FFS no you right it's not their fault- It's the system ,it's the goverment ,it's the parents , it's the kids ,it's the wrong exam.
So your sarcasm implies that it that [i]it can only[/i] be the fault of the teachers ?
Well I'm sorry I didn't know that ..... it wasn't obvious to me.
Got any proof to back up your claim ? I need more than tabloid type knee-jerk "well it's obvious" reactions.
FFS no you right it's not their fault- It's the system ,it's the goverment ,it's the parents , it's the kids ,it's the wrong exam.
Calm down dear.
If you want to make a difference for a given set of students then teacher quality is the only game in town. The other things you mention just aren't remotely near this one variable in terms of importance. Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?A lot of the stories that crop up about poor teaching are smokescreen to deflect attention away from the fact that the government aren't willing or able to do the things that would really make a difference like smaller class sizes, investment in facilities and implementing alternative curricula for the disengaged.
So the government are obv right to emphasise that they're tackling teacher quality, it's the single most important thing that will impact education standards. Whether they're going about it the right way is another question - probably something only a teacher would know.
If you want to make a difference for a given set of students then teacher quality is the only game in town. The other things you mention just aren't remotely near this one variable in terms of importance. Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?
Evidence please for this assertion.
No one is arguing the quality of the teacher does not matter
Would a weaker teacher not be better with less children and better resources?
Would a great teacher be unaffected by teaching 200 in an outside portacabin?
Why would you waste time and money giving weak teachers small classes and nice classrooms?
You're not; you're giving pupils small class sizes and nice rooms.
Smaller classes seems to work in the private sector and I dont think there is any evidence they have better teachers.
A good discussion of this issue can be found in this article from Gladwell [url= http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_gladwell ]here[/url] - (fairly long but interesting IMO, basically dealing with how hard it is to assess and predict teacher quality, and how crucial it is). [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Hanushek ]Hanushek [/url]is the primary guy he is basing his article's theme on if you want to get into the research behind it.Evidence please for this assertion.
No one is arguing the quality of the teacher does not matter
Would a weaker teacher not be better with less children and better resources?
Would a great teacher be unaffected by teaching 200 in an outside portacabin?
Funny how the government tell us that if we want the best bankers then we have to pay them millions, yet if we want the best teachers or nurses then you have to pay them poorly and blame them for just about every issue in society.
Want the best education system? Then pay for it.
Really?
average teacher salary puts them on the edge of the top ten percent of earners in the country - hardly poverty wages is it?
Garry_Lager -
As you say teacher quality is a hard thing to assess. My feeling is that failing teachers are far less common than the press / government would have us believe.
Yes, we need to be better at weeding them out but I'd be surprised if sacking the odd muppet had much affect on national averages.
I skimmed the first link not caring about quarterbacks and only the last paragraph has any bearing and just explains the view
the wiki link is better but does include
He is perhaps best known for the controversial assertion that "money doesn't matter"--that is, he says that the amount of money spent in an American school district is not related to the amount of student learning in that district--and he is often called to testify in court about school funding schemes.
