[Closed] Term Time Holidays - The Arguments Can Continue.

Still the wrong word.

So the high prices of non Term time sold at a loss balance the low prices ans empty planes of term time how?

Not sure quite what you meant to type there. But no, I would no be investing in the tourism industry - it's not a big money earner.

In essence....put simply.... the sticker price on a low season holiday is not what it's costing the operator. They are making a loss on it. But they have fixed costs for the aircraft and the hotel irrespective of if they sell the place so they make less loss if you are on the holiday than if you are not. Once you are on the holiday they can further reduce their losses with what you spend whilst out there. Yes, they are making a profit on the high season prices but armed with the knowledge that the low season price is not a true reflection of the cost of the holiday to the operator the price don't seem quite so extortionate. Shoulder period prices are probably more indicative of the genuine cost of the holiday. But holiday companies are not public services - you would not expect a bike shop to sell you a bike at cost would you?

Better?

[quote=geoffj ]And of course, all kids learn at the same pace in the same class

An issue which would be helped immensely by having varying numbers of kids in school for 1/4 of the year.

[quote=geoffj ]It may be dross and 'blue sky' (whatever that means) in your opinion, but it is an alternative.

With such a line of thought you can comfort yourself knowing that you're far from alone amongst the electorate.

> Restrictions not banned.
Thank you

Restricted, and therefore fitting your definition of people who should reconsider their career choices because they [i]"can't take time off when they need to fit in with school hols"[/i]. No?

Mmmm 4 pages in and nobody has mentioned that this would be less of a problem if teachers took fewer holidays. Teachers should get similar amount of holidays to other professions - say 8 weeks including public holidays.

That'll make reversing the teacher shortages easy!!

An issue which would be helped immensely by having varying numbers of kids in school for 1/4 of the year.

No one said it would help - it might not be worse than the current position though.

With such a line of thought you can comfort yourself knowing that you're far from alone amongst the electorate.

That's good to know.

That'll make reversing the teacher shortages easy!!

Teachers are only in it for the holidays 😯

I'm joking - teachers should be paid significantly more, have better support and have more autonomy to do their job as they see fit - they just shouldn't get more holidays than me 😉

It's not been mentioned yet but the dad in the case actually has three children. Two were on half term at the time the holiday was taken, the one that had unauthorised absence goes to a different school and had a half term week that did not coincide with the other two children.

How does he manage that?

His point is that the school rule was over 90% attendance was acceptable and even with the week off his child still was over that so it should be acceptable

Its been a long day, either im missing something or i womt be investimg im Footlaps Corp.

For my own interests I had a quick look at TUI's figures over the last few years - in a former life I worked for a firm that was bought up by TUI. In the last 10 years they don't seem to have posted figures with a profit margin ratio of greater than 6% and that was a standout year from one of the most successful firms in the sector. That's dire - healthy in most industries would be around 30%. Whilst it might seem like you are being 'ripped off' by greedy companies in high season that's a very sucky return. Definitely not to be invested in!

My kids have have been collectively in School for coming up for 10 years and they've missed 3 days between them. That's about a 99.7% attendance does that mean we've booked up enough brownie points for a massive cheapo holiday. No it doesn't!

Your kids and other people kids education is a privilege that for one a lot of people in the world would die for and I pay a fortune in tax to fund.

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it whether that's a week in Magaluf or a week in Val d'isere. I can't get over this sense of entitlement that people have that they right to the holiday they want or their kids deserve a holiday after studying for Stats. We were so poor when i was a kid didn't have a single holiday full stop (not in the UK or abroad) by the sounds of it some of you would call the NSPCC as it's child abuse not to give your children a holiday abroad or a trip to Disneyland. Two of the thing I hate in modern society, wanting everything now snd mollycoddling kids.

I'm taking my kids to a big wood north of Birmingham for the Easter Holidays as that's all I can afford at the moment. I'm sure they'll have a great time on their bikes, playing in the woods and avoiding the doggers.

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it

What if you can afford it but just don't particularly like getting utterly shafted for a holiday that was literally a third of the price the previous week?

We were so poor when i was a kid didn't have a single holiday full stop

Ah once again the "I had a miserable life so you should too" argument. 🙄

If you can't afford your holiday in the school holidays then you can't afford it whether that's a week in Magaluf or a week in Val d'isere.

