[Closed] Technology and Old People

it'd have never occurred to me that a PC of that vintage might be in any way unusual to them. And yet, "Windows 95? Like, 1995? That's before I was born!"

At the last parent's evening her teacher commented that my then five-year-old daughter was the only one who knew how to use a mouse - the others were all prodding at the screen.

I also vividly remember watching her as a baby when she found a glossy magazine and tried to do pinch-zoom and swipe gestures to look through the photos.

Their concept of "a computer" is already very different from ours.

Floppy disk might not be recognised in any flavour

Cars have been around for over two hundred years and have barely evolved in that time

yep mines full of technology but still not people friendly

and Bill Gates is 60

or maybe that is bettered by the one that folded a 5.25 floppy in half to put it inside a 3.5" drive?

Once spoke to a guy who'd bought 72-pin SIMMs when his machine took 30-pin SIMMs. "I've put them in but they don't work" he explained. Wait, what? The 72-pin modules are physically bigger, how have you managed to install them?

Turned out, he'd taken each one in turn and lopped an inch off the end with a hacksaw.

If we're sharing "tech support hell" stories rather than just age-related differences, I've got a million of them. Perhaps there's another thread in that.

Some of the most engaged of customers at user testing sessions are retired folk: they have all the time, and explore all the options. Seem more conscientious than younger folk, too.

Also, half the design team is itself pushing 50, so …

ah... the "Hey, look! Someone's 3D printed the Save Icon"

That's telling in itself; I'd bet that there's a lot of people who will know it as the save icon [i]without any idea why it looks like it does.[/i]

Struck me as equally strange my kids going 'choo choo' when being trains.

And what do these mysterious white bananas have to do with answering a call?

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My Grandad (aged 92) is a bit of a mix.

He got a iPad and started using the internet at 91, FaceTime's us, uploads pics, bought a wifi printer and prints them out for us when we visit. Amazing!

But then he said he was printing off his old emails and putting them in folders (actual physical folders) organised by date/sender so he could find them again.

At the other end of the scale, the teenage kids my girlfriend teaches use social media all the time, but don't know how to send an e-mail.

My mum has started using emojis in her texts. She's still not grasped that you don't need to type the word out as well. Funny 🙂

Lol.. those kids watching that 90s instructional video.. Their reaction to the shit video is funniest. What they don't realise is that was a really popular way of disseminating information in those days, we had to watch loads of that kind of shit. Their immunity is so low you can watch their skin crawl with embarrassment 🙂

Much more than technology has advanced over the years.

It's easy to take stuff for granted. My mum found it hard work navigating around on her digital TV. She had never used a keyboard to move something around on a screen before, so the concept of moving the cursor around to select things using the remote was hard to explain.

Mr. Floppy Bender, above, was a PhD student. History, iirc.
I don't think it's just "technology and old people", but "technology and non-technical people", or even "topic of choice and people that have no interest in that topic of choice".
It's certainly not a function of cleverness or intelligence.

I still remember the first time my Mum used Skype. She was very please with herself getting it to work initiating the call and chatted for ages. We said goodbye and watched as she squinted at the screen and muttered and tutted for about 10 minutes trying to switch it off. Was comedy gold till one of the kids let slip.

I have not yet got my Atari ST out of the loft to show the kids. I have a feeling they'll love the games.. Buggy Boy will be a hit.

My Mum has told herself that she can't use a smartphone or a tablet. It's a bit frustrating because she uses more complicated stuff at work all the time without a second thought.

Cars have been around for over two hundred years and have barely evolved in that time

You can't honestly believe that? Just think of the improvements in safety, suspension, gearboxes, efficiency, power etc. Here are the basic specs from a Ford Model T from ~100 years ago; engine produced 20 hp giving a top speed of 40–45 mph and 16-25 mpg.

My mum found it hard work navigating around on her digital TV.

That's not tech per se simply what you are used to. I can't navigate easily on games consoles or Mac's as I rarely use them, but it wouldn't take me long to sort it if I had too.

But then he said he was printing off his old emails and putting them in folders (actual physical folders) organised by date/sender so he could find them again.

I have to archive (another word for lose never to see again) my email so often that I wonder if this is a better idea 😕

I bought an IPAD.

I only wanted to check emails and weather while I was on holiday, so if I could load Firefox I'd have all my favourites. It came with a case because I perceived it was built to be light and slim, not robust.

I opened the box, thought it probably needed charging. The power lead was too short to reach a wall socket behind me. I got upset by this, had to use the wander lead I have for power tools. I looked for a manual in the box. There wasn't one. There wasn't even a [i]get you started[/i] booklet. How does one use a new piece of kit without a manual? There was a dinky little card, printed in a tiny font in grey ink. No use to my tired old eyes.

I taught it my thumbprint, then it nagged about a password. I was not a happy bunny by this point. It wouldn't accept something easy as a temporary measure, until I'd gone on my hols and had time to persevere. I put in something contorted, like it wanted. It seemed relevant at the time.