He is best known for his analysis of the determinants of student achievement. This analysis has documented the inconsistent relationship between school resources and student outcomes.[2] The overall findings have proved to be very controversial and have led to a variety of scholarly exchanges over time. The research related to the ineffectiveness of class size reduction has been particularly controversial and has entered into a variety of policy debates.[3] At the same time, his research has documented the overwhelming importance of teacher quality, although teacher quality is not closely related to the salaries, education, or experience of teachers. He was the first researcher to measure teacher effectiveness by the learning gains of the teacher's students.[4] This work is the foundation of the now-common approach to assessing teacher quality by the "value-added" of the teacher. The research on the effectiveness of educational resources has been central to many debates about school finance and has been a component of court cases about state funding of schools. In other work he has shown that cognitive skills are very closely related to economic outcomes, not only for individuals but also for nations. Variations in growth rates across countries can be largely explained by consideration of the role of cognitive skills.[5] This analysis provides a justification for state and federal accountability systems that promote higher skills through improved school quality. By linking the analysis of teacher value-added with research on the economic impact of differences in achievement both for individual earnings and for economic growth, he has also estimated the economic value of high quality teachers, showing that the impact of differences in teacher quality is very large.[6]
It not universally accepted
But Hanushek’s argument has been discredited. While not every dollar a school spends directly improves academic outcomes, a new report from Rutgers school-finance expert Bruce Baker finds certain kinds of money very much do matter: extra funding for higher teacher salaries and more equitable distribution of resources between rich and poor districts, for example, are correlated with higher student achievement, especially for the neediest kids. After reviewing the body of research on school finance, Denver Judge Sheila Rappaport ruled in December that Colorado’s school funding system violates the state’s constitutional promise of “uniform” educational opportunity for all children. During the trial, Hanushek testified on behalf of the state. But Rappaport noted in her ruling that “Dr. Hanushek’s analysis…defies logic and is statistically flawed.”
http://www.thenation.com/article/167570/what-teachers-want
As i said I dint think anyone will argue teacher quality does not matter but equally i dont think anyone will argue[ ok someone will argue anything so I mean convincingly with actual evidence] that money /class sizes/resources makes no difference to outcomes.
The most influential and credible study of CSR is the Student Teacher Achievement Ratio, or STAR, study which was conducted in Tennessee during the late 1980s. In this study, students and teachers were randomly assigned to a small class, with an average of 15 students, or a regular class, with an average of 22 students. This large reduction in class size (7 students, or 32 percent) was found to increase student achievement by an amount equivalent to about 3 additional months of schooling four years later.Studies of class size in Texas and Israel also found benefits of smaller classes, although the gains associated with smaller classes were smaller in magnitude than those in the Tennessee STAR study. Other rigorous studies have found mixed effects in California and in other countries, and no effects in Florida and Connecticut.
Because the pool of credible studies is small and the individual studies differ in the setting, method, grades, and magnitude of class size variation that is studied, conclusions have to be tentative. But it appears that very large class-size reductions, on the order of magnitude of 7-10 fewer students per class, can have significant long-term effects on student achievement and other meaningful outcomes. These effects seem to be largest when introduced in the earliest grades, and for students from less advantaged family backgrounds.
http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/05/11-class-size-whitehurst-chingos
Really?
Yes really. The present government obviously believes that teachers are overpaid and that their purchasing power should be reduced, hence the two year freeze on teacher's salaries - the intention is to make them poorer.
In contrast the present government is clearly relaxed about top bankers receiving salary increases way above inflation - the intention is to see them become wealthier.
Stevewhyte's comment is perfectly valid.
Just show how poorly paid even the top 10% of earners are. That's amazing I would never have thought.
Poverty?? Time to go to spec savers me thinks.
If anyone would know if class sizes make a difference it would be teachers. So you would think the the government would ask them, but no.
It's funny really how the last group to get asked their opinion on education is teachers. You have to ask why that is.
A good discussion of this issue can be found in this article from Gladwell here
A great example of the Gladwell modus operandi:
Find an interesting piece of research and weave a ton of waffle around it until it looks like you have some ownership of the original idea yourself.
It's funny really how the last group to get asked their opinion on education is teachers.
Are you saying that Michael Gove doesn't know anything about eduction ?
Surely he must have learnt something about education during his time as a reporter - no ?
The problem with the education system is the parents. It's that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can't teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.
Sure, but all popular economics / social science writers do that. Gladwell is just one of the most prominent (and best) so gets more than his fair share of stick.A great example of the Gladwell modus operandi:Find an interesting piece of research and weave a ton of waffle around it until it looks like you have some ownership of the original idea yourself.
Even science writers like Dawkins aren't coming up with much in the way of original ideas themselves, not at the scientific level. The Selfish gene is not a monumental text because it contained original ideas or new research.
ernie_lynch - Member
Yes really. The present government obviously believes that teachers are overpaid and that their purchasing power should be reduced, hence the two year freeze on teacher's salaries - the intention is to make them poorer.
