[Closed] Team GB medals/funding at the Olympics

I know the TdF had a big impact but I would’ve thought the British success in the Olympics has had a lot to do with the growth in cycling in this country.

There was a definite boom after both the London Olympics and the TdF although how long it lasted is debatable. It looks great on TV and then peopl go and try it and it's cold, wet, difficult, requires a decent amount of fitness and skill and, critically, the roads (and drivers on them), are terrible.

Elite success at the Olympics is built from 5-10 years previously when talented youth riders are spotted and put onto development programmes. Any youth inspired by Tokyo and looking to get into any sport will be looking at 3-4 years of decent results in youth competition, talent spotted and 3-4 years of proper training backed up by talent before reaching that level.

Every year in cycling there were one or two riders who would make it. I remember routinely seeing Tao G-H's name in Youth races as he went up the age categories, Elynor Backstedt (now a pro for Trek Segafredo) was always up there in Youth Girls. Fred Wright (now rides for Bahrain Victorious) was very high in the overall Youth Series in about 2015, same with Pfeiffer Georgi (she's Team DSM now) You see the names - the vast majority come in through the British Cycling club system then talent teams. It's quite interesting looking at old Youth results. But there's not really a short cut. It needs the opportunities to compete (which usually involves parents with deep pockets and a willingness to travel around the country alongside a network of people willing to organise races that very few people outside of that immediate circle really care about - it's difficult to get sponsorship and media coverage for things like that!) and a governing body with the resources to find and develop that talent.

Having safe accessible facilities is of course a major part of that. Closed circuits, BMX tracks that are well used and have a good network of people using them regularly.

International dick-waving isn’t cheap

What a horribly cynical viewpoint.

Funding sport doesn't just buy medals. People such as yourself are forever complaining about the UK being lazy and inactive. For people to want to do sport, you need to create role models with whom people can identify; you need to raise the profile of diverse sports and generate interest; you need to get people interested generally. The Olympics and other sporting competitions do all these things. And the facilities and programmes that generate medals also create involvement. If you're a kid, and you know someone who goes to gymnastics club, you're more likely to go yourself.

Personally I'd like to see even more funding. My kids or I could go to gymnastics club for example, but I've no idea how to get into say shooting, or equestrian sports, or motorsport. Or even skateboarding - I could buy a board and go to my local skate park but I won't get any kind of instruction or club to help me so I'd clearly just fall off all over the place. We need facilities and clubs, and we need them to be publicised and the sports to be normalised.

it’s cold, wet, difficult, requires a decent amount of fitness and skill and, critically, the roads (and drivers on them), are terrible.

The solution to that is more velodromes and dedicated racing circuits. It's pitiful how few we have. And people are currently whinging about Cardiff Council wanting to build a nice new outdoor velodrome and circuit on waste ground in the bay. The argument seems largely to revolve around the fact that we already have an outdoor facility at Maindy. That's true, however that is in a residential area and is likely to be better used to create housing in a nice well-served area and the sports facility can be built bigger and better where no-one wants to live.

We need facilities and clubs, and we need them to be publicised and the sports to be normalised.

This - see my point previously about parents being willing to drag their kids all over and be lucky enough to have a facility nearby and a supportive club using it.

Councils though don't have that long-term view - they don't see that building a quality BMX track (as opposed to pouring a bit of concrete on the ground and waiting for it to rain) could lead to an Olympic medal in 10 years time.

Rowing to get it's funding cut? I'd rather see the money in athletics facilities that anyone can use. It's ridiculous that athletics and rowing gets the same funding!

I have serious issues with using this money to fund people’s hobbies.

Isn't the whole point that it's turned the sports in question from being people's hobbies to being their careers?

I do share some of your concerns, and it'd be useful to see more convincing research on the relationship between Olympic success and wider participation / public health benefit.

Perhaps there's already been some on the post 2012 cycling boom, for example?

Shooting sports fail miserably on both these at the Olympics. It was almost entirely absent from the the BBC coverage so apart from a few die hards prepared to seek it out on an obscure discovery sub channel it will have passed most completely by. It was largely absent because we (the great British public) don’t really care about it and also with our medal hopeful not there, there was little to see in terms of chest thumping celebration. But even if the nation had gone gun crazy and taken up the ‘sport’ in droves after spaffing our load at the thrills of the Olympic visual spectacle it would have made exactly zero difference to our overall health. No one is ever going to be a bit more healthy being a bit more Amber Hill.

You're looking at the health aspect rather one dimensionally. What about the mental health aspect of it all? Shooting in general is a social activity, on just the air side I can think of four common classes that cater from the very young to the very old and vary in physical ability from being able to negotiate a course across terrain to sitting at a table. And that's just static targets, the clay stuff is truly skillful. Contrary to your opinion it is also quite physical, I'd love to see how you get on hefting a target rifle from a standing position and nailing shot after shot. Of course bench rest is the opposite but as said it caters for all physical abilities.

