I think not. 6th best education system - not bad considering our place in the world and no thanks to the Tories. We'll start to reap the rewards for this in 10 years time when Late 90's to Mid 2000's lot start innovating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-
The success of Asian countries in these rankings reflects the high value attached to education and the expectations of parents. This can continue to be a factor when families migrate to other countries, says the report accompanying the rankings.
That's exactly what I said in the last overpaid teachers thread when certain individuals were blaming teachers not parents for worsening standards.
Whoever taught you how to put links in posts clearly was 😉
It all falls apart here:
The rankings combine international test results and data such as graduation rates between 2006 and 2010.
So the more people who graduate, the better the edjukation sistem. *
* dont go marking me down for bad speeling it is meen.
EDITED to remove the apostrophe, I dont want to seem like I learned proper english.
Great stuff, now following the private sector model I should be looking forward to some per prance related pay, and a bonus this Christmas.
Oh wit a moment, no it will be yet another year, the 5th in a row where pay has fallen in real terms. Just the way to attract smart new graduates into the profession. Oh how I laugh as they continue to choose accountancy, law, medicine et al!!
Our 6th place will be 10th next time this report is published and will fall more.
Oh wit a moment, no it will be yet another year, the 5th in a row where pay has fallen in real terms.
Pretty much the same for most people I know TBH public or private sector.
Suppose we were due another private sector Vs public sector argument.
yep, five years and counting where i used to work-- 20% cut effectively, put me on same remuneration as state benefits, without hot dinners for the kids 😡
[i]Suppose we were due another private sector Vs public sector argument. [/i]
Coppers are overpaid too:-)
is that the same country that is replacing or rebuilding every school in the country.. no cant be surely.. tories what have they ever done for us after they were democractically elected..
And lets not forget the next pension raid planed for 2014/15. Oh, and despite offering to discuss terms with the unions to halt last years industrial action, the Government has yet to agree even a date for these discussions to take place,yet in the meantime announcing various other cuts;no chartered,probationer hours increased,length of service increased. All while increasing the workload by introducing half-baked new qualifications that we are supposed to iron out for them.
is that the same country that is replacing or rebuilding every school in the country.. no cant be surely..
You are right,it isn't; they are being built by private equity firms. Only link the present Government have is that some Tory MP's will be directors of them.
What's that got to do with salary?
Average teacher salary for Scotland & England: 40846.17 USD (ranked 6th in Table)
Average teacher salary for Finland: 37925.44 USD (ranked 1st in Table)
😉
Our school has been told that we will not be getting a new school, or any major renovations.this is despite sroutine repairs being halted for 6 years in our Victorian build school because we would get a new build. So no, they aren't all getting rebuilt.
Suppose we were due another private sector Vs public sector argument.
I've never understood these arguments as I'm sure there are lazy or greedy people in both sectors, folks that work extremely hard in both sectors too and people who are out for themselves.
Never trust any league table, or anyone who produces it.
That said, it is nice to see teaching getting some positive headlines for once.
Bwaarp. This is very early for what is little more than a troll. The article suggests that the reasons behind their definition of performance are multi-faceted and few if any overall conclusions can be drawn re pay, structure, or level of independence. Let's hope that Pearson (did you note the authors...not exactly igrf slagging off his potential customers on STW are they) publish more informative text books. Their paper generally has better quality fortunately ( based on the article).
Steve - are you a dance teacher then? Never heard of prance related pay? 😉
Edit: agree that teachers are not overpaid BTW. I wonder why the Beeb have decided to demote the importance of the article this morning below the report that Ofsted is about to report a widening standards gap or that a (RW) broadsheet prefers to report St Andrews Uni's attack on misguided entry policies?
"The rankings show that there is no clear link between higher relative pay and higher performance."
Schools dont need rebuilding .Some of the best private schools in the country are housed in some very old buildings and their results seem ok 😆
Steve, not all private sector bonus's are what you think they are. I shall be taking home about 85% of my salary/job's role average pay this year, will you? Oh, and my pension will be outperformed by yours, massively so.
However my view is, pay good teachers as much as we can can. They are educating my kids and our future generation, I'd like the Teachers doing so to be incentivised to do that to the best of thier ability, and with my gratitude.