Really?
“Given that high quality teachers drive up pupils’ achievement, it is crucial that the pay system enables head teachers to reward the best teachers who can have the biggest impact on pupil outcomes,” the report said.
A slightly different spin on the same story. But all this anti-government stuff is making me confused, only the other day I was being pursuaded on here by the idea that
You mean the poupils can have the dedcision made for them by apolitician acountable to the peope via an electoral system or they can have it thrust apon them by a teacher who is acountable in what way exactly
...followed by
Junkyard - Member
I have had a car, have driven for years, have fixed mine occasionally so I best get on to car designers and F1 and tell them where they are going wrong. The point is you have a little knowledge of the subject and yet some think they can preach to /at and criticise the actual experts.you never did respond to my point about a teacher coming and doing this to you when you were doing your job did you. Would you take my unpalatable observations?
...its all too much. I need to sleep on it! Bon nuit.
[i]The problem with the education system is the parents. It's that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can't teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.[/i]
Absolutely spot on. It's an ongoing thing.
I see it in prison, I see prisoners at first hand & I see visitors at first hand & I think, 'hardly surprising'
Not all prisoners/visitors though, just a fair majority.
So why do private schools have smaller classes and spend more per pupil?
anagallis_arvensis - Member
So why do private schools have smaller classes and spend more per pupil?Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post
How many people "work" in your authority's EDS? 8)
The problem with the education system is the parents. It's that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can't teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.Absolutely spot on. It's an ongoing thing.
I see it in prison, I see prisoners at first hand & I see visitors at first hand & I think, 'hardly surprising'
Not all prisoners/visitors though, just a fair majority.
the first post by someone with no kids.
the second using 'prisoners' to extrapolate about societal problems
I blame god........
Time was, teaching was a respectable profession, you would ask a teacher or a magistrate to sign your passport photograph, they like the Police, were held with some respect within the community, now without going into the why's and wherefores of post modern political Britain, that sadly is no longer the case, because of the general drop off in standards, so when you find yourself having to correct mistakes of those paid to do a task, quite naturally that respect erodes. In my case I've witnessed four above average intelligent girls pass through private school, it would take a book rather than a forum post to detail all the anecdotal horrors of modern education even in private schools, but suffice to say the number of teachers that these days are worth their pay is a lot less than it was a while back imv.
As to that latest piece of work, it was a history project about the role of Women in Elizabethan England, we even had a family debate as to how it compared with Women in certain Muslim countries today as an ironical aside, but, it was as with most projects a googled wikifest enhanced only by the fact No4 daughter had created an artificial tea stain induced parchment effect. Probably this that drew the excellent marking, but nonetheless the written content was lacking as indicated and not marked as such, so I can only draw one conclusion from that, and that is either the teacher isn't aware of the 'they're their and there' difference of use and meaning or simply can't be asked, either way not a shining example for pupil or parent and certainly not the profession. If it were an isolated incident then it could be forgiven and forgotten, but it aint, at work I'm on the receiving end of CV's that you would think might be sub edited correctly, I've had University Educated types who don't know the meaning of some day to day phrases, words and their meanings, my eldest daughters having passed through University didn't even know who Admiral Nelson was and what he did.
All the Fundamentals are forgotten, human ability to communicate by reading and writing is paramount in any job as to a certain extent is elementary maths, the three rrr's the newspapers all crack on about, which it is the duty of all teaching folk to impart to the young, all the young not just a few and they aint doing it, it's as simple as that.
Sorry about the rant, I tried to stay away, but seriously teachers - no it's not the hours, or the money, sadly it's more likely second or third generation result of bad teachers before them, they probably don't actually know any different and lots just don't leave the system, out of school through college then become teacher and perpetuate the dross. Not everyone, but too many for comfort.
On a more humorous note anyone seen the Bad Teacher movie starring Cameron Diaz? Hilarious, don't you just love that woman?
my eldest daughters having passed through University didn't even know who Admiral Nelson was and what he did.