Like I say, cost of everything and value of nothing.

It’s ridiculous that athletics and rowing gets the same funding!

What's ridiculous is the arse-about-face mechanism where if you do well, the funding comes rolling in and you continue to do well and more funding comes and so on but if you do badly, the funding gets cut and...well then you're stuck in a bit of a hole with no funding to improve things so you do badly next time round and the funding gets cut further.

I'm not suggesting that you just throw money at everything but there needs to be some sort of "special measures" option whereby a governing body can be overseen by Sport England, UK Sport etc for the next funding cycle. What went wrong, why did [sport] not do well this time around, what can be done to fix it? questions asked, oversight (and if necessary root and branch overhaul) completed and then new funding commenced.

You’re looking at the health aspect rather one dimensionally. What about the mental health aspect of it all? Shooting in general is a social activity, on just the air side I can think of four common classes that cater from the very young to the very old and vary in physical ability from being able to negotiate a course across terrain to sitting at a table. And that’s just static targets, the clay stuff is truly skillful. Contrary to your opinion it is also quite physical, I’d love to see how you get on hefting a target rifle from a standing position and nailing shot after shot. Of course bench rest is the opposite but as said it caters for all physical abilities.

I get that there is a social aspect to it as a pastime. But so does bridge and the WI and we don't spend out on that. But the social aspect can be gained from a sport that promotes mass participation in an activity that is social AND physically healthy. That's where the money should be going.

And the physical side. I'm not entirely naïve on the hefting a gun around side of life. I lugged around an SA80 for enough years professionally to have an idea. But when you have the temerity to rock up to the Olympics (and get a bronze) with this many chins you are going to have to try a bit harder to persuade me there is any necessity to lead a healthy life to get to the top of the sport pastime.

I have serious issues with using this money to fund people’s hobbies

I think I'm taking this out of context a bit but the total amount is how much . How much of a Eurofighter would the entire budget buy or of a piece of motorway ... you get my point, especially as money is actively being printed at the moment, so it's not like this money would be spent on the NHS, old people etc.

Should there be such a focus on the olympics and success - well if you lost everything you won't inspire many people to start. The point about the problems with coaches is valid, and inclusion very much so, but that requires better oversoght, not just slashing the funding.

What went wrong, why did [sport] not do well this time around, what can be done to fix it?

Did we not play a very canny game a few years ago with our funding - identifying sports/events with relatively little interest and funding from other nations where an injection of cash was mostly likely to receive medal reward. I suspect what went wrong might often be that the pickings have got thinner in that specific sport rather than the nation's athletes have personally regressed. I guess you then need to decide if you are going to remain a cynical and go searching (and funding) your new cheap shot elsewhere or throw money at your previous gold mine in hope that it'll make a difference.

@convert, a quick Google image search says he's not the fat knacker you seem to be implying he is. Also an ex-rugby player that got injured out the game and took up shooting instead.

Or are we only considering something as a sport based on the base physical ability of its participants? That sounds nice and inclusive, doesn't it?

Also, an SA80 is nothing like a target rifle and I doubt you would stand in a hold for minutes at a time. Different gun with different use case.

Deleted what I was going to write as molgrips, as ever, has put it far better. And more politely.

I suspect what went wrong might often be that the pickings have got thinner in that specific sport rather than the nation’s athletes have personally regressed

I reckon that's about right. We grabbed some low hanging fruit in the velodrome where it was pretty amateurish before but other teams have now caught up. Loads of records went this year.

Or are we only considering something as a sport based on the base physical ability of its participants? That sounds nice and inclusive, doesn’t it?

🙂 That made me laugh!

The Olympics....inclusive! It is meant to be and always should be a harsh competitive elitist institution. That is its very reason for being. People with different physical attributes will of course rise to the top in different events but its not some sort of inclusive school sports day where everyone gets a lollypop and a pat on the back with new events added so everyone gets their time to shine.

You're the one denigrating legitimate sports as pastimes and hobbies based on your perception of the physical ability required and as such calling into question their worth for funding.

I was arguing that there is a lot more to this than just physical ability and in any case you were wrong on that front as well.

Of course the Olympics are the elite level, nobody has said otherwise.

I don't want to single out Matthew wotsit and it's a shame for him he got injured playing rugby, but the chap evidently isn't currently a posterboy of physical fitness.

Also, an SA80 is nothing like a target rifle and I doubt you would stand in a hold for minutes at a time.

I know that I can't hand stitch for long periods of time because my fingers cramp up, and its blimmin hard to stitch in a straight line. Not sure that really makes the case for sewing as an olympic sport...