For me it's not about the cost.

[quote=geoffj ]it might not be worse than the current position though.

I'm enjoying your logic here

That's good to know.

You appear to have misunderstood me.

It was a third the price because there was no demand because kids were in school it's the market price and your not getting shafted if you don't go, no one is holding a gun against your head to go on a foriegn holiday. It's no different to getting the train to London at 7am £250 or 10am £37.

aracer - Member
geoffj » it might not be worse than the current position though.
[i]I'm enjoying your logic here[/i]

Good - try not to conflate too many issues and you might just follow the thread 😉

You appear to have misunderstood me.

Not sure if this has been covered but teachers pay more for their holidays too. Are they allowed to take 2 weeks off mid term time to make the most of cheap deals?

Couple of days wouldn't make much difference to the kids education anyway...

For my own interests I had a quick look at TUI's figures over the last few years - in a former life I worked for a firm that was bought up by TUI. In the last 10 years they don't seem to have posted figures with a profit margin ratio of greater than 6% and that was a standout year from one of the most successful firms in the sector.

You can argue that the peak travellers are subsidising the off-peak or you can argue the off-peak pay just enough to allow the peak to happen. Either way there's no point complaining - that's the way the numbers work.

It's not all about cost though, my brother and his wife works in what left of the British holiday trade, they don't earn much and don't take the kids abroad but if he didn't take them out of school they couldn't go on holiday as a family from Easter holidays to Autumn half term inclusive. Leaving somewhere in the uk in the winter as the only choice. Our parents were in the trade to and again we would have never have been
This is the reality for many working in the British holiday trade.
I see that it's not good to have students being able to go for a weeks holiday here that there during term time just so the parents can afford to take the to Disney Land but it's not the only reason.

Not sure if this has been covered but teachers pay more for their holidays too. Are they allowed to take 2 weeks off mid term time to make the most of cheap deals?

True but they get more paid holiday than most and they save on childcare that they don't need during school holidays. Others must pay for childcare because they get less holiday than their kids or can't take it during holiday time.

Would those advocating taking their kids out of school in term time be ok if I ignored a few rules and regulations that I don't agree with? I think that the 70mph speed limit on the motorway is silly and a bit restrictive so I'll just crack on as I please if that's ok with you all?

Of course, the truth of the matter is that as ever a minority of entitled idiots have necessitated a hard rule where discretion would be a better tool. There are plenty of occasions where absence from school for a day or two would do little harm to anyone but as some grown ups can't be trusted to act like adults and see the bigger picture rules have to be imposed on all.

the matter is that as ever a minority of entitled idiots have necessitated a hard rule where discretion would be a better tool.

It's not been mentioned yet but the dad in the case actually has three children. Two were on half term at the time the holiday was taken, the one that had unauthorised absence goes to a different school and had a half term week that did not coincide with the other two children.

How does he manage that?

Maybe go on hols at a different time? It's not hard to figure out.

Spot on, so much red tape and stupid rules are there because a few take the piss which then negatively impacts the minority or those really in need

No one [b]needs[/b] a holiday.

I think that the 70mph speed limit on the motorway is silly and a bit restrictive so I'll just crack on as I please if that's ok with you all?

Not really a great analogy, since taking my kids out of school doesn't tend to endanger anyone's life, but okay...

So if you faced a £60 fine for speeding on the motorway but [i]not[/i] speeding would result in you paying £3000 extra for exactly the same journey then what would you do?

And on top of that, what if your work circumstances meant that driving at a normal speed was impossible anyway?

So if you faced a £60 fine for speeding on the motorway but not speeding would result in you paying £3000 extra for exactly the same journey then what would you do?

Poor analogy - you don't have to go on holiday so you can choose not to pay the £3000 extra.

What if you can afford it but just don't particularly like getting utterly shafted for a holiday that was literally a third of the price the previous week?

