so is this the sign the democracy doesn't actually work
I think it's a sign it's not working how the bankers want it to work
er... not sure what this relates to, but if carried out to the letter of the theory, then the answer's 'not really, it's just an alternative'.
If it's carried out more in the way such things are, then 'no, it's just the democratically elected government trying to choose the most qualified people for specific jobs'.
and if it is the case of Italy where it seems the democratically elected prime minister has been forced to resign by the markets and replaced by a bunch of economists?
Burlusconis election was hardly the most democratic tho - own most of the media and get them to give you positive press while rubbishing your opponents and then changing the law when you get charged with crimes.
One of the worst crooks ever to get political power. Like the worst of Murdoch and maxwell being UK PM
er... not sure what this relates to
😯
trying to choose the most qualified people
Well if they weren't elected by anyone, then they are not qualified at all to be part of a representative government. Although they might be qualified to represent the best interests of bankers.
Whether an elected government does a "good job" or not of the economy, is not the issue. Under a parliamentary democracy everyone has the right to choose a government which will screw up their economy, if they so wish.
Any problems/crises which might arise should only be resolved by holding fresh elections.
There is no reason why the 17 unelected technocrats which now rule Italy can't stand for election, other than that the Italian people might not vote for them of course.
You either believe in this charade that passes for democracy, and the myth that the electorate, not industrialists and bankers, dictate government policy, or you don't. You can't chop and change depending on the likely outcome of elections.
[i][b]"As a minister, I experienced the power of industrialists and bankers to get their way by use of the crudest form of economic pressure, even blackmail, against a Labour Government. Compared to this, the pressure brought to bear in industrial disputes is minuscule. This power was revealed even more clearly in 1976 when the IMF secured cuts in our public expenditure. These lessons led me to the conclusion that the UK is only superficially governed by MPs and the voters who elect them. Parliamentary democracy is, in truth, little more than a means of securing a periodical change in the management team, which is then allowed to preside over a system that remains in essence intact. If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum."[/b][/i]
[i]Tony Benn[/i]
The problem with blaming the markets is that you are only in their thrall if you borrow too much. That said, I am highly uncomfortable with overthrowing of an elected government by an EU cabal.
yes everyone at the moment suffering due to the bankers [ say job loss fo rexample in the public sector or manufacturing] personally borrowed to much - what an odd view to have.
Apart from a mortgage i pay I have no other debt but i have had my salary capped then reduced this year like many folk- basically thats BS
If the British people were ever to ask themselves what power they truly enjoyed under our political system they would be amazed to discover how little it is, and some new Chartist agitation might be born and might quickly gather momentum.
I often wonder just how shit on the UK electorate has to get, before it'll wake up and go for a true alternative.
I often wonder just how shit on the UK electorate has to get, before it'll wake up and go for a true alternative.
Panem et Circensis, just make sure X factor keeps going, and make sure the electorate don't understand the power they actually have.
Through human history why have the majority submitted to the rule of the minority, why should the duke of devonshire have huge estates when other live in cardboard boxes?
why should the duke of devonshire have huge estates when other live in cardboard boxes
other dukes live in cardboard boxes?
things are tougher out there than I thought
Mrmo
This is the next stage in the drawn out saga of the unravelling of the Euro project as we know it now. There has been the financial and political turmoil that has engulfed banks and sovereigns alike. The denoument is just starting now and this will be increased social turmoil. Forget the inflammatory comments about "how bankers want it to work", and focus on what is happening.
Unelected representatives have now been given the mandate to impose draconian auterity measures in their economies that are already struggling to achieve growth. This will lead to significant social unrest in several European economies and will be the final straw in some cases. The result will be a final realisation that to restore cost competitiveness to their economies several countries will need to introduce a new form of Euro arrangement or leave the Euro altogether. The only certainty in this will be that the politicians will remain behind the curve in terms of their populations and the financial markets.
It will not be pretty.
i agree with THM - a first- less sure what the outcome will be though. I suppose it depends on which is stronger - political will or economic force. who knows
+1 for the quotes from Tony Benn
I was referring to public debt not personal, i.e. if government lived within their means, they would not be at the mercy of the markets.
Well put, Ernie. This is a farce, not democracy. Technocrats, notably those favourable to the United States of Europe cause, are being foisted upon the elctorates without so much as a by your leave.
Greece and Italy should, if democracy still exists there, go to the polls forthwith.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Well put, Ernie. This is a farce, not democracy. Technocrats, notably those favourable to the United States of Europe cause, are being foisted upon the elctorates without so much as a by your leave.Greece and Italy should, if democracy still exists there, go to the polls forthwith.