Or are we only considering something as a sport based on the base physical ability of its participants? That sounds nice and inclusive, doesn’t it?

Or are we only considering something as a sport based on the base physical ability of its participants? That sounds nice and inclusive, doesn’t it?

Well - yeah!
Sport is generally recognised as system of activities based on physical athleticism or physical dexterity although you could get into long winded arguments about things like darts and games requiring a high degree of mental acuity and tactics etc like Go or chess.

The concept of inclusion doesn't mean "everyone must be able to achieve it".
It'd be nice if everyone had the opportunity to progress to their best level - which is where things like safe accessible facilities, funding, a good support network and so on come in.

But the Olympics should be the pinnacle of sporting elite and excellence, not watered down until it includes anything that could possibly be thought of as "something more than sitting on a couch".

I don't think I am the only one but you are absolutely right that I wholeheartedly disagree that gun sports are in fact sports. They are pastimes like darts, croquet and snooker, just one where a lot of the participants have a bit of an unhealthy fascination with the colour green. Absolutely nothing wrong in being a pastime and as I've said in another thread whilst my days of squeezing the trigger of a gun at human targets are thankfully long over I still have an air rifle and fire a .22 in a range from time to time so feel at least a little qualified to have an opinion on the matter.

Anyway, unnecessary thread diversion so I'll end there as we clearly will never agree on this or persuade the other otherwise.

it doesn’t seem like a ‘sport’ that is worth encouraging more people to get involved with.

Why ever not? As stated one of them must be one of the only events where you were not allowed to practice in this country. Hence we. I gut not be so competitive. The air pistol, rifle and shotgun are all practiced and we are competitive. Let’s see your reaction time on trap and skeet when you don’t know where the clay is coming from. Shooting is also in the modern pentathlon as one of the key cavalry skills lasers not pellets.

Personally, I don’t view surfing and skateboarding as Olympic sports. And karate has made its one appearance.

Btw price per medal should be weighted by colour 5 for a gold 3 for a silver and 1 for a bronze, for example. Our success in cycling was a deliberate calculation on the number of medals available.

Well – yeah!
Sport is generally recognised as system of activities based on physical athleticism or physical dexterity although you could get into long winded arguments about things like darts and games requiring a high degree of mental acuity and tactics etc like Go or chess.

The concept of inclusion doesn’t mean “everyone must be able to achieve it”.
It’d be nice if everyone had the opportunity to progress to their best level – which is where things like safe accessible facilities, funding, a good support network and so on come in.

But the Olympics should be the pinnacle of sporting elite and excellence, not watered down until your gran could get a medal by standing up from her chair without falling over.

You misunderstand.

I'm not advocating moving the goalposts for success, I'm asking what the criteria of a sport should be for participation.

Put it this way, if someone who is old or disabled can do it does that mean it's no longer a sport?

Glad you mentioned physical dexterity, that's shooting in the bag (as far as I'm aware bench rest isn't an Olympic event).

@convert I don't suppose we will convince each other. I admit it can be taken as a pastime, it depends entirely on how much effort you are willing to expend but on that same note you could say the same for many sports, most notably cycling (commuters vs roadies?).

But by funding the portion that excel and providing the facilities for them to do so those below that level get the benefit too, whether that is physical or mental matters not a bit IMO, from bitter experience that mental health benefit shouldn't discounted.

That all aside the green thing is absolutely necessary, have you ever seen how easily a HFT target spooks? 😉

And as for physical appearance, the current gold medal weightlifter in the heaviest category is only 27 stone. Yes you read that correctly. Ok he’s 6’6” tall.

What the data shows is that it’s hard to really pick talent and fund it successfully. The next gold medal shooter may never have shot before since access to a range is challenging. British Cycling have a program of going into schools and testing kids. My friend and out former club coach found a World Champion just that way. If other sports did the same, we’d probably excel in those too.

Shooting is also in the modern pentathlon as one of the key cavalry skills

Don't worry, I'd chuck modern pentathlon out too. Less of a demand for cavalry skills these days. I appreciate it is a significant part of the history of the modern Olympics (Allegedly invented by Coubertain himself) so probably isn't going anywhere

Cycling have a program of going into schools and testing kids. My friend and out former club coach found a World Champion just that way.

Yep, that's how Jo Rowsell got talent spotted.

The Olympics and other sporting competitions do all these things.

To state that so unequivocally presumably you have some really good evidence that that's the case @molgrips ?

I'm all for more facilities but lots of Olympic facilities end up being mothballed/under-used/badly maintained/out of reach etc. I bet we could design better places for normal people if we weren't so hung up on elite sport.

Do I really need to caveat everything with 'in my opinion' grum?

