[Closed] Team GB - the new East Germany?

the reason east Germany were so successful is they were doping on an industrial scale.

so yes, we are the same 😉

Doesn't it just reflect the effectiveness of selective Lottery funding for carefully selected, elite athletes?

East Germany was state funded.
GB is lottery funded.

I can't see how the successful use of lottery money reflects a (supposed) failure in manufacturing and building homes.

I believe we're pretty good at manufacturing, but only certain sectors where cheap labour isn't a factor.

EDIT - Number of indoor velodromes in the massive USA? 1. Number in the UK? 5 of Olympic standard, plus Calshot.

Sadly, I suspect Warton is on the money.

Suspect is when Romania manages to come 2nd in the medal table in the 1980 Moscow Olympics 🙄
[img] [/img]

We are choosing to put lottery (state) money into specific sports, funding a few elite competitors rather than "sport for all", while libraries are closing, food banks are sprouting, arts are losing funds.

Scruff, why do you say that?

I'd like to think GB athletes are clean although I know that it's unlikely they all are. Just wondered if you have seen or read something that makes you think that way.

How did the us come first in Moscow? They weren't there??

Maybe that's the L.A ones .

Team GB is gettin huge numbers of medals at the Olympics, far more than would be expected for a country of our size.

If you factor in population then we were 16th overall this morning below New Zealand, Australia, Hungary and the Netherlands so we are not winning far more medals than would be expected for a country of our size. I reckon Team GB are actually performing at about where they should be given the population and GDP.

Does this success reflect our failure to do well at more important activities - manufacturing and building homes, for starters?

Probably not.

far more than would be expected for a country of our size

And this year there's a big chunk of Russian competitors not there that potentially news the table a bit (although more likely to become apparent over the next few days).

Suspect is when Romania manages to come 2nd in the medal table in the 1980 Moscow Olympics

Definitely not 1980, must be 84.

Little New Zealand are 8th! There's only about 4 million of them! Not that's suspect!

You could just take the tin-foil hat off and enjoy the Games for what they are. 😉

This was done on the BBC More or Less programme recently. I seem to recall they concluded that GB would expect to be somewhere about 3rd in the medal tables based on population and GDP, so performance seems to be pretty much as expected.

UK Sport was given the task of improving the number of medal winners at World Championship and Olympic level. To do this they have received money from the Exchequer and the National Lottery (Does anyone know the split between State funds and Lottery funds?).

You can't argue with their results, UK Sport has taken the funding and massively improved the UK's standing at international sporting events. Some argue that the way that UK Sport has funneled the money into sports which will give the best return with regards to world class performances has been to the detriment of other sports. UK Sport would argue that they have spent the funding wisely to get the best results and if you want a wider range of sports funding then give them more money.

If people really don't like the UK winning medals at the Olympics then you can always not buy a lottery ticket.

gobuchul - Member

Little New Zealand are 8th! There's only about 4 million of them! Not that's suspect!

New Zealand is full of awe-inspiring genetically blessed sportspeople though, like Hels.

Oops, yep that's the LA ones.

Team GB is a highly effective promotional tool for British nationalism.

It's red-faced commentators screaming. It's Sir Chris interviewing Sir Bradley about what makes Team GB world beaters. It's the dirge of God Save the Queen. It's the smothering of Welsh, Scottish and Irish identity. It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

It's the smothering of Welsh, Scottish and Irish identity.

Stop being racist. Yes the Northern Irish have claim to be upset (Team UK) but don't leave the English out of the smothering accusations. Haven't seen a flag of St George anywhere. Plenty of Saltires and Tam O'Shanters infiltrating Cobham's finest tennis player's match last night too.

It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

What a crock! We take money of low income people via the extraordinary mechanism that is the lottery to give to our sports stars. It would be doubly cheeky to ask them to pay to watch the results too. I saw them cover and interview some Jamaican and SA blokes last night who looked pretty good too. There was some shots of some American swimmers and a Hungarian one as well. Why are they wasting their time on that lot?

Back to the OP - we seem to have found the recipe for success. I hope they can bottle it for future use!

We have spent £350m of lottery money on the athletes, coaches and everything else that goes with it for this olympic cycle,so Im glad the results are coming

It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

Most of last nights gushing was for a South African and a Jamaican.

