[Closed] Teachers overpaid?

[quote=Junkyard ]In what sense is it not free?
Is it state intervention that keeps the wages artificially high then?
Maybe - in a round-about way. In most jobs there's the threat of being fired or "re-trained" or wages cut - let's say for poor performance. If you create a job where that threat has largely been removed then you remove one of the downward pressures (new blood entering at the bottom of the pay scale). Personally, I think good teachers are worth their weight in gold. I've never understood why the profession is so reticent to consider how best to cope with poor teachers.

[quote=jota180 ]About which bit?
There's an annual media feeding frenzy in Scotland regarding the number of unemployed, but trained teachers that can't get jobs. Maybe it's different in Englandandwales?

have you tired applying say via a trial where they will do this and also pay you

HTH

I would say it is much more free than almost any other industries

Not sure they have any actual entrance requirement/aptitude test or complicated HR personality profiling to see if you "ft in" for example.
No criminal records check, no state regulation of your standards I could go on.

You may need to say what you mean by free market

A free market is a market where the price of a good or service is, in theory, determined by supply and demand, rather than by governmental regulation

Seems to be pretty much what football is tbh.

We could debate overpaid but I would suggest señor Jones knows what I mean and many would agree so lets ignore the pin dance - see I can do subtle too 😉

have you tired applying say via a trial where they will do this and also pay you

I'll give it a go if you think I'm in with a chance, they're not allowed to discriminate because I'm 53 are they?
Looking forward now to having Jose Ferguson as a boss, can't wait, thanks for the tip

JY - you have partially answered your own question.....just add that free markets are unlikely to support business where wages exceeded operating income by a considerable margin.

There's an annual media feeding frenzy in Scotland regarding the number of unemployed, but trained teachers that can't get jobs. Maybe it's different in Englandandwales?

really, I'm suprised. Certainly in secondary schools its tough to find maths and science teachers. Primary is different I believe. Also the percentage of trained teachers still teaching after five years is shockingly low.

The number of places in teacher training in Scotland is dictated by the Scottish Executive and there has been a large imbalance caused by too many people going through the training and financial climate meaning that positions are slimmed down to the minimum - short-term contracts and part-time jobs. That is changing as the places available in teacher training have been slashed over the past couple of years.

No one that's in a job that's open to the market is overpaid, not for any length of time any way

There is never such thing a free / open market as nepotism, old boys networks, social clubs, back scratchings, politics e.t.c exists in pretty much industries and sectors at all levels.

The biggest problem in schools is the parents, jamj 1974. If you did a better job of parenting teachers would be able to teach rather than waste most of their time policing.

^ This...

The reason I no longer teach is because I recognised quite quickly that, without parental understanding and consequent support of modern educational delivery, there would be a mismatch between achievement, attainment and outcome. This expectation that schools should be a surrogate for parenting will at some stage be recognised as a major factor in the decline of modern schooling.

Actually my wife and I spend a significant amount of time supporting our children's education.I can't imagine how you can make judgements about that without knowing me...? Although not overconfident in our parenting skills again we put an awful lot of effort and time into it. Our children are polite, inquisitive generally very well behaved and this is commented on often - they are also mischievous and and an awful lot of fun, so our parenting can not be that bad.

I am simply talking from my own experience, It is what it is. I do think teachers are overpaid - certainly compared to nurses for example. I was simply putting my point as are you. It gets very tiring hearing teachers complain about overwork all the time. Why is it not ok to challenge that as we would with any other profession...?

Teachers could get paid double and it would still be the best value baby sitting service ever.

Unfortunately that's how many parents treat schools. I guess if we want women to get into work and not look after their kids then there are consequences and we are reaping them now.

Jam What a load of bs, what other profession does the general public think they can challenge the work rate and professionalism of the profession. Try and do the same with the gmc and see how far you get.

Did you get the belt a lot as a pupil, you come across as quite hurt.

What a load of bs, what other profession does the general public think they can challenge the work rate and professionalism of the profession.