Let's hope that Pearson (did you note the authors...not exactly igrf slagging off his potential customers on STW are they) publish more informative text books.
Pearson also own Edexcel, one of the biggest exam boards.
How does private sector teachers pay compare? I was shocked to find out that private teachers can get the same pension.
Oh heck, a mixed portfolio then! Still the point stands even more - their target market audience is?
A_A, that second sentence is a gem in so many ways!
CaptJon - Member
Never trust any league table, or anyone who produces it.
That said, it is nice to see teaching getting some positive headlines for once.
In this case , a London based education business has applied a few select bodge factors to the internationally recognised PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) educational assessments, and managed to bump up their home market to 6th in their own new table that ignores the PISA winners. And the BBC reports it as glorious news.
You couldn't make it up (unless, of course, you work for the BBC/Pearson PLC.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_Student_Assessment
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17585201
Well what do expect of a ranking produced by Pearson education (about as nonobjective and biased as you'll find) that doesn't even include the best country, China.
Something a little more objective from the [url= http://ourtimes.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/oecd-education-rankings/ ]OECD[/url]
At least with modern history teaching, loum, students will immediately know how to treat sources appropriately!
I like the Telegraph coverage of a study that found that a good teacher can add half a GCSE grade to a student. Their headline changed from "Good teachers add half a GCSE grade" to "Bad teachers lose half a GCSE grade" over the course of the day 🙂
We'll start to reap the rewards for this in 10 years time when Late 90's to Mid 2000's lot start innovating.
😆
Pull your head out the clouds son.
I work with teachers every week and I'm just glad I don't have children.
How does private sector teachers pay compare? I was shocked to find out that private teachers can get the same pension.
How would a private sector teacher get a state teacher pension?
Oh wit a moment, no it will be yet another year, the 5th in a row where pay has fallen in real terms.
As others have said, no different for Private sector.
*Other jobs are available...
I'd like the Teachers doing so to be incentivised to do that to the best of thier ability, and with my gratitude.
Thats a great idea,and one as a teacher I would love to see...But it has been mothballed as the number of teacher hitting targets for "Accredited Teacher Status" would cost them more than they were willing to pay....After they shut the chartered teaching scheme because it was....ach; you get the picture.
We have an agreement that we will undertake a certain amount of work over and above our agreed hours.This can be developing courses, running teams,study support,school trips etc. When the Scottish Government looked to define what they would use as the benchmark for Accreditation...they found over 95% of teachers would fall into the bracket for enhanced salary. And of the 5% who wouldn't, two thirds of them were within 10years of retirement.(source EIS)But yes,we are overpaid 🙄
At least with modern history teaching, loum, students will immediately know how to treat sources appropriately!
Agreed, it's not all bad.
It's just a shame that the science courses don't seem to include this skill. 😉
Well what do expect of a ranking produced by Pearson education (about as nonobjective and biased as you'll find) that doesn't even include the best country, China.Something a little more objective from the OECD
Just took a look at the OECD rankings....wow, that's pretty bad even for the beeb.
It seems that some of the UN HID scores and TIMSS scores are better than the ranks given by the OECD though.
I assume you mean the UN HDI index in which Britain ranks 28th. TIMSS is a bit limited and doesn't even include France.
is that the same country that is replacing or rebuilding every school in the country.. no cant be surely.. tories what have they ever done for us after they were democractically elected..
What country is replacing or rebuilding every school?
last I heard was
Gove cancelled Labour's £55bn school building programme, suspending projects for 715 new schools as part of the coalition's latest tranche of spending cuts
When did the Tories get democratically elected ? Last time I counted they did not have a majority and we had a coalition govt
I assume you mean the UN HDI index in which Britain ranks 28th. TIMSS is a bit limited and doesn't even include France.
Where can I find the specific education index ranking not the overall human development? Can't find it, I've read a few articles that seem to state we are much higher up the ranking in terms of education than 28th on the HDI education index.
in one of the very poor parts of rochdale today.. standing out is the brand new primary school.. looks excellent loads of play gear big fences etc etc//
HUGE carpark.. one porche 911, a merc, a big chelsea tractor thing and more minis than a mary quant fashion show. clearly thier owners are doing okay.. fell for the others one of whom was making do with a bicycle.
in one of the very poor parts of rochdale today.. standing out is the brand new primary school.. looks excellent loads of play gear big fences etc etc//
HUGE carpark.. one porche 911, a merc, a big chelsea tractor thing and more minis than a mary quant fashion show. clearly thier owners are doing okay.. felt for the others one of whom was making do with a bicycle.