Sydney Games - athlete/coach/equipment budget £69m
Rio Games - £360m

This plus greater anti doping control means our superior organisation and rescources means more medals

BTW

It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

French TV is no different, except best stuff is on subscription only tv to boot

copa - Member
Team GB is a highly effective promotional tool for British nationalism.

It's red-faced commentators screaming. It's Sir Chris interviewing Sir Bradley about what makes Team GB world beaters. It's the dirge of God Save the Queen. It's the smothering of Welsh, Scottish and Irish identity. It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

Having met one of the performance directors of UK Sport, they apply very strict criteria to how funded programmes are funded and are supported. Probably feels very sterile for some, but delivers results. There's too many in the media with an Anti-Murdoch stance that would relish the prospect of a GB or Sky rider caught doping and now with a number of ex-Sky riders there's still not a whiff of suspicion except from others' over-fertile imaginations.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Gr%C3%B6bler ]in rowing yes we are the new east germany :)[/url] Had the pleasure of watching him work at very close quarters.... his technique seems to be shouting very loudly in the face of the athletes !

UK is four or five times the size that East Germany was, so I'd have to say no to the question posed.

Is the UK success down to a state sponsored programme? Yes.
Is it doping? Well I can only lyrics go by the ioc, wada and the rest. They seem happy with the UK athletes.

Was the focus on sport the main detriment to East Germany or was it a hell of a lot deeper than that?
Is this thread just another blow smoke near team GB to make it look like smoke so people can go look no smoke without fire they are all doping? Not sure...

[quote=Moses ]Discuss...

Strangely enough, no, we don't seem to have got a medal in that - a fair amount of success for East Germany though.

"Oh no I live in a country that is being a success at sport, must try and find a way to feel better about my own inadequacy by smear, innuendo and a general whine".

Dear BBC,

Can you please stop show casing the success of the sports people from the countries that pay your licence. Could you please play down any success by reminding us that our Athletes were selfishly leaving others behind, what sort of example is that. Can you not put on a depressed, dour Olympics for the terminally boring and miserable.

Yours in depressing greyness

I Hate Winners

New Zealand is full of awe-inspiring genetically blessed sportspeople

It's full of crazy drunk @#$%s who seemed to like punching me in the face. They must have some kind of secret signal. They pretend to be all friendly and all, then you make a harmless little joke and they all start punching you. Then they all go back to being friendly again. Bloody psychos. Should all be transported to Australia for the terms of their natural lives.

Why does NZ need to "import" so many rugby players then?

My post about doping was very much tongue in cheek.

certain athletes are suspect, but there's certainly no widespread state funded doping programme in the UK.

as others have said, we are very ruthless in awarding funding. if a sport over achieves it gets more money, if it under achieves it's funding is pretty much stopped, freeing up mare money to go to sports like cycling. expect a big spike in funding for swimming and gymnastics in the next four years....

[quote=copa ]Team GB is a highly effective promotional tool for British nationalism.
It's red-faced commentators screaming. It's Sir Chris interviewing Sir Bradley about what makes Team GB world beaters. It's the dirge of God Save the Queen. It's the smothering of Welsh, Scottish and Irish identity. It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

[img] [/img]

Strangely enough, no, we don't seem to have got a medal in that - a fair amount of success for East Germany though.

😆

Team GB is a highly effective promotional tool for British nationalism.

It's red-faced commentators screaming. It's Sir Chris interviewing Sir Bradley about what makes Team GB world beaters. It's the dirge of God Save the Queen. It's the smothering of Welsh, Scottish and Irish identity. It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

I don't don't know if any of the British athletes are on drugs but I think someone is desperately in need of some medication.

We are choosing to put lottery (state) money into specific sports, funding a few elite competitors rather than "sport for all", while libraries are closing, food banks are sprouting, arts are losing funds.

This. They (the government) won't even give back the extra lottery money they "borrowed" to host 2012, despite not having spent it:

*Government takes £425M from Lottery funds to build the Olympic Village

*Turns out the government underspent by £500M overall on the Olympics

*Government plans to return the money in the next decade. Or possibly the one after that.

*Interestingly, that stadium they're letting West Ham have for 99 years at £2.5M per annum cost £486M to build.

