[Closed] Teachers hours

My daughter would disagree with these statements as it is her job to teach a bunch of 5yr olds from an area full of "disadvantaged" people. This week she not only has to prep lessons and teach but the school is preparing for their Offstead inspection and she has to attend 4 after school staff meetings! At the start of term all teachers were asked(demanded) by the head teacher what they were going to do extra for the school/local community after hours in their own time!!! Getting home to look after their own families/children is not considered important.......
When dealing with parents there is always another member or two hovering in the near vicinity, police patrol to roadways at school start and finish times and have been called in during breaks! She has been threatened by parents, spat at, sworn at and had toys and furniture thrown at her. She is only in her 2nd yr of teaching but spends more time working with social work, special needs and health specialist than teaching and will probably be burnt out within a couple of years if she does not give up beforehand for the sake of her own health...She loves the job btw and shares the view that the duff teachers should be binned asap.
Having got into teaching via doing an arts degree to MA level she was disgusted at the quality of lecturing at the teaching Uni, the poor/lack of mentoring and some of the practices she encountered during her placements. There may be lots of poor teachers(young and old) coming out of the teaching Unis but that is probably down to the quality of lecturing as much as the quality of the student.

Someone I know with 15 years experience of working in an EBD school would disagree with you.

Good post trekster, so many people have 'opinions' that really aren't theirs, just cliche induced reactions.

Thinking back to my school days(long ago)- i was a naughty boy, but the teachers that i remember are the ones who engaged with you, the others were just dismissive, distant, just doing a job, -- not their fault, many people 'find' themselves in jobs they are not suited to--

Oh yeah that's right, let's leave personal responsibility aside. It's not that you were a delinquent....poor old you wasn't given enough attention by the teachers.

but for some of them school really is a place of calm in their existence.

Definately, this is why some EBD schools are now finding it much harder to educate their pupils as many of them are having to reduce the amount of bording students they take on. This means instead of just regressing after the summer holidays after spending 6 weeks with moronic parents, they regress every time they go back home.

On the topic of middle class parents - again they always have the attitude of it's the teachers fault....nothing to do with me that Johnny won't listen in class and spends the day shouting abuse at the teacher...no poor little Johnny just has a high IQ and ADHD....it's obviously not our fault that he's never had boundries set in his life and has no respect for his elders. How can you expect children to behave and be receptive to education if society has no respect for teachers? It's got nothing to do with bad teaching, society has just become paranoid and protective - there were plenty of bad teachers in the 60's....for every personal experience with bad modern teachers I'm sure many of us can produce examples of bad teacher 20-50 years ago..... My old man once had a teacher that would just read newspapers and drink tea in class, at a good grammar. It's nothing new, what is new is the childlike total lack of respect for teachers from parents.

She does it because she is a teacher, deep in her DNA.

Junk science alert! 😀

That you went to school so are an expert?

there's some in here who think they're up on Economics because they can use a cashpoint 🙂

TBF stoner, some of them link to graphs 😉

She does it because she is a teacher, deep in her DNA.

Junk science alert!

Thats cos I woz tort by them junk teechers innit? 🙂

brassneck

That Carlin Chap is pretty funny, thanks.

there's some in here who think they're up on Economics because they can use a cashpoint

...same as many who sit in the House of Commons!

some of them link to graphs

Whilst you're googling, you might want to compare teachers wages with others who have to spend 4 years in further education plus probationary time to qualify, and see how they fair there.

i bet there are numerous jobs/trades/professions with an equal or greater duty of care that are less well paid and without the pension or holidays that teachers have.

i think one of the issues is the "i work really hard and am poorly paid" whinge from a lot of teachers.
deal with it. not every non-teacher is an investment banker drawing on the teat of humanity.
quit moaning and do your job.

i think one of the issues is the "i work really hard and am poorly paid" whinge from a lot of teachers.
deal with it. not every non-teacher is an investment banker drawing on the teat of humanity.
quit moaning and do your job.

You didn't read my post then? I said the pay was good. That wasn't the issue.

In fact I have not heard a teacher moaning about pay for over 10 years.

Maybe they'd moan less if it had not effectively become a prison officer role without the clubs, guns, riot shields and legal protection so that if you have any problems a bunch of nutters in riot gear storm in and kick the crap out of everyone. Instead we now have violence and abuse aimed at teachers and they often feel powerless to protect themselves, would you have the guts to restrain a kid knowing what the consequences could be if the parents decided to take action against you?

Can you cite an example where a teacher has said this whinge?
Should be easy seeing as a "lots" of them do it.
It is a stupid and lazy caricature to suggest they do, done I assume to serve your own agenda

+1 Junky

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/sep/07/teaching-union-vote-strike-pay ]http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/sep/07/teaching-union-vote-strike-pay[/url]

The union's general secretary, Christine Blower, said: "The NUT is left with no option but to take action to protect the wellbeing of our members and restore their rights to do their job thoroughly and properly. Teachers are being undermined by a government whose almost daily criticisms and erosion of working conditions and [b]pay[/b], coming on top of previous attacks on [b]pensions[/b], are unacceptable. This negative approach to the profession has to stop.

