenting "I don't know anything about this computer shit."
1) Thanks for dismissing my entire career as "shit."
2) You're in Accounts, this is Excel, it is literally your job to know this "shit." I use Excel like twice a year, if I can work out how to do what you're wanting to do by looking at the menus for the options you need, why can't you? It's like a carpenter complaining that they don't understand how hammers work FFS.
We’ve got various systemic problems in the UK which may have been more important, less important than brexit in this going to Germany.
I don't disagree, and apologies if I misunderstood before, it was the apparent glossing-over of the fact that brexit might have anything to do with it at all that I was complaining about.
If there was a shortage of them, they should have been in high demand and therefore In a strong position to bargain for higher wages and perks? Or is it a case of UK employers not being willing to fork out for talent?
The exchange rate collapse hasn't helped. 3-4 years ago, my salary was almost the the equivalent of a German Engineers salary with the £/euro exchange rate at 1.4+. Now, with the exchange rate at 1.15, I've effectively taken a 20+% salary reduction. In addition, their wages have increased at a rate of 4-5%, the UK wage hasn't. This meant that a lot of UK talent has moved France and Germany. The former has better condition, the latter better wages. in both cases they're better than the UK. It's a similar story for the US.
In addition, many established employers have pay scale bounds which they're not allowed to cross, this means that say a systems engineer in the UK will enter a payscale that has bounds of £35-50k. In Germany, those bounds might be 65-95Keuro for the same job in the same company...where would you chose to work?
This obviously means that UK labour is cheap to the continent, but it doesn't encourage highly skilled people to come and work here for less money.
It’s like a carpenter complaining that they don’t understand how hammers work FFS.
Carpenters rarely use hammers these days, you Luddite!
It’s not just Berlin, I know top talent (brain the size of a planet people) who’ve gone to Amsterdam… all sorts of brain powered industries are making that their favoured site for the eggheads. Better quality of life, better pay now the £ has dropped, etc. Oh, and being born outside the UK… they went where they are acknowledged as helping rather being blamed by those running the country.
where would you chose to work?
That was kind of my point. It wasn't a recruitment crisis that caused the shortage, it was the shortage that caused the recruitment crisis. And the shortage was caused by....employers who had policies held over from the feudal serf days, not one that acknowledged the reality of competing for talent.
Although VMware doesn't pay excessively well, and no one gets more than minimum holiday allowance, no matter how senior you are when you join and they don't have a lot of problems.
A German view on electric cars
^that’s a great video thanks for sharing.
Go Norway.
There are already plenty of German made electric only cars on the roads around here. If they are behind Norway, what are we?!?
factory-farmed lukewarm sausage roll at a boot-sale, with a styrofoam cup of tea in rainy Rhyl’ at the minute
In the field opposite Sainsbury’s and Pizza Hut?
Don’t care that Tesla has went to Germany. Didn’t even know they were building a European factory.