I got so annoyed that I thought I'd leave it until I came back. And then I'd forgotten the stupid password.

So I've put it all in the **** it bucket.

A 500 quid lesson on being too old, or is it technology not suited to older people? I've read plenty of manuals. One can stick post-it notes, use highlighters, mark pages, scribble in margins, flick backwards and forwards, read and re-read.

I would expect they stopped printing them because no-one was reading them. I don't read them - most stuff doesn't need it any more.

or is it technology not suited to older people?

A lot of technology is not suited to people who grumble about creating passwords, I'll grant you that. As for manuals, the whole beauty of so much modern technology is how - and there will always be exceptions - it is usable and accessible without resorting to reading a "how to" guide.

You're a lot younger than I, molgrips.

I hope I'm this excited by new technology when I'm her age. I'd hate to think there's nothing new to see any

The old chap who founded our company in 1967 was quite "hands on" and one day he looked at the sequence of numbers for the new formulations created and worked out that we should be buying a load of box files for storage. Somebody told him: "Ah, we don't need box files any more Mr D, everything is on the new computer". "Yes, but where do you put the formulations?" he replied. "They're stored on the computer Mr D!" "Yes, but where do you actually put the [i]formulations[/i]?"

He got on the phone to the supplier and ordered a dozen new box files, which got quietly sent back once he'd forgotten about them.

You're a lot younger than I, molgrips.

True, but I wonder what practical difference does that make? Perhaps because I've had more exposure to tech than you? Maybe it was part of my life at some kind of formative stage? Interesting question.

It will be interesting to see if my generation ends up like the current lot of 80 year olds when we ourselves are 80. Or if our skills will continue to be transferrable.

thought it probably needed charging

Did it? My experience of iDevices is that they don't usually need charging out-of-the-box and before setup, but I suppose some may come with flat batteries.

How does one use a new piece of kit without a manual?

Ever bought a claw hammer with a manual? Ever wondered how many people don't know what the claw is for? People have been making tools without manuals for decades. It's not unique to modern tech and the fact you did manage to turn it on and follow the instructions is some testament to the efficacy of the manual-free approach. Is it not?

Reading your post, it does sound a bit like you wanted the experience to be a bad one. Am I right? 🙂

A 500 quid lesson on being too old, or is it technology not suited to older people? I've read plenty of manuals. One can stick post-it notes, use highlighters, mark pages, scribble in margins, flick backwards and forwards, read and re-read.

My Gran is 90 and struggles to change a lightbulb, and even she managed to get an iPad up and running.

And my dad (who likes sailing boats, narrow boats, and 1950's Russian motorbikes for technology savy context) manages to use an Android tablet.

You might be older than one, but you're not older than my nan!

He got on the phone to the supplier and ordered a dozen new box files, which got quietly sent back once he'd forgotten about them.

Gods help you if you don't have backups and the hard drive crashed, mind.

I have not yet got my Atari ST out of the loft to show the kids. I have a feeling they'll love the games.. Buggy Boy will be a hit.

Don't be so soft. Start 'em on Rick Dangerous.

My Mum has told herself that she can't use a smartphone or a tablet. It's a bit frustrating because she uses more complicated stuff at work all the time without a second thought.
...
True, but I wonder what practical difference does that make? Perhaps because I've had more exposure to tech than you? Maybe it was part of my life at some kind of formative stage? Interesting question.

I think perhaps it is a mindset thing. Some people fear change perhaps, and see this as some sort of New World Order. And some just like to wear their lack of skills like a badge of pride, I've had people proudly tell me "I don't understand any of this computer shit" (whilst working in Finance).

[i]I looked for a manual in the box. There wasn't one. There wasn't even a get you started booklet. How does one use a new piece of kit without a manual? [/i]

the manuals are on the internet!

http://help.apple.com/ipad/9/#/

People used to technology seem to forget that we've had decades to learn the terminology and techniques and as most new products are a small evolutionary step onwards the lack of a manual probably isn't a big deal. For someone starting from little or no experience it's a much bigger problem.

Even in that video the guy explaining stuff to his grandfather is using terms that probably mean nothing to old fella and even if they do the information is coming at such a rate that he's little chance of retaining much of it.

and some just like to wear their lack of skills like a badge of pride

At least they're advertising it plainly, it's quite helpful, a bit like a sign, saves time in finding out what they're like. Etc.

the manuals are on the internet!

Reminds me of an old episode of Cheers where Woody had bought a VCR. "Are you sure you know how to set that up Woody?" they asked, "they're pretty complicated things."

"Oh, it's fine," he replies, "it comes with an instructional video."

I got so annoyed that I thought I'd leave it until I came back. And then I'd forgotten the stupid password.

slowoldgit - you're not alone! I took my Samsung tablet back to the high street retailer whom I'd bought it from and told them I'd forgotten my password. Once they realised they were dealing with a halfwit (did have my receipt though) they sorted me out quickly, clearly to get me out of the shop pronto. 😳 Very helpful so no complaints.