I agree with this, but I do wonder how the population could force an election on their rulers?
IIRC, the Italian constitution makes provision, in such circs, for there to be an election within a certain period of time. Not 100% sure, however.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
...Greece and Italy should, if democracy still exists there, go to the polls forthwith.
Or better yet, do the democratic thing like the Arabs. Revolt. Arab Spring, European Winter?
I'm sure France and UK will send in bombers to assist the democratic uprisings. 🙂
Having previously considered, on balance, the EU to be an acceptable means if standardisation and an effective trading bloc against the US, this has radically altered my view.
I have long shared Benn's view of powers outside government and, since it's effectively impossible for a modern nation state to operate without borrowing, this is the most brazen example of modern-day Intra-European aggression since, well, the last unpleasantness.
I don't care how bust Italy or Greece are, or how flush Germany is (and how keen Sarkozy suddenly is to side with Merkel), this is no way to carry on. None at all.
What we need is a political party called the " geeksquad" strapline : 'we'll get the bankers lending' . Gives us the option if we dont like the look of em and we all end up making widgets for the chinese weve only got ourselves to blame.
O and just for the benefit of anyone i have discussed europe with in the last 10 years .... Told you so!
ourmaninthenorth - Member
Having previously considered, on balance, the EU to be an acceptable means if standardisation and an effective trading bloc against the US, this has radically altered my view.I have long shared Benn's view of powers outside government and, since it's effectively impossible for a modern nation state to operate without borrowing, this is the most brazen example of modern-day Intra-European aggression since, well, the last unpleasantness.
I don't care how bust Italy or Greece are, or how flush Germany is (and how keen Sarkozy suddenly is to side with Merkel), this is no way to carry on. None at all.
The French are just trying to side up with the bully in the playground to try and hide their own fiscal weaknesses 😉
I have read a few articles which suggest that the powers that be in Germany are using the current economic situation to impose their rule and way of life on the rest of the eurozone. They failed twice via conventional war, but now it seems they may win via economic/financial war!
It's an ad interim gov,there was another one less than 10ys ago.
pretty standard fare,it's not the first time a gov doesn't reach the end of it's mandate in italy.
probl vote in the spring.
Let's see what happens to his pending trials-being unemployed he's got plenty of time and no excuses now.
forgot some music,no reference to persons..etc.
ho hum,aye.
I have read a few articles which suggest that the powers that be in Germany are using the current economic situation to impose their rule and way of life on the rest of the eurozone. They failed twice via conventional war, but now it seems they may win via economic/financial war!
🙄
Come on then TJ, defend your beloved Eurocrats as they ride roughshod over democratic process. Or, whisper it quietly, is that what you wanted? Union of European Socialist Republics......
So just to sum up, we're raging - RAGING - because the new Italian prime minister has appointed competent qualified academics who might actually be able to resolve the problems presented by Europe's most indebted nation, which to date has appeared to have no plan for resolving its lack of growth or structural imbalances in a way that would improve its - or any other European country's - lot, rather than stuffing the government with his cronies?
Fair point, I guess, we should let the proletariat have their say, because it's worked so well in recent years in Italy. 🙄
Strange times
did Italian GCSE and A level 10 and 8 years ago as an adult learner. Used to read italian newsmags all the time. This was always going to come. I remember learning chunks of Helmut Kohl on the stupidity of the Italians joining the euro... This is a country, a beautiful lovely country, where the Government claimed to have overtaken the GDP of the UK.... provided you took the turnover of the Mafia into consideration...
With Italy and Greece - until you get acceptance that tax should be paid - and that local regional and national government should not be led by transparently self-interested groups - they are screwed.
read "The dark heart of Italy" by Tobias Jones...
nicko74
well said
we should let the proletariat have their say
Yes we f***ing well should. That's what democracy is all about. Sometimes you may not agree with the decision of the people, or proles as you wish to call them, but the people should decide. Arguing against this principle is simply calling for some mad dictatorship, or some mad form of communism. Neither are a good option.
You appear to think that replacing a democratically elected government is OK, as long as it is one that you agree with. That's not how democracy works, I'm afraid.
It's not about the chap in charge of Italy and who he chooses to appoint, it's about the fact that the Italians have had no say on this issue.
It's an ad interim gov,there was another one less than 10ys ago.
Well of course it's just temporary, they'll be in power just long enough to do what the elected representatives weren't prepared to do. As far as I'm aware no election date has been announced. And don't be under any illusion, if the democratically elected government had done what the bankers had expected and demanded, then they would still be in government today.