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/79ac90ec-f8f8-11e1-b4ba-00144feabdc0.html#ixzz27OQBvLhv

The Department for Education said: “Parents and members of the public will struggle to understand why the NUT chose to ballot their members now about pay and working conditions when decisions about future pay arrangements have yet to be made.”

So, don't you think people teaching your children need to be treated better instead of constantly being undermined by parents and governments with political agendas?

Thanks now can you cite an example that
a) Proves what you have claimed
b) is from a practising teacher rather than a Union leader who represents teachers

As wages have been cut in real terms as has the pension so it is factually accurate to say this and does not amount to saying
"i work really hard and am poorly paid

Face palms

Thanks now can you cite an example that
a) Proves what you have claimed
b) is from a teacher rather than a Union leader

from a conversation with a friends wife (secondary school teacher) obviously i am not going to name my source.
as for "poorly paid"? you have just said that pension and wages have been cut in real terms. 🙄
which is actually my point, it's a bit shit for a lot of people. in case you hadn't noticed there was a credit crunch/recession and cuts are being made across the board while living costs rise, savings fall and wages are static or falling. FOR EVERYONE (apart from bankers)

as for "poorly paid"? you have just said that pension and wages have been cut in real terms.

Your economic rantette meets with little disagreement with me but I must reject your attempt to move the goalposts and attempt to discuss something unrelated to what we were discussing.

So we have an unnamed mates wife ..I retract my point that is indeed proof that this is indeed the

whinge from a lot of teachers.

I can understand teachers frustrations. They've gone to university and (in my daughters case) ended up with a massive loan to pay back. Yet now the gov are erroding their chances of ever being able to even afford a standard of living where they can attain a mortgage.

Then again.. my wife is on 1/3 a teachers salary yet is expected to stand in for them when they are off! (but thats another story)

Junkyard - Member
but I must reject your attempt to move the goalposts and attempt to discuss something unrelated to what we were discussing.

Why is that? This whole thread (and the associated media and political noise) has digressed away from the central question of whether schools should have greater discretion in setting wages for teachers. Why stop now? 😉

as for "poorly paid"? you have just said that pension and wages have been cut in real terms.
which is actually my point, it's a bit shit for a lot of people. in case you hadn't noticed there was a credit crunch/recession and cuts are being made across the board while living costs rise, savings fall and wages are static or falling. FOR EVERYONE (apart from bankers)

Actually for the top 50 percent real wages should go up by 2020 and the bottom 50 percent will probably see their wages fall in real terms. Basically the statistical variation from the average real wages between the these groups will increase. A lot of teachers pay scale falls below the average wage, so I should imagine that your theory will prove to be flawed.

Actually for the top 50 percent real wages should go up by 2020 and the bottom 50 percent will probably see their wages fall in real terms. Basically the statistical variation from the average real wages between the these groups will increase. A lot of teachers pay scale falls below the average wage, so I should imagine that your theory will prove to be flawed.

How can you say such things ? 8 years from now, even stalin only worked to a five year plan, and he controlled the state

i don't know who to believe? 🙄
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7372058.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7372058.stm[/url]

Well few teachers with some experience behind them are just 'classroom teachers', once a teacher has gained some experience they tend to take on some responsibility which boosts their salary. So, the word have been chosen carefully in the article.

did the article not remove heads of department/specialist staff and then state the extra skills and the the top pay that generates and is added to the "average" of £32,200? *

*2006
*after five years service with yearly increases to that figure

*from the article:
"Classroom teachers who take on significant extra responsibilities, for example as subject co-ordinators, may be awarded a Teaching and Learning Responsibility (TLR) payment.
These range £2,364 to £11,557 a year."

Teachers pay is on nationally published pay scales. You can see my payscale at

I've been teaching for long enough to have reached P3 which is £36,279. This puts me in the top 25% of earners in the UK, but outside the top 10%. My train driver friend earns more than me, as do lots of people I was at uni with. But living in the North East means I'm well paid compared to lots of people locally.

I'd not argue that I or other teachers need more money or more holidays, but I'd happily have less work to do each week and I'd love to get my weekends back. I'd swap shorter holidays for fewer contact hours in a flash, so that I can get all of my work done during the week; at the moment the holidays are a trade-off for spending evenings and weekends working at home. I'd also like some more flexibility in my work as planning to do anything on a weekend is almost impossible.

Junkyard - Member

Please tell me you are not one of those responsible for tutoring our young..

there is only one conclusion that can be reached to that question

[i]try[/i]' there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from that question' [i]sounds much better[/i]

Junkyard - Member
I either am or I am not

There their they're, prick a bit did it? I do hope it's bicycle mechanics or woodwork you teach.. :wink

Oh and don't think it hasn't escaped our attention out here in the private sector where a days work prevented posting on internet forums, the number of posts that must have emanated from the staff room over a cuppa.. tough life.

there is only one conclusion that can be drawn from that question'

Oh FFS

So what did i miss whilst i was working?

the number of posts that must have emanated from the staff room over a cuppa.. tough life.