At least they're advertising it plainly, it's quite helpful, a bit like a sign, saves time in finding out what they're like. Etc.

Good point. As in Bill Engvall's "here's your sign" sketch.

You can't honestly believe that? Just think of the improvements in safety, suspension, gearboxes, efficiency, power etc. Here are the basic specs from a Ford Model T from ~100 years ago; engine produced 20 hp giving a top speed of 40–45 mph and 16-25 mpg.

Okay, so lets compare then. We can't go back 100 years for computers, but 70 should suffice.

[u][b]Cost[/b][/u]

In 1916 a Model T Ford cost $345 USD (roughly $9,000 in today's money)
In 2016 a 2.0l Ford Focus costs [url= http://www.lonestarford.com/new-inventory/index.htm?model=Focus&&&& ]around $19,000 USD[/url] + taxes

In 1946 ENIAC cost $487,000 (about $6,816,000 in today's money)
In 2016 an ATtiny85 costs less than a dollar.

[u][b]Energy Efficiency[/b][/u]

As you said a Model T got around 16-25mpg and 20bhp.
In 2016 a 2.0l Ford Focus gets [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_%28third_generation%29#Engine_lineup_in_North_America ]around 31mpg and 160bhp[/url]

The ENIAC required 150 kW of electricity.
An ATtiny85 requires 0.025 watts.

[u][b]Speed[/b][/u]

Difficult because we obviously don't have a 0-60 time for the Model T - but lets be generous and say a modern Ford accelerates maybe 50 times faster?

The ENIAC could do around 5,000 operations a second.
An ATtiny85 can do 20,000,000 instructions per second (and they are considerably more complex than the ENIAC operations too).

[u][b]Weight[/b][/u]

Model T = 540kg
Ford Focus = 1,270–1,471 kg

ENAIC = 27,000 kg
ATtiny85 = < 0.001 kg

[u][b]Conclusion[/b][/u]
So yeah, if we are comparing rates of technological change I think electronics/computers (& software) have developed at an absolutely astounding rate compared to more established technologies like cars.

Computers are so cheap now that they can [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/4hVG2Br1W1LKCmw8nSm9WnQ/the-bbc-micro-bit ]give them away free in schools[/url] or as [url= https://www.raspberrypi.org/magpi/issues/40/ ]cover gifts on magazines[/url].
They are so efficient that the always-on Garmin activity tracker I'm wearing lasts a year on a tiny coin cell battery.
They are so tiny that they have components reaching atomic limitations where quantum effects become an issue.
And they are so powerful that even your phone will take an HD video and happily identify and swap your face with your cat's in real time. 😀

the lack of a manual probably isn't a big deal. For someone starting from little or no experience it's a much bigger problem.

The trick is to put aside your preconceptions that it is going to be a difficult experience and go with the flow. Assuming you can get past the first hurdle of turning on a modern smartphone/tablet, it does then walk you through the rest of the steps to set it up. It requires some trust that Apple et al know best and I suspect this is what a lot of people struggle with.*

*on this subject when I first got a Mac I struggle to get on with the iPhoto app, trying to manage photos the "way I was used to". When I succumbed to/embraced the Apple way it made a world of difference to my enjoyment and productivity.

A clear and concise manual approved by the Plain English Campaign is essential, as are clear pics.

A clear and concise manual approved by the Plain English Campaign is essential, as are clear pics.

It really isn't. If you need a comprehensive manual to use it then the design has failed.

As stilltortoise says, how many people need a manual for a hammer?

yes, because an ipad is no more complicated than a hammer.

i know it's possible to do a screengrab with an ipad, but i don't know how.

i imagine it's possible to hotlink images to this website using an ipad, i've tried but got nowhere.

hammers? no problem.

I can see it now, iPad manual page 2154734: [i]"How to post images on Singletrack"[/i] 😀

It really isn't. If you need a comprehensive manual to use it then the design has failed.

Fair point Graham, should probably have said a manual with the basics and approved by the PEC.

As stilltortoise says, how many people need a manual for a hammer?

That's just being silly. 😀

The problem with a manual is knowing how to access the information you need to know at the point you need to know it.

Google and natural language query engines are far better at giving access to help than an index in a manual - you don't even have to use the right terminology to find the answer you need online, with a manual you need to know what the thing you want to do is called before you even look it up.

I can't stand touchscreens. I'm going to be very bewildered by tech when I'm old/older.

Yak - agree with you re touchscreens, ime they just don't work properly. Am already bewildered by tech but it's an age thing. 😉

Fair point Graham, should probably have said a manual with the basics and approved by the PEC.

Okay a Quick Start Guide might be useful for some people - but honestly with something like an iPad, it only has a couple of buttons. Once you figure out which button turns it on it pretty much holds your hand from there.

And if that fails then Apple have free workshops and training sessions to help the technologically-challenged get to grips with these things.