NHS.

What a load of bs, what other profession does the general public think they can challenge the work rate and professionalism of the profession.

Police.

NHS, no not even close, football, ha very funny not even a profession.

Banking - did I just say that?!?! 😉

NHS, no not even close

Really not in my experience or colleagues and family all working in the NHS.

football, ha very funny not even a profession.

I just don't see it, with NHS or the police.

How many people actively challenge the standard of care or technical ability of a doctor or nurse. Not many considering the size of the organisation.

Other than people complaining when they get a speeding ticket the police are still looked at as professional hard working and dedicated. Obviously you have your Chav class who have an alternative opinion.

Please stop it with the football it's not even funny anymore.

I think the poster who said banking should get a life time ban from every forum for the rest of his natural life, which should be not longer then 15mins .

[quote=stevewhyte ]I just don't see it, with NHS or the police.
How many people actively challenge the standard of care or technical ability of a doctor or nurse.
[img] [/img]

I just don't see it, with NHS or the police.

Really are you new here, give it a few weeks there's an NHS slagging thread due again soon.

How many people actively challenge the standard of care or technical ability of a doctor or nurse. Not many considering the size of the organisation.

Lots, I deal with complaints at work and it's far too regular for such little things.

Please stop it with the football it's not even funny anymore.

So you are in the NHS and I am in education. Lols I guess we will just have to see it differently.

Druidh your just so funny. Seriously are you a clown?

I just don't see it, with NHS or the police.

'I am in education'

'Druidh your just so funny'

🙂

stevewhyte - Member

Druidh your just so funny. Seriously are you a clown?

I hope you don't teach English.

I see teachers being mocked regular yes, do I think many of the allegations are true? No I don't, they work hard I've friends who are teachers they do long hours and I've a school behind me I see when the teachers leave and start. Just because you don't see it happen in the NHS doesn't mean it doesn't happen trust me it does. We have to put up with face to face on a regular bases, receive formal complains from disgruntled clients and then there's the posts on places like this.

I personally think it's all part of working in the public sector, some of the public seem to think they have the right to abuse you and your job.

[quote=Drac ]
I personally think it's all part of working [s]in the public sector[/s], some of the public seem to think they have the right to abuse you and your job.
FTFY.

Possibly Druid but you don't see many threads on here calling all electricians or bike shop owners lazy gits who we pay their wages don't you know.

Shall we count back the number of "I was ripped off by...." threads? Or those complaining about the various delivery services (Public AND Private)?

But we do see plenty of "I'll never buy from Business X again" threads, don't we? That's because we have the ability to choose and change supplier. That's one of the main differences.
I don't and never will use Barclays because of the way they work.

True but that's not the same really that's saying you'll not use a service because of a policy or an experience. Not saying that all the workers in every bank are lazy and overpaid.

Is that the best you can do druidh, I hear better chat in the playground on a daily basis.

drac
I'm in no way saying that nurses et al doing get their fair share but especially in the media it seems teachers are fair game. It all comes round in circles mind. Maybe it's firemen who are up next.

I have obviously touched a raw nerve here and some people seem offended. This was not my intention - neither was I trolling. I am simply stating a summary of my experience. I was also not slating anyone for their position unlike a few
very direct responses to my post... Insulting my children by describing them as 'spawn' is not really on.

I was capable enough to make a reasonable success of my education. Through my own motivation, ability and support from my parents I actually managed to achieve fairly high results in my academic qualifications. This was also due in part to the four teachers I mentioned who were inspirational and made learning with them a very rewarding experience. So much in fact they inspire me today in the way I work and interact with my own 'spawn'.

You could not be expected to know that we spend a huge amount of time supporting our children with their learning by working with them on homework and expanding their opportunities for gaining skills, knowledge and experience. We have also been thanked for our support by class teachers as they have benefitted from our efforts and our children are recognised as some of the most curious and engaged in their respective classes.