Dunno what people know about Lottery funded projects, the heritage stuff seems to be the most noticeable. The place I work has a couple of Lottery funded projects. One's working with some of the "hardest to reach" - "multiple complex needs" so think personality disorder, coupled with homelessness and substance misuse. Ultimately moving people into Education, training and employment. The other working with slightly lower needs, but again getting results with people that wouldn't leave the house at all, full stop, and are now going out to work all day. This kinda thing benefits individuals and also wider society - more economically productive, less drain on social care, criminal justice, the health service etc etc.

One could perhaps argue that this is a more worthwhile use of the lottery money than intensive support to a small number of elite sportspeople (who, in many cases, then go on to accrue substantial personal wealth off the back of the achievements that we've all supported).

This discussion on Radio2 now....

Jeremy Vine? I'm sure it'll make this place seem quite reasonable!

Edit...

This discussion on Radio2 now....

Seemed to be two people ranting at each other rather than a discussion. I could only listen to about 2 minutes before i had to turn it off 🙁

Who are these imported rugby players in New Zealand teamhurtmore ?

Did we not clear this up at World Cup time, when we established that the entire All Black squad were born in NZ with one exception, and he moved to Auckland when he was two ? (or something like that)

I think you need to refine your definition of New Zealander perhaps ? To the correct one that isn't a sly racist poke about Kiwis with pacific island heritage. Richie McCaw probably has an Irish ancestor somewhere - want to have a moan about that ?

I imagine the net flow of Kiwi rugby players is outward. There are several playing for Peebles just now, in any case.

NZ came below us (ahem, I mean, sorry a bit jingoisitic there) Team GB in the rugby anyway 😀

Team GB is gettin huge numbers of medals at the Olympics, far more than would be expected for a country of our size.

Don't forget Russia. Or lack of...

It's an ugly and jingoistic BBC, showing utter disdain for anything non Team GB.

So just like Spanish TV and newspapers, how dare they ignore Team GB (and everyone else) and only focus on the Spaniards!!!

[quote=Pimpmaster Jazz ]Don't forget Russia. Or lack of...

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but apart from in the athletics (where we don't win that many medals, and don't get beaten much by Russians) there isn't a huge lack of Russians. A couple of notable Russians who shouldn't be there who made the podium in cycling and swimming.

I'm sure the team GB'S success will inspire a fair number of people to take up certain sports but personally I'd rather the money was spent at local level improving facilities and improving the health of the people that pay for the lottery tickets. The lottery funding which comes disproportionately from the poorest has funded people like ennis and hoy to not only to be Olympic winners but to make 100k if not millions in endorsments. Bet they don't pay back their funding (unlike students who have to pay back there tuition fees). It was equally unfair when the lottery money funded Covent Garden to the tune of 2 billion. I rather have no Olympics Golds if it meant a few less school playing fields were sold off for housing or to build a Tescos.

I'm sure the team GB'S success will inspire a fair number of people to take up certain sports but personally I'd rather the money was spent at local level improving facilities and improving the health of the people that pay for the lottery tickets. The lottery funding which comes disproportionately from the poorest has funded people like ennis and hoy to not only to be Olympic winners but to make 100k if not millions in endorsments. Bet they don't pay back their funding (unlike students who have to pay back there tuition fees). ...I rather have no Olympics Golds if it meant a few less school playing fields were sold off for housing or to build a Tescos.

It'd be nice if they could do both. Poor old Nick Dempsey is going to have to get a proper job for the first time at the age of 36. He's been a full time civil servant windsurfer up to now and unlike the pros on the world tour he doesn't have to live in a van and tell everybody which sunglasses he is paid to wear.

I'm sure the team GB'S success will inspire a fair number of people to take up certain sports

The available evidence suggests "not really" actually. Well, that's perhaps a bit harsh, but certainly the promised legacy of mass participation after London 2012 hasn't materialised to any significant extent. And we hosted that one.

Following Max Whitlock's 3 medals there's been a surge in applications to join his club.

[quote=edlong ]The available evidence suggests "not really" actually. Well, that's perhaps a bit harsh, but certainly the promised legacy of mass participation after London 2012 hasn't materialised to any significant extent. And we hosted that one.

Well "mass participation" was quite clearly marketing bollox - participation is definitely boosted though, and it doesn't take much to save the money spent in other ways. It may be related to the clubs doing the right thing, (though they wouldn't get anywhere if people didn't turn up in the first place) but there's a lot more kids doing sports locally at clubs I'm involved with than there was only 10 years ago.