And I don't think previous failings of democracy in Italy is any justification - you can't argue that elected government is sacrosanct, except when you don't like how things are going, in which case unelected technocrats can take over. If that situation arises you call an immediate election. Otherwise your whole argument for parliamentary democracy goes out of the window.
Parliamentary democracy includes voting for governments with bad economic policies. Any opposition to it should come from the people - not industrialists and bankers.
As it stands parliamentary democracy is a pretty limited form of democracy, take that away and you really don't have much left.
Much as I dislike our government I have no wish for industrialists and bankers to step in and replace them with their own appointed individuals.
will do,I remember the italians,by barzini,and the new italians by richards being quite good.
and lawrence's sketches of etruscan places.
Some bits of italy work really well,Trentino,the get to keep most of the taxes they pay,and spend it wisely.I remember piemonte being quite good,Emilia romagna was pretty good.tuscany could be so much more.
never been further south,but it seems to get worse.and worse.
shame,it's a place with so much.and great riding.
you can't argue that elected government is sacrosanct, except when you don't like how things are going, in which case unelected technocrats take over. If that situation arises you call an immediate election. Otherwise your whole argument for parliamentary democracy goes out of the window.
When Ernie and I agree, etc....
Ernie - who appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?
Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
ernie,I agree.
having said that,democracy has been eroded quite severely in italy by the fact that B created a certain type of italian,or at least gave it some form of justification.a-by his example.b-by the constant bombardment with private(and now state-as he changed everybody in RAI to suit him) media.
And that's not democratic in spirit,though it is in form.
(barely,seeing as lots of dead people seemed to have voted B)
Tj,but how about those that voted libdem and then saw that they had supported the tories.
In italy you can't choose the candidate,just the party.that's not really very democratic is it?
CaptainFlashheart - MemberArguing against this principle is simply calling for some mad dictatorship, or some mad form of communism
And you know who's behind all this - the Italian president Giorgio Napolitano. Giorgio Napolitano was an inspiring European [i]communist[/i] leader committed to eurocommunism/parliamentary democracy during my formative years, I've even heard him make live speeches. Unlike him however, I've kept the faith 🙂
I hear Cuba's lovely at this time of year, Ernie. 😉
Oh look, another "lets bash the EU" thread. 🙄
Only this time with a twist, being those who don't like the the EU for it's slightly socialist agenda, are now attacking because the Capitalist technocrat bankers have taken charge.
Perhaps you should read that Tony Benn passage further up the thread, because it doesn't matter whether it's the EU, US or whatever political/economic ideology, the bankers and those of their ilk(like the ones who currently occupy cabinet positions) have always held sway over us where ever we are. Italy and Greece have further demonstrated that Democracy the world over is an illusion with their technocrats.
I'm sure we will continue to believe all this is justified because those at the top and their wealth will "trickle down" to us, even as they pay themselves more and more and we get squeezed more and more.
But I doubt this will wake enough people up, particularly in this country. Perhaps democracy needs to disappear for a bit, then we might miss it when it's gone.
I'm Pro-Eu, just not pro this current EU.
the bankers and those of their ilk(like the ones who currently occupy cabinet positions) have always held sway over us where ever we are.
The difference is that here in the UK there is still a limited check in the way they operate, despite the power they wield. In Italy the 17 technocrats which now make up the government don't have to worry about such niceties like standing for election - and possibly getting rejected by the electorate.
Elected government/universal suffrage is far from perfect, and there is widespread cynicism of its value, with a substantial and growing proportion of the electorate not participating. But the alternative, ie, the absence of elected government, even if temporary, is both immeasurable less desirable, and dangerous.
What is needed is more and better democracy, not less.
CaptainFlashheart - Member
Come on then TJ, defend your beloved Eurocrats as they ride roughshod over democratic process
bit like dave and the referendum vote then?
So, sorry, let me get this straight.
Elected idiots who run the country into the ground are better because they're *elected* idiots.
Appointed experts who may be able to resolve the years of mistakes made by the idiots are bad because they're not elected, although they are more than capable of solving the problems caused by the last lot?
Yes, democracy is good. Yes, autocratic rule is bad. But when the elected idiots have turned the economy to sh*t, and a solution is needed and can't be provided by anyone else, would you rather more elected idiots, or a period of appointed experts who can fix the problems (and stand for re-election in the next elections)? We're not talking a wholesale change to appointed government, but a temporary resumption of common sense to solve the economic problems. Hell, if it's good enough for Gordon Brown and his Clowns....