I guess the owner can at least spell Porsche. Might be why he/she is driving one.
As for performance related pay, just how would you benchmark this?
Most teachers I work with go above and beyond and would earn significantly more if liked to performance.
Besides its not about big pay rises, just keeping up with inflation, that includes them robbing our pensions.
sbob - Member
I work with teachers every week and I'm just glad I don't have children.
Generalising much? 🙄
That HDI education index is based on literacy and enrollment rate. Given the number of countries that have a 99% or higher literacy rate it's really just an indicator of the number of people in education. Which is, IMO, no measure of how well educated the population is. The OECD table is at least based on testing the population.
The high number of Brits in higher education is mainly down to a government policy aimed at taking young people out the unemployment statistics if I'm being really cynical.
HUGE carpark.. one porche 911, a merc, a big chelsea tractor thing and more minis than a mary quant fashion show
All available relatively cheap second hand or affordable if their partner is on a good wage too.
HUGE carpark.. one porche 911, a merc, a big chelsea tractor thing and more minis than a mary quant fashion show. clearly thier owners are doing okay
Our school car park is the same but most of those cars are members of the public going to the sports centre.
In answer to the questions raised on last page, robbed from a TES forum:
The Hutton report ( http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/hutton_final_100311.pdf) mentions independent schools along with other teaching and non-teaching bodies in the private sector which can join the public sector pension schemes. The conclusion about this (around p119 of the report) says that it is in principle undesirable for future non public sector workers to have access to public sector schemes, but acknowledges that this is a difficult area for the Govt (aren't they all??). So it would seem that existing members may be OK but future ones not, but of course the whole report is as yet unimplemented so goodness knows what will happen
Madame is a teacher and could buy any of those cars new with cash lying idle in the bank. I'm more idle than my cash, too idle to go out to work or even go out and buy a new car when the 20-year-old one is fine.
Cars are a very poor indicator of wealth in France. Jean Jacques Goldman à vélo (sorry the pic failed)
he drives/drove a Renault Scénic.
Madame is a teacher and could buy any of those cars new with cash lying idle in the bank. I'm more idle than my cash, too idle to go out to work or even go out and buy a new car when the 20-year-old one is fine.
What are you trying to say, Edu?
That Brits judge people's wealth by their cars which is no indicator at all. I knew a couple with a new Ferrari (his) and AMG Merc (hers). Both really belonged to the credit company, like the house and pretty much every other conspicuous sign of wealth they "owned" but didn't.
ditto the above, typical willy waving / green envy that unfortunately was to blame for getting us into this credit crunch mess
That Brits judge people's wealth by their cars which is no indicator at all.
Does this still happen? I prefer the older, and less cultured, way of telling everyone I have huge wads of cash in the bank and no mortgage. It's a little crude, but quite effective.
Cheers to all the teachers reading the thread. I'd be a lesser man without the influence of a good number of your colleagues.
Me too, David. You noticed. 8)
Yes!
It's a little crude, but quite effective.
So many punchlines 😉
No.
Interesting choice that some make between buying a flash (?) car versus investing in a child's education! So I guess on Porsche 911 costs the same as 3-4 years at a top school. One investment depreciates rapidly, the other appreciates over a life time. Pretty easy choice.........?
It would be interesting if the OECD did tables of the educational rank for the richest and poorest people in each country if what you say is true, THM.
Teachers are overpaid for sure. In most professions (Other than law, medicine, politics and banking.) you get paid for your capabilities and the scarcity of that in the marketplace. Teaching in our educational system does not require high levels of intelligence or capability unfortunately. Professional teachers get overpaid for letting the majority of children down by failing to make the most of children's abilities... Don't start about the hours either - low capability usually means that tasks take longer...
Despite my children attending an outstanding school according to Ofsted (Due to a narrow focus and lots of pre-inspection efforts from themselves, their families and even colleagues from other schools!) they have only one teacher who really is amazing. The remaining management and staff of the school leave a lot to be desired and true leadership is absent. For example the head teacher had two minor and simple to address recommendations from Ofsted and has not even bothered to address these.