S*** stirring with political whinging. Go away until you have something nice to say.

Go away until you have something nice to say.

I don't think you've mastered this forum thing, where people can express opinions, whether you agree with them or not (within certain limitations of course).

Perhaps you should go away and find somewhere that only opinions you share are allowed to be expressed?

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07m7z12 ]More or Less: Olympic Medals expectations[/url]

We are choosing to put lottery (state) money into specific sports, funding a few elite competitors rather than "sport for all", while libraries are closing, food banks are sprouting, arts are losing funds.

Yes why don't they give everyone 5k to buy a really nice bike and engage the people , and burn the pointless sums if money they give to the arts

Hels - a good spot and my mistake. It was a throw away line but you prompted me to check the facts and realise that my comments were unfounded. Consider them withdrawn and thanks - I learned something today!

Yes, the UK is choosing to spend money on a halo/vanity project to buy an international profile and a "feel-good factor"

If it was spent on the NHS, for example, instead it would be rapidly absorbed, with little extra to show for it.

[quote=Aristotle ]Yes, the UK is choosing to spend money on a halo/vanity project to buy an international profile and a "feel-good factor" Trident replacement is on another thread.

"S*** stirring with political whinging. Go away until you have something nice to say"
mattsccm this is in itself a political statement. I hope that you will not take your own advice

Dp

If it was spent on the NHS, for example, instead it would be rapidly absorbed, with little extra to show for it.

"Oh no I live in a country that is being a success at sport, must try and find a way to feel better about my own inadequacy by smear, innuendo and a general whine".

Dear BBC,

Can you please stop show casing the success of the sports people from the countries that pay your licence. Could you please play down any success by reminding us that our Athletes were selfishly leaving others behind, what sort of example is that. Can you not put on a depressed, dour Olympics for the terminally boring and miserable.

Yours in depressing greyness

I Hate Winners

Even winners at the taxpayer's expense (and arguably, the national lottery is also a tax)?

It's nothing more than giving handouts to watch people run around in circles, window dressing for the upper classes to distract the unwashed masses with their own money.

We are choosing to put lottery (state) money into specific sports, funding a few elite competitors rather than "sport for all", while libraries are closing, food banks are sprouting, arts are losing funds.

Yes why don't they give everyone 5k to buy a really nice bike and engage the people , and burn the pointless sums if money they give to the arts

The arts encourage creative thinking - sports, especially track and field, encourages the kind of thinking approved of by countries such as China and East Germany.

Oh and..

They become responsive to grandiose schemes, and will display unequaled steadfastness, formidable energies and a special fitness in the performance of tasks which would stump superior people. It seems paradoxical that defeat in dealing with the possible should embolden people to attempt the impossible, but a familiarity with the mentality of the weak reveals that what seems a path of daring is actually an easy way out: It is to escape the responsibility for failure that the weak so eagerly throw themselves into grandiose undertakings. For when we fail in attaining the possible the blame is solely ours, but when we fail in attaining the impossible we are justified in attributing it to the magnitude of the task.

😈

Jimmy Saville

sports, especially track and field, encourages the kind of thinking approved of by countries such as China and East Germany.

For those bemoaning the money for rich sports stars remember most will earn less than you, many will be relying on their parents to live and compete? Why? Is that really the question? In a world where we have climbed all the mountains and explored every inch of it sport gives people an out and a way to lift themselves. Yes it's entertainment but it's also the good kind where people show their dedication and efforts as opposed to big brother and failed stars in the jungle.

Some of the haterz could reuse their posts across several "I'm angry but I don't know why" threads

For those bemoaning the money for rich sports stars remember most will earn less than you, many will be relying on their parents to live and compete? Why? Is that really the question? In a world where we have climbed all the mountains and explored every inch of it sport gives people an out and a way to lift themselves. Yes it's entertainment but it's also the good kind where people show their dedication and efforts as opposed to big brother and failed stars in the jungle.

There's **** loads of land undocumented by scientists, above and below the oceans.

What kind of thinking is that then? The communist sharing principles? Devotion to the great leader? Wall building?

The one that makes people feel good about doing mindlessly repetitive tasks for a state sponsored carrot.

If it's not about self-interest (professional, highly paid sports) - it's about self-renunciation.