You also would be unable to have awareness of our abilities at parenting. Whilst we are not over-confident in our ability we are pleased that our children are generally polite, well behaved and sociable individuals that interact well with their peers and adults. They are fun, interesting and have a zest for life which is tremendous. They most certainly are not disruptive or overly demanding, which probably suggests we are ok parents.

Probably also worth mentioning that we support our school with assistance on trips, taking part in school assemblies, charity and social events as we believe schools are integral to our community and need our support. We do not treat schooling or education as a 9am - 3pm childminding service, nor as something that is 'done' to our children, hence why we probably have concerns...

For those who have been turned off education by negative, disengaged parents and poor levels of respect due to you I am truly sorry. If you make a huge commitment which is not valued it is tough.

My point is that teachers are not overpaid and many I have encountered seem to lack effectiveness and insight. Some even find it hard to communicate meaningfully with adults on a one-to-one basis and this obviously worries you as a parent. Teaching is not sacrosanct as a profession, teachers like doctors, nurses etcetera cannot be beyond criticism or above reproach, which many of your responses could be interpreted as suggesting. I work in the corporate sector where many are incompetent and/or overpaid. Teaching is no different. I also fail to take it personally when it is criticised - something some of you could take as good advice.

I'm in no way saying that nurses et al doing get their fair share but especially in the media it seems teachers are fair game. It all comes round in circles mind.

Perspective there I reckon, you see I notice the NHS being abused by the media you notice the teachers.

Maybe it's firemen who are up next.

No comment.

Glad to hear you get involved jam. Sorry to hear you think spawn is offensive and insulting. There were no quote marks round the original and the word is used in proper context.

It seems a tad naive it take a swipe at a group of people and not expect a robust rebuttal. Try the same with 29er riders or Audi drivers. 🙂

Sorry not hurt - corporal punishment was gone by the time I started my formal education. Somewhat boringly I was also pretty well behaved at school... If anything I feel let down by the educational system and think a huge part of the problem is cultural - both inside and outside of schools.

By the way I have also complained to the GMC and got a successful outcome. My wife and I also raised serious concerns with the delivery of our sons and changes were made to practice by midwives as a result. They key with both of these was to identify where they had contravened their own policy and highlight it. We also the my ad the opportunity to suggest what would have prevented the problems. Both the GMC and the hospital paid attention, confirmed actions and let us know when they would be complete.

I don't for a moment think your position is invalid - it is your experience. Please stop calling mine be and insulting my family because it doesn't match yours. Surely we can agree that both could be valid? Through the information provided on this forum I have no evidence you are a poorly performing professional - you are obviously very passionate about your profession - hopefully that means you are one of the committed and inspirational professionals...

Again no profession deserves being beyond criticism. They should all be accountable surely?

Steve, I am afraid I ride a 29'er and drive an Audi... No BS! I also have a skill compensator and like riding trail centres as well as natural trails. I also have been known to ride the occasional cheeky trail and write in a style best described as 'stream of consciousness'. This does not always work well...

The topic has caught me at an unfortunate point where the school has made a very significant decision without any consultation or effective communication. Maybe my perspective is a little jaded right now?

There are good teachers and there are free loaders ...

Put it this way if you pay nearly £4K per term to attend the school and the teachers (few of them) are not up to scratch (no, the kids are really good kids who really want to learn), then the school really needs to get rid of those lazy no good maggots. I mean the class size is only 15 and the teachers cannot even deliver a coherent lesson ... Jesus (in Spanish) ... they should simply get out of the profession to lessen the damage to the future generation. Go somewhere else where the damage is minimum ...

On the other hand good teachers are themselves worth their weight in gold. These are the teachers who are patience and with very good knowledge of the subject(s) they teach. In my view these teachers should be paid or rewarded handsomely i.e. 50% more at least, and should be well look after by not destroying their motivation to teach.

Not everyone can be a good teacher and some are just there because they have the qualifications but the heart is not there.

However, parents are to be blamed too at times ...