Suck it up buttercup. You chose to have the kids, deal with the consequences of your choices.

convert - Member
Its been a long day, either im missing something or i womt be investimg im Footlaps Corp.
For my own interests I had a quick look at TUI's figures over the last few years - in a former life I worked for a firm that was bought up by TUI. In the last 10 years they don't seem to have posted figures with a profit margin ratio of greater than 6% and that was a standout year from one of the most successful firms in the sector. That's dire - healthy in most industries would be around 30%. Whilst it might seem like you are being 'ripped off' by greedy companies in high season that's a very sucky return. Definitely not to be invested in!

You do know its 2017 right? For any company in most sectors to be posting double digit growth would be a good if not exceptional year. To suggest thast 6% growth is "dire" and 30% acceptable is frankly quite bonkers, especially when you consider the threat on airline & european business from multiple directions such as terrorism and the weaker £1.

Your earlier post was clearer to you and footflaps acknowledging my first which remains correct; The higher prices and volumes of non term holiday makers supplement the lower prices empty planes/hotels of term time, thats obvious and undisputed. For footflaps to suggest plane seats are rationed is - at least without evidence - ludicrous - as mentioned in the last three summer holidasy period theres not been an obvious empty seat to span that I've been on.

Vis a Vis, yesterday I re-created our August holiday that we originally booked in February. Its 25% more expensive and about 50% more expensive than if we flew out next week. So I could get on the same plane, go to the same hotel and have the same experience with the exception of a slighly cooler climate and pay 50% less. Just to apply that to the current argument roughly speaking that equates to £1800, yet I'd have to pay £60 to take jnr out of school with permission.

So I'd save £1740. Not really to be sniffed at is it? The moral fact then becomes is that £1740 worth Jnr missing school for 7 school days? My choice is to accept that, or go on a £1740 cheaper holiday in August and allow jnr to remain in school.

newrobdob - Member
Poor analogy - you don't have to go on holiday so you can choose not to pay the £3000 extra.

reluctantlondoner - Member
Suck it up buttercup. You chose to have the kids, deal with the consequences of your choices.

Or... I can choose not to "suck it up", take my kids out of school, go on holiday, and not pay £3000 extra for it. 😀

I'm a bit confused by what the argument is now, the parents taking their kids out of school to go on a cheaper holiday are saving what? Hundreds, potentially thousands of pounds and are complaining about a £60 fine? Is it the money that annoys them? Or is the principle? (was tempted to do a cr*p pun then, but thought better of it!). A couple on here seem to have no problem with being able to afford it after all.

If the latter then surely they can appreciate that the rules are there not to target them, but to control the "lowest common denominator" and make life easier for those who are in what is already a pretty unenviable trade? Do I just have more empathy for the teachers? Or too little empathy for the value of cheap holidays for my kids?

Or... I can choose not to "suck it up", take my kids out of school, go on holiday, and not pay £3000 extra for it.

Please do us all a favour and announce to the forum exactly when you do this so that we can all make sure to be somewhere very different.

Peyote: my argument is basically

A) the fines only punish people who would save less than £60 on their holiday

B) there are pretty clear reasons why people take kids out: some people can't get time off during the school holidays and some people don't want to get shafted by 300% price increases. You won't stop people taking kids out unless these are addressed somehow.

some people don't want to get shafted by 300% price increases.

Wrong, they just want to make sure they get bragging rights over the Joneses about the fancy holiday they went in, just the same as buying their new Audi helped in the driveway wars.

Screw the kids education, they just want to show off.

Please do us all a favour and announce to the forum exactly when you do this so that we can all make sure to be somewhere very different.

Well presumably you'll all be stuck at work with you kids in school. 😉

But for the record, this year I took my kids out for four days before the Feb half term so we could go skiing in the 3 Valleys.
The kids are 3 & 6, I had the school's permission, and I don't think it massively hurt their degree prospects.
They spent a week in the mountains being active, trying new foods and learning some French. We caught up what little missed schoolwork there was during half term.

No regrets.

It's not as if this is a new thing, holidays have always been more expensive around kids holidays. Kids holidays are going to be more anyway as they are based around public holidays and the best weather.

If you can save £3k by going in term time then you must be going on some seriously fancy holidays - no sympathy from me -sorry!

Bragging rights? 😆
My "new Audi" is a ten year old second hand Ford Focus. My mountain bike is a steel hardtail from 2003.

We don't go on "fancy holidays" to brag about it. We go because we enjoy them. Most of our holidays involve camping in the UK.