Stopped watching when some arsehole in the female rowing team started banging on about how that if she'd come second it would have been all for nothing and there's no point in coming second and the olympics is like...the thing - during an interview. Bragging about putting your eggs all in one basket and elevating yourself above professional sportsmen - yeah awesome.

And they are happy, you on the other hand appear not to be. Go figure 😉

Nahh, they just bore me.

Now, Valentino Rossi? Or the TT guys? Not so much. 😛

I guess I just prefer the cynical thrill seeking nihilism of racing motorbikes for lots of cash. 😀

Tom makes a valid point about the lottery being a tax. Sadly (or luckily if you are a beneficiary) too many are unable or unwilling to understand that.

But on the legacy issue - plenty of evidence including in the last few days of current winners being inspired by their heros. And there is legacy there for sure. Sadly 99.9% of us do not have the inner drive and commitment to compete at this level. So the wider legacy issue starts with totally unrealistic parameters from the outset.

So the wider legacy issue starts with totally unrealistic parameters from the outset.

Last time I read some review on heart disease, dieting was way more efficient for cutting the risk of heart attacks in fatties than exercise was. But I'm out of the loop on that now, so I could be completely wrong. Feel free to correct me.

We don't need heroes and more people wanting to be olympians, we just need to stop gorging on calories and walk more. Society has become full of ridiculous black and white thinking.

Very binary thinking Tom. What about stuff that isn't heart attacks in fatties? What if you can reach those people as kids and keep them fitter and healthier? Into sport and educated about diet and fitness through something they enjoy?

Off the back of the Manchester games team GB got a s****y new cycling hq. The profile of that and the work put in had generated a massive interest in road cycling. It's got more people out buying and riding bikes. Wiggins winning the tour was a huge step forward in things like generating the interest and momentum that got 3 stages of le tour in the UK. Team Wiggins is brining a development side to it and people appear to be doing more and riding bike etc. It's led to more big participation bike events and much more.
So it's not all down to one ride in Athens but is that worth it?

And now the roads are full of fat people in full Sky sports gear riding 5k bikes.

Wooooo, progression let's use taxpayers money to market products back to them - come and buy your five grand road bikes so you can be as awesome as Wiggins! Gotta boost the consumer spending metrics so they forget 2009..

Even if it is good for public health, I think that the way it's been done is rather telling of humanity.

Reposting my own quote....
"Some of the haterz could reuse their posts across several "I'm angry but I don't know why" threads"

Ever feel the glass might be half full rather than half empty.

I think you've found the crux of the issue mike...I guess I'm just a pessimist

[img] [/img]

It sounds like it, if you want to try that hard to find reasons to get annoyed by something it's time to stop looking. It's not compulsory to watch....
As for the power of sport
https://www.storehouse.co/stories/t8hlv-riding-for-lesotho

[quote=mikewsmith ]So it's not all down to one ride in Athens but is that worth it?

To some extent it's all down to one ride in Barcelona.

and expanding on the good news part I linked to earlier looks like STW got the press release 😉
http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/the-story-of-phetetsos-bike/

Now the Grauniad is agreeing 🙂

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/17/olympics-hysteria-britain-turned-soviet-team-gb ]See - told you. [/url]

Bless 'em, the Daily Mash has rather amusingly taken up my point with considerably more wit than I managed a couple of days ago:

[b]Money for childhood anti-obesity campaign ‘has been spent on cycling medals’[/b]
18-08-16
Rio Olympic Games 2016 - Day Seven

PLANS to tackle childhood obesity have been scaled back because the money has been spent on winning Olympic cycling medals.

Officials had considered introducing new children’s sports facilities across the UK but admitted that priority was given to Sir Bradley Wiggins and some of his friends.

A government spokesman said: “Bradley Wiggins is cool. Overweight children are not cool.

“Also, this will mean a new era of breakfast cereal advertising contracts. Laura Trott and Jason Kenny will finally have the opportunity to put their name on some bikes that have been made in China.”

Meanwhile, experts said jealous foreigners casting aspersions over Britain’s glory simply fail to understand the nation’s idiotic obsession with Olympic success.

Professor Henry Brubaker said: “British people feel that medals for strangers provide better value for money than libraries, hospital beds and public roads where you can ride a bike without falling off.”

He added: “We laugh at Denmark, with its pathetic medal tally and outstanding quality of life.”