Maggots! You find them everywhere. 🙄

longest post ever

So the complaints from teachers appears to be that they are underpaid (more so every year in real terms), don't get bonuses, pensions are getting cut and they work long hours.

I don't see many stating its a job pretty much for life, regardless of ability (and from personal and anecdotal evidence from teacher mates/family there appear to be some shite teachers around). No mention of the 16 odd weeks holiday I notice either.

A better question would be how many of the underpaid teachers would be on significaly higher wages in the Private Sector. I know a number friends who work as teachers, some good, some i would actively intervene if my child was going to be tought by them. None were remarkable at uni (one never went to uni) and fell into teaching as a job because they werent accepted on any other graduate scheme. I went into private services having obtained better grades, busted my balls and am on a very similar salary to lots of them. Only difference i might get a 4k bonus if things go well, but more than likely i'll be made redundant shortly after. Oh and yeah my pension sucks as well.

So to summarise, some teachers (the bad ones) are over paid whilst the good ones may be getting slightly underpaid for their worth. (Althouth my mates a head of maths, hes obviously doing well and gets paid 50k plus, the same as a senior manager at the place I work so not a tippence), If they want bonuses they should accept the performance management that goes with that culture, and on the flip side the far far higher number of redundencies due to letting the poor performers go.

You could obviously also try to find a different vocation with the fantastic skills you have, good luck finding one paying as much...

edit - Lets not compare the salaries of a teacher with those at the top of banks, lawfirms, the medical professions etc. Lets compare them with the junior and middle management level roles in the private sector as that is undoubtably where the vast majority would be.

How "undoubtedly"?

Massively distorted - businesses (sic) being kept alive that under most normal circumstances would have gone bust => highly uncompetitive market, oligopolies (loosely defined) etc.
But a masterpiece in devising a system that transfers money from (largely) low income segments of the population to a very small subsegment and, in the wonderful multicultural society that we are, to people from multiple countries and races....which in most normal circumstances would lead to uproar. But since its such a national treasure the absurdity is allowed to continue. Pity that so many people are drawn in by it all.
But at least there is freedom of choice if not a free market!

On the pay issue, it's true it's a free market. The best teachers soon realise that they could earn a lot more with less stress and no threat of violence doing something else, and leave the profession. Would I have been able to stop working at 42 if I'd continued to teach in the UK? No way. Would I have been physically aggressed and had my car burnt out on the car park? Possibly/probably, it happened.

For many teachers it's a vocation like being a doctor should be, and pay isn't the issue. For others it's a life style and financial choice. Many teachers of my generation ended up in the job because the training was free (profitable if your PGCE included maths or science) and the starting pay was quite attractive. A few years of teaching on the CV and simply being older opened up a host of better paid jobs, and the best teachers left. They didn't just go to better paid jobs, a dynamic teaching couple I knew left to start a climbing equipment business.

I would argue that UK teachers weren't/aren't paid enough because the best of them left the profession years ago.

In France I've noted that a good number of teachers enter the profession having already made it in life and wanting a second lower-key career. My wife's colleagues include a fighter pilot, an engineer, a civil servant, an aerobics teacher, a business woman; the best, by choice. But then in France the rest of the population doesn't spend at least half an hour of any social evening slagging off teachers.

So anyway does anyone know how pay compares in private schools. I have friends who have summed it up as "more pay, less shit" and the pension provision is often the same. So are we overpaid? Given shortages in my subject and others I'd suggest no but comparison with the all knowing private sector seems the only way to find out.

I only consider professions to be divinity, medicine and law, anything else is simply labelling themselves a profession to gain greater credibility.

Well then, that's why Finland is at the top - if your logic is applied to state education in the UK. (In Finland, from what I gather, teachers are all post-grad before entry into the profession, have a 1:1 non-contact to teaching ration and are held in high esteem.)