Screw the kids education, they just want to show off.

Or they want some time with the family as one week away has no effect on their education.

Or they want some time with the family

Which can easily be done in the school holidays for minimal cost.

What none of you will admit is that you could have a perfectly good cheap family holiday in your kids holiday periods - but not to the fancy places you feel you [i]have[/i] to go to to keep up with the Joneses.

there are pretty clear reasons why people take kids out: [b]some people can't get time off during the school holidays[/b] and some people don't want to get shafted by 300% price increases.

And this is where I have some sympathy. There is a system in place that allows headteachers some discretion. Is it being used amicably and fairly however? Is the stage of schooling the child is in and the time in the academic year being taken into account? A parent that simply can't take away with their child in the holiday period (and maybe has a letter from their employer backing this up) should be treated differently to a parent wanting to save a few quid or more accurately get a more salubrious holiday than they could otherwise afford. Provided that it's not 4 times a year and they are doing their best to mitigate the issue and their child is not in dire straights academically or the time of year is not catastrophic for their child's educational welfare.

This is where I have to declare my hand - in my role in an independent school I get requests all the time for students to have time off. It is my role to be the arbiter, although I have one person more senior than me to back up my judgement. Some are pretty clear cut easy to grant situations. Other parents quite frankly need saving from themselves, or rather their kids need saving from their parents' whims. The school takes a tough line and will not sanction time away that is not considered reasonable- we don't get strong armed by fee paying parents. Parents who remove their kids anyway in this situation anyway find themselves in a meeting with the managing head with a pretty clear message that their child's place in the school is at risk unless they abide by what they signed up for. To be honest that has more bite than a £60 fine will ever have but with are in the enviable situation to be able to act like that although it rarely happens. Mostly it's about educating the parents about being a responsible parent. I am talking about 6th form here mind - the stakes for missing vital weeks of school for a skiing holiday are pretty high.

Which can easily be done in the school holidays for minimal cost.

Not if you're not off during the holidays.

What none of you will admit is that you could have a perfectly good cheap family holiday in your kids holiday periods - but not to the fancy places you feel you have to go to to keep up with the Joneses.

It's not about that in my case.

And this is where I have some sympathy. There is a system in place that allows headteachers some discretion. Is it being used amicably and fairly however? Is the stage of schooling the child is in and the time in the academic year being taken into account? A parent that simply can't take away with their child in the holiday period (and maybe has a letter from their employer backing this up) should be treated differently to a parent wanting to save a few quid or more accurately get a salubrious holiday than they could otherwise afford. Provided that it's not 4 times a year and they are doing their best to mitigate the issue and their child is not is dire straights academically or the time of year is not catastrophic for their child's educational welfare.

Precisely.

Are you saying you can never get any time off at all during your kids holidays? Not buying that.

If you can save £3k by going in term time then you must be going on some seriously fancy holidays

You think? Here is an example I posted last time this came up. This isn't cherry-picked, this is a "fancy holiday" we went on, a week skiing in France:

[img] [/img]

That price is per-person. There were five of us. How much did going in term time save?

Thanks Graham

A) the fines only punish people who would save less than £60 on their holiday

So "increase the fines to make them work" I suppose would be the response to that

B) there are pretty clear reasons why people take kids out: some people can't get time off during the school holidays

Surely these people have made a choice to take that job/career path and should accept the consequences of their choices though? Expecting others to work around this seems a bit... ...selfish (for want of a better non inflammatory word)

and some people don't want to get shafted by 300% price increases.

Again, isn't this something that people should take into account when choosing where/when to go on holiday though? Or even when they factor in having/accepting responsibility for having kids, same as the additional food, clothes, utilities that having to support 1+ additional lives requires.

Are you saying you can never get any time off at all during your kids holidays? Not buying that

I'm not a teacher, neither is my wife. Getting a week off together is rare and usually outside the school holidays. Not sure why you think I'd be lying.

Surely these people have made a choice to take that job/career path and should accept the consequences of their choices though? Expecting others to work around this seems a bit... ...selfish (for want of a better non inflammatory word)

Yeah **** 'em.

Yeah **** 'em.

Who? The education professionals or the parents who want the holidays?