If teachers deserved their pay perhaps I would have had more than four outstanding teachers in my own thirteen years of school experience and those I 'know' socially would not be a mix of people who are not the most intelligent, are unable to lead, govern and evolve their institutions and also not proudly abuse school facilities and resource to sort themselves out!
Apologies for the negativity but I am afraid my experiences both past and present are largely poor.
Well conclusive evidence, makes me wonder why science teachers are so hard to find then.
I not sure I understand your last post Edukator - I get the different ranking idea but not sure how you are relating that to my previous post?
Teaching in our educational system does not require high levels of intelligence or capability unfortunately.
Given how easy it is, one wonders , why so many you met, were so bad.
the head teacher had two minor and simple to address recommendations from Ofsted and has not even bothered to address these
leading to an immeasurable improvement in the performance of the school and staff no doubt.
odd that the experts think it is outstanding and you dont.
The very best providers have been judged to have outstanding overall effectiveness. These are the providers whose work with children, young people and adult learners have been found to be of outstanding quality.
anyway pfft what would they know eh
No. If you disagree try it yourself.
Teachers are overpaid for sure. In most professions (Other than law, medicine, politics and banking.) you get paid for your capabilities and the scarcity of that in the marketplace. Teaching in our educational system does not require high levels of intelligence or capability unfortunately.
You should do it, then, it sounds like a piece of piss.
The biggest problem in schools is the parents, jamj 1974. If you did a better job of parenting teachers would be able to teach rather than waste most of their time policing.
Generalising much?
That depends on how small the sample base needs to be to fit in with your definition.
Of course, this could be skewed by the geography of the sample in relation to that of mine.
🙂
No one that's in a job that's open to the market is overpaid, not for any length of time any way
anyway pfft what would they know eh
I actually know someone who used to work for OFSTED and left because she said it wasn't fit for purpose.
This person now takes over under-performing schools and turns them around in a very short space of time.
She's also glad her kids don't have to endure the current education system!
I'm glad I don't have to endure today's kids.
I was going to disagree that teachers were overpaid, but now that I've heard [i]actual[/i] anecdotal evidence on this thread, I think they must be.
No one that's in a job that's open to the market is overpaid, not for any length of time any way
Teaching is open to the market: every teacher chose to teach instead of any other job they could have chosen. If the best aren't choosing teaching, perhaps we have to ask why they're choosing other careers? Especially if, as has been said above, teaching's a piece of piss with a huge salary and a massive pension.
For some reason, most of the people I was at uni with got jobs are software engineers, bankers, management consultants and accountants.
If the best aren't choosing teaching, perhaps we have to ask why they're choosing other careers?
Love science, hate kids.
No one that's in a job that's open to the market is overpaid, not for any length of time any way
Every time I watch a football player roll on the floor in feigned agony I think oh look there is someone in the free market who is not overpaid.
If they were overpaid, there would be big queues to get in, I don't believe that's the case.
Every time I watch a football player roll on the floor in feigned agony I think oh look there is someone in the free market who is not overpaid.
Not a free market
jamj1974 -Apologies for the negativity but I am afraid my experiences both past and present are largely poor.
It funny, I often find that pupils get the teacher they deserve. What does that say about you and your spawn. Might be worth thinking about.
Try again, 3 out of 10 for trolling.
Not a free market
And not overpaid.
In what sense is it not free?
Is it state intervention that keeps the wages artificially high then?
In what sense is it not free?
If it was free I'd be able to get some training and have a good chance of securing a job as a footballer
Massively distorted - businesses (sic) being kept alive that under most normal circumstances would have gone bust => highly uncompetitive market, oligopolies (loosely defined) etc.
But a masterpiece in devising a system that transfers money from (largely) low income segments of the population to a very small subsegment and, in the wonderful multicultural society that we are, to people from multiple countries and races....which in most normal circumstances would lead to uproar. But since its such a national treasure the absurdity is allowed to continue. Pity that so many people are drawn in by it all.
But at least there is freedom of choice if not a free market!
If it was free I'd be able to get some training and have a good chance of securing a job as a footballer
You did at school, oh hang on!
[quote=jota180 ]If they were overpaid, there would be big queues to get in, I don't believe that's the case.
You're joking - right?
About which bit?