Elected idiots who run the country into the ground are better because they're *elected* idiots.
Appointed experts who may be able to resolve the years of mistakes made by the idiots are bad because they're not elected, although they are more than capable of solving the problems caused by the last lot?
Basically, if you believe democracy is a good thing then yes,
As for comments about paying taxes have a look at California. Give the electorate the choice of pay no tax and maintain spending levels.
Tax avoidance is not a Greek and Italian thing, they may have taken it to a different level, but all corporations enact tax minimisation policies, most voters try and do what they can to avoid tax, how may people would declare bike bits imported into the EU and pay the duties if they aren't caught , of course not you got it a bit cheaper.
TandemJeremy - Memberwho appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?
Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
TandemJeremy - Member
who appointed them? the democratically elected Italian PM?Its not like we never have non elected people appointed by our elected representative's with great power in our government is it?
Baroness Warsi?
Monti isn't a democratically elected politician, he is a Life Senator, so his position in the parliament is that of an appointee, much like a life Peer (although Life Senator are far smaller in number (7 I believe). He has then appointed a cabinet which consists of zero politicians.
That is a pretty big difference to someone who is an ex-officio member of the cabinet by virtue of her party duties. If you were smarter and less partisan, you could have used Mandelson or if you have to have a Tory, maybe Young or Carrington, even so the odd member of the cabinet is very different from the whole cabinet including the PM.
It is generally accepted in this country, since Salisbury, that the PM has to be an elected representative and Home gave up his peerage to so become.
. If you were smarter and less partisan, you could have used Mandelson
couldn't think of anyone else at the time Mandelson is a very good example
These appointees all have to be confirmed by the parliament do they not? to me its not the huge issue that people are making it out to be - but then I am much more cynical about our "Democracy" than many
or a period of appointed experts who can fix the problems (and stand for re-election in the next elections)?
At the risk of invoking Goodwins law
There was once a time in Europe where someone 😉 was appointed with the promise of general elections in 3 months time
Unfortunately there was a communist uprising signalled by the torching of the [strike]Reichs..[/strike] parliament building so the appointee declared himself in charge and had laws passed for the '[i] Protection of the People and the State[/i]' banning lots of the other political parties which meant he went on to win the said election.
He is putting a vote of confidence before both houses, the extent to which he requires parliamentary support to effect his reforms I have no idea. Still my view is that the executive should be elected representatives.
Describing people as technocrats often obscures the ideological underpinnings of what they are doing.
Exactly. Whats most worrying about this whole situation is the reason why they're over-riding democratic government. And there is a very real reason.
There's no way on earth that any electorate are going to vote for anyone who's going to put them through what is about to happen to them. It has to be imposed. And if that means suspending democracy for the duration, then so be it!
That would all be fine if the actions taken ultimately represented the best interests of the country. But they don't. Far from it. These regimes represent the interests of the financial institutions, to the total exclusion of any other consideration.
"The Markets' will recoup the maximum amount of their reckless lending, plus interest, whatever the cost. Look at Greece. Austerity is actually shrinking their economy at a ridiculous rate. Its collapsing and threatening the future viability of an entire society. Do 'The Markets' care? Do they ****! They just want their money back. NOW!!!
Its short termism taken to a frankly ridiculous degree. Its terrifying!
Would you say, binbins that perhaps it's a slightly altered version of disaster capitalism. You don't have any books to recommend on that do you? 🙂
Steve Bell's take on the Northern Rock purchase:
[img] 
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I do tend to bang on about it a bit, don't I DD? I'm nothing if not tedious and repetitive. Its the early onset Alzheimers 😉
Read this:
[img] 
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Basically summarises exactly whats happening in Europe at present. Written a good few years ago, before all the present hoo-ha. Scary
Edit: On a side note, I think we should all start referring to you as 'Bravisimo' from now on. Not only as its mildly amusing, but also to ensure the continued presence of [b]that[/b] advert which always accompanies you 😀
binners - Member
...There's no way on earth that any electorate are going to vote for anyone who's going to put them through what is about to happen to them. It has to be imposed. And if that means suspending democracy for the duration, then so be it!...
It has to be imposed but only so that the financiers get their money back, not for the benefit of the electorate.
The answer is revolution.
I would probably agree with the main conclusions but Naomi Klein is the height (nadir) of read-a-few-articles-skimmed-the-surface-wrote-a-short-and-unchallenging-book-at-the-right-time. I can't stand her. She's Johann Hari with less humour and more fact-checking.