Do you think people would be watching sailing or Tae Kwondo on telly if it weren't for the Olympics? Or MTBing or climbing for that matter? Do you think people would even know what modern pentathlon is? I'm not sure I would. And I sure as hell wouldn't know anything about curling.

I wholeheartedly disagree that gun sports are in fact sports

Who cares? Does it require a great deal of skill and does it make for a good competition? Then it's fine by me. And so what if it is a hobby or pastime? Isn't that what cycling is for most of us? What's wrong with doing a pastime in a club? Seems to me to have lots of benefits and no downsides.

Do I really need to caveat everything with ‘in my opinion’ grum?

Well when you're being quite strident I just would imagine you'd have a good reason to be, not just an un-informed hunch.

I didn't think I was being that strident. But still, I do think that the Olympics raises the profile of many if not most sports. Don't you think?

Who cares? Does it require a great deal of skill and does it make for a good competition? Then it’s fine by me. And so what if it is a hobby or pastime? Isn’t that what cycling is for most of us? What’s wrong with doing a pastime in a club? Seems to me to have lots of benefits and no downsides.

And I'd heartily agree. Pastimes and hobbies are great. Spoke to a lad the other day who is 'into' drystone wall building. Apparently you can take it very seriously and go to drystone wall building competitions. Happy days if that's your bag. But the Olympics is for sports and (to me) shooting is not a sport. But that's a sidetrack......the thread is about GB funding and that's where relatively/very sedate sports/pastimes (call them what you will) appear (to me) to not have the same value in bothering to fund as more active events if one of the main purposes of the funding is to encourage grommets back in the UK to be inspired after watching it to do active stuff in the their day to day lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/netball/58146088

Given the broader societal benefits I'd say netball deserves a place in the Olympics (and GB funding a team) more than shooting ever will.

I know that I can’t hand stitch for long periods of time because my fingers cramp up, and its blimmin hard to stitch in a straight line. Not sure that really makes the case for sewing as an olympic sport…

Absolutely not the same thing. If you'd ever seen a 10m air rifle scorecard you would know how far off you are.

I wonder, how many of the anti-shooting folk would do away with archery?

I think the biggest problem here is peoples lack of understanding of sports coupled with an expectation that results only come from pure physical effort. You're quick to defend road and track cycling as skillful when folk think its just pedalling fast, why is this case different?

Absolutely not the same thing. If you’d ever seen a 10m air rifle scorecard you would know how far off you are.

If you'd ever seen a hand-stitched triple Irish chain quilt you would know I'm not.

See - we can all have opinions.

I wonder if the Olympics was being started from scratch now, which sports would end up in it?

Assuming it wasn't just about who could line the pockets of the IOC.

It was almost entirely absent from the the BBC coverage

BBC weren't the main rights holder, another discussion would be why this was (other then others bidding more) and how strategically the BBC showing everything would link into other national/government strategies to get more people into sports.

Finland have it about right.

I wonder, how many of the anti-shooting folk would do away with archery?

I'd do away with archery in its current format.
Holding a massive bunch of carbon scaffolding complete with sights and taking turns to shoot at a stationary target is dull.

Bring it back to basics. Barebow, moving targets (or moving archer) and run it as a test of both fitness and shooting skill.

Holding a massive bunch of carbon scaffolding complete with sights and taking turns to shoot at a stationary target is dull.

Sitting on a bunch of carbon scaffolding and cycling it in a circle isn't much better. Or running for a long time. Like it or not there are plenty of sports that are mind numbingly dull to watch, I'm not sure that's a great metric of their worth tbh.

Bring it back to basics. Barebow, moving targets (or moving archer) and run it as a test of both fitness and shooting skill.

So more like biathlon then? Sounds fair, I'd watch that, hell, do it on horses as well! Is there an existing event format that does this?

I’d watch that, hell, do it on horses as well! Is there an existing event format that does this?

Horse archery exists but there are only a few practitioners

run it as a test of both fitness and shooting skill.

Just increase the number of arrows and then it tests fitness.

The reality is that some nations take archery very seriously and there are large numbers of professional archers.

there are plenty of sports that are mind numbingly dull to watch, I’m not sure that’s a great metric of their worth tbh.

For a global, televised event? Yeah it’s kind of important 😂 Hence “speed climbing”

What's the breakdown between Govt and Lottery funding?

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-funds-biggest-ever-overseas-team-gb

If the funding comes from Lottery than they can do whatever they wish.

But if the funding comes from taxpayers then I would question if the money is well spent.

Interesting that tennis and golf were self funded which I’m all in favour of. I’m guessing all the top players, coaches and support staff are very well rewarded compared to their peers in other sport.

Still can’t get my head around how equestrian gets £12m for what is an elitist sport.

For a global, televised event?

So a sport is only a sport if it makes for interesting television viewing?

Olympic Bakeoff anyone?