"more pay, less shit"

I'd say more pay (circa 10%), different shit. I don't get abused half as much as a I used to but the pressure for performance is slightly higher and the days are a lot longer. 6 Day week, probably half a dozen Sundays a year too. On average I reckon I am on site around 15-20hrs a week more now than when in the maintained sector (but I bring little home now whilst I used to before - simply because in term time now I'm mainly at home only to eat and sleep during the week). But then I get 4 weeks more holiday - swings and roundabouts.

So longer hours but more holidays and 10% more pay so it would seem we are underpaid? Can we close the thread now please.

Just for the record, as far as I'm concerned I don't have an issue with the salaries received by teachers. I did a good number of jobs prior to becoming one, some good and so not so, and I personally think teachers get a relatively fair deal.

My issue is with the teacher-bashing. Try the job, see how challenging it can be, and then comment. There is a fundamental lack of understanding by parents as to the complexity of the role, and the constant 'shifting sands' that come with it through policy change.

Being an Education Advisor is far more beneficial to my health...! 😉

So longer hours but more holidays and 10% more pay so it would seem we are underpaid?

I'd say in relation to the private school system, the maintained sector pay is verging on about right to slightly underpaid. It was my experience that in the maintained sector there were plenty of folks "burning out" because of the stress - here there about the same number burning out but because they can't handle the hours any more and keep their marriage/family life going. The divorce rate is amazing!

Overall though - taking into account the leave periods, the pension and the salary as a total package it's a fair deal.

Pay £ Pay £

Dont you go into teaching as a calling? A passion to nurture and develop young minds?

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

6th? Is that all?

But then in France the rest of the population doesn't spend at least half an hour of any social evening slagging off teachers.

Such a Utopia France must be
You seem to spend a good bit of your social time time slagging off the UK and telling us all how this, that of the other is so much better in France.

Dont you go into teaching as a calling? A passion to nurture and develop young minds?

Again no profession deserves being beyond criticism. They should all be accountable surely?

No one suggested they should but generalisation of everyone in a profession because of one person, place or incident is.

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

Well that'll be because that's what Unions are there for the employee not the service provided. Although they do fight to keep a service if it supports the workers.

It's very therapeutic, Jota, especially when it's raining.

16 odd weeks holiday

Really? just 25% out, but hey some of your best friends are teacher etc...As to money, I had my own shopfitting firm,it was only last year when I was promoted,that I started earning more than I made 10 years ago plastering Boots stores.

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

Overall though - taking into account the leave periods, the pension and the salary as a total package it's a fair deal.

Do we factor in expensive holidays for life? That's effectively a pay reduction.

Also, I couldn't do my job without a room at home to work in. That ups my house price.

Don't know about the holidays - do we also factor in the teacher training days?

http://www.oldham-chronicle.co.uk/news-features/8/news/74990/teachers-on-staff-training-dash-to-wedding-party

Don't know about the holidays - do we also factor in the teacher training days?

"Staff were given that hour and a half of staff development time to research things for our golden jubilee celebrations."

"They could do that research on or off site, and whenever they liked. Some decided to do it straight away, and others decided to do it after the wedding. It was all agreed with the school governors and is all above board."

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence 🙄

and from personal and anecdotal evidence from teacher mates/family there appear to be some shite teachers around

The problem is parents only care about their child [ obvious why] and want the best for them. The more pushy a parent is the more they notice it is a [largely] one size fits all delivery model and their little precious wont be the focus of all the teachers attention. Some relaise this and are ok and some think this means the teacher is bad. There are of course some teachers who are just shit but I would not take a parents word for it as they oftenknow little about educationand are some way from objective.
It is fiar toi say bad teachers are not managed our the profession though but I would assume this is an issue in may workplaces not just teaching.

I only consider professions to be divinity, medicine and law, anything else is simply labelling themselves a profession to gain greater credibility

The primary focus from you and your unions seems to be pay and conditions NOT standards.

Yes, it simply coincided with the wedding, pure coincidence

No one is suggesting it wasn't planned.

I have tomorrow and Friday off for "training days", but the training was done over five evenings after work, so I'm riding my bike instead.

I also get one extra day off per year for report writing, but don't write reports on that day. In fact, there isn't one specific day which is that day off.