👿

MrSmith - Member

i don't know who to believe?

Well I know not believe you. You said, quote :

[b][i]"i think one of the issues is the "i work really hard and am poorly paid" whinge from a lot of teachers".[/i][/b]

You were asked to provide evidence that "a lot of teachers" claim to be poorly paid and yet you have provided none whatsoever.

That is despite the fact that several teachers have posted on this thread, and copying and pasting their alleged whinge about being poorly paid would have been extremely easy.

I reckon you owe teachers an apology MrSmith 💡

Is this still going on?

Have we answered the initial point?:

The head of Ofsted said it was unfair that people who put in little effort advance up the pay scale at the same rate as those who put in extra effort. Teachers then got upset thinking he'd said all teachers leave school at 3pm.

Sir Michael Wilshaw told the Times that teachers who were "out the gate at 3pm" should not be promoted.

Members of staff who went the "extra mile", Sir Michael explained, would be paid well and receive promotion.

(It would help if the original interview wasn't behind the Times paywall. Does anyone have a link to it anywhere freely available?

Automatic progression up the pay scale [i]is[/i] something that should be looked at. As is the knee-jerk reaction of the unions to any perceived attack upon the profession.

As I understand it, if Ofsted see a poor lesson from a teacher, they will query their progression up the pay scale. If the school has data to back up their recommendation for progression, there shouldn't be an issue. I occasionally have a lesson which isn't great*, but I'm confident that there is data there to back up my salary progression.

In fact, I have a 100% record of getting grade 2 lesson observation, but I always teach the lesson I had planned and don't cherry pick a 'good' lesson. I've had some shockers that weren't observed and some amazing lessons too.

I'm off home now, so I can see my kids into bed before starting coursework marking again.

i'm certainly not apologising to teachers, i might think about about it if my secondary school apologises to me for not really giving a toss about anyone who didn't fit into their rigid ideas about the kind of student they wanted to produce.

as for 'evidence' of whinging, anyone who stands up and demands more money/pension rights in this current climate is a whinger. that's my interpretation, yours will be different.

some whingers:
[img] [/img]

i actually couldn't give a toss what they earn, just stop whinging about it when nearly everyone has taken an income cut in real terms.

I took strike action and went on those marches. they were entirely motivated by concern for what will happen in schools once the changes were in place. Any one of the proposed changes individually would have been ok, but the range and depth of changes, coming so soon after previous reform of the TP system and accompanied by other changes to working arrangement and the inspection regime were just too much.

You may have noticed a few other public sector unions were annoyed, not just the teachers?

anyone who stands up and demands more money/pension rights in this current climate is a whinger.

So teachers are not whingers then as they dont want better they just want to keep what they had that has been independently assessed as affordable and has a egally binding contract that any shortfall comes from teachers and not from the givt. they wanted to keep what they had they did not want anything better

By not fit in at school do you mean did not listen, could not form a coherent argument, easily sidetracked by his anger, ignored the evidence ?

good for you.
hopefully you had a 'secure your childs future' banner rather than 'fair pay for teachers' 🙄

yes i did notice the other strikes/ strike threats too.

i'm certainly not apologising to teachers, i might think about about it if my secondary school apologises to me for not really giving a toss about anyone who didn't fit into their rigid ideas about the kind of student they wanted to produce.

i'm certainly not apologising to teachers

So you think it is perfectly acceptable to misrepresent people do you ?

Your allegation of "a lot of teachers" claiming to be poorly paid is patently false. But you clearly haven't got the guts to admit it. Quite pathetic really 😐

By not fit in at school do you mean did not listen, could not form a coherent argument, easily sidetracked by his anger, ignored the evidence ?

subtle.

i meant the rigid streaming structure where if you were good in 3 out of 6 subjects but at a lower level in 3 you were put in the middle set for all which meant you fell behind when you should have been put in a class that matched your ability for each subject.
so you get bored in half the lessons because you should be in the top set for some subjects but behind in others because you are placed too high. this only changed in 4th year (year 12 now?) which is too late.

So you think it is perfectly acceptable to misrepresent people do you ?

Your allegation of "a lot of teachers" claiming to be poorly paid is patently false. But you clearly haven't got the guts to admit it. Quite pathetic reall

it's the internet. people are misrepresented all the time.
deal with it.
i stand by what i said, a lot of teachers whinge about their lot.
don't believe me? good for you i wouldn't take to heart what people say on a forum about bikes and stuff to heart either.

4th year (year 12 now?)

Year 10

Teachers still not good enough, though a little more effort. 4/10.

i stand by what i said, a lot of teachers whinge about their lot.

Yeah but that is not what you said. You were very specific. You said that a lot of teachers were whingeing about being "poorly paid".

We've now established that it isn't true, so you are now trying to deny that you ever said it.

I think that sums it up nicely, don't you ?