Similarly, I use some of my weekends and holidays for work though I'm not required to.

Hora you are an idiot.

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that's when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/liverpool-wirral-supply-teaching-agency-944728902?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/guaranteed-supply-teaching-944748858?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-4-primary-teaching-job-944745097?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/birmingham-primary-teaching-job-year-6-944724457?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/newly-qualified-primary-teachers-required-944767374?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/early-years-teacher-nursery-944736502?src=search

http://www.jobsite.co.uk/job/year-7-teacher-primary-experience-required-944749137?src=search

Hora you are an idiot.

You don't have to be a qualified teacher to know that! 😀

Just joshing Mark 😉

Expensive holidays for life is a pay reduction????

Perhaps the holiday periods are expensive because that's when the vast majority of workers can only go on holiday? ie have kids or works shut downs?

😉

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

/thread

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

When you move to the private sector 🙂

I think we should negotiate on a per student basis. They get 10% more for half the kids...

Convert how do that contact hours compare?

😆 I think our contracts are probably a bit iffy. There are no contract hours/ annual hours in there. There is a specific percentage of a full teaching load you are expected to do (with the number of lessons that is expected of a FT teacher in the handbook); a list of other duties that are expected; and then the rest is covered by a lovely catch all "whatever extras as deemed necessary by the headteacher" It's fair to say the headteacher expects his pound of flesh! When we added another week to the academic year a couple of years ago there was a right old load of consultation (quite rightly) necessary for support staff for the change in their T&Cs. Teacher representatives asked if we would also be consulted and were politely pointed to their contracts and told to go swivel.

Can we not just go with the "how does it compare to the private sector" method? When do I get my 10% rise?

You can have my rise for this year aa - 0.8% [if we hit our targets]

That's how our contracts work too.

There's a notional number of hours per year which are directed time, but there's no real agreement as to what constitutes directed time.

We work on a 23.5 hour per week teaching timetable and we're expected to be in the building on 195 days of the year.

I was meaning how many lessons a week I teach 26 fifty min a week.

Number of lessons is not bad really:-

36 X 35min subject lessons a week (less if you have a responsibility)

There is also a compulsory:-

3hr per week of contact time with tutees
2hrs of sports teaching per week (I actually quite like this bit)
running 2 early evening activities (5.30pm-6.30pm)
running 2 late activities (7.30pm-9pm)
2 X being on a boarding house (9pm-11pm)
2hrs of staff meetings per week
2 assemblies per week (about 7-8pm depending on day)

There is the occasional stuff too - week day duties, weekend duties, departmental all-in weekends, whole school all-in weekends.

You also have to compulsorily go on one school trip in the school holidays - normally about a week. Could see that as a nause or a cheap holiday depending on your outlook. The other difference is training days/prep days/entrance exam days at the beginnings of the terms happen in the holidays which chips away about another week and a half.

As I said before the it's swings and roundabouts - the day to day pace is slower but the day is longer. A bit like running a marathon rather than sprinting the 100m.

RichPenny - Member
Hora you are an idiot.

You obviously fell down the education tree.

Can you name a profession that does not have some sh*te people doing it?

Nope, but I also can't think of many jobs that you can so easily get away with being incompetent. The number of teachers sacked for being no good every year is tiny. (Thats not to say I think the vast majority are incompetent btw!)

Poor teachers are overpaid
Good teachers are paid correct salary
Fantastic teachers are underpaid

^^^
I agree with this absolutely

The thing I just don't understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I'd say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

The thing I just don't understand is why teachers in general appear to think they get a rough deal. I'd say the pay and benefits are just as attractive as private sector roles requiring similar hours/pressures/intelectual and educational entry requirements.

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Despite us getting around 10% less than private school teachers? Who get the same pension, may do more hours a week but get longer holidays!

Is the role identical? If so then surely if you wanted 10% extra pay youd be working in a private school. If not identical, do private school teachers have to do something else to earn 10% more?