Ha ha, that made me laugh! You sound like my Mum berating me for not knowing the capital cities of all the worlds countries "despite doing Geography at A-level"*!
I'm mid 30's too!
* She'll never understand truncated valleys or plate tectonic theory though...
You can't teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.
🙄
Lets not bother then. Sins of the father and all that.
Peyote - does she also correct you for mistaking a truncated spur for a hanging or U-shaped valley? 😉 Or was that a humorous attempt at demonstrating why accuracy/typos etc are/are not important!!!
Peyote - Member
Ha ha, that made me laugh! You sound like my Mum berating me for not knowing the capital cities of all the worlds countries "despite doing Geography at A-level"*!I'm mid 30's too!
* She'll never understand truncated valleys or plate tectonic theory though...
Which does beg the question though does it not - the lack of knowledge of which item degrades you most?
Peyote - does she also correct you for mistaking a truncated spur for a hanging or U-shaped valley? Or was that a humorous attempt at demonstrating why accuracy/typos etc are/are not important!!!
😳 It's still early, and my A-levels were a long time ago! That's over 10 years where I haven't used that knowledge! Okay, okay so I messed up with the example! Nope, there was no deliberate humour there either.
Which does beg the question though does it not - the lack of knowledge of which item degrades you most?
It only begs the question if you want it answered! Not sure to be honest , I think in my current life and the intervening years neither my knowledge (or lack of it) of both Capital cities and Physical Geography have caused me undue stress or hassle.
So why do private schools have smaller classes and spend more per pupil?
Money. You can buy success.
You could look at education the same way as the Olympics. There will always be a few athletes who will rise to the top despite lack of resources to do so, but sprinkle a load of money on it and you get loads of medallists.
Not enough is being spent in education, and placing barriers such as high tuition fees for universities is further reducing the chances of those who have the ability, but lack the finance of getting somewhere. As an economic entity, this country doesn't half know how to shoot itself in the foot.
The teachers working hours is smoke and mirrors. Divide and conquer.
Teachers could do better. I give them 3 out of 10. 🙂
unless i am very much mistaken that is two reasons and you dont know which is true...do you know what conclusion means?I can only draw one conclusion from that, and that is either the teacher isn't aware of the 'they're their and there' difference of use and meaning or simply can't be asked,
If it were an isolated incident then it could be forgiven and forgotten, but it [b]aint,[/b]
Yes my thoughts exactly. The irony of you bemoaning the use of language and doing this,was it intentional
my eldest daughters having passed through University didn't even know who Admiral Nelson was and what he did.
That is tragic could she at least name the labours of Hercules?
As to that latest piece of work, it was a history project about the role of Women in Elizabethan England, we even had a family debate as to how it compared with Women in certain Muslim countries today as an ironical aside, but, it was as with most projects a googled wikifest enhanced only by the fact No4 daughter had created an artificial tea stain induced parchment effect. Probably this that drew the excellent marking, but nonetheless the written content was lacking as indicated and not marked as such, so I can only draw one conclusion from that, and that is either the teacher isn't aware of the 'they're their and there' difference of use and meaning or simply can't be asked, either way not a shining example for pupil or parent and certainly not the profession.
Here's another conclusion:
The teacher was marking a piece of work on which it appeared the student had put in a bit of extra effort in its appearance. So, the teacher didn't scrawl all over the piece of work to point out some spelling mistakes.
Junkyard - Member
I can only draw one conclusion from that, and that is either the teacher isn't aware of the 'they're their and there' difference of use and meaning or simply can't be asked,
unless i am very much mistaken that is two reasons and you dont know which is true...do you know what conclusion means?
Er that is the conclusion, the two alternatives from an either or scenario.. Please tell me you are not one of those responsible for tutoring our young.. 😕
esselgruntfuttock - Member
The problem with the education system is the parents. It's that simple, you can try to teach kids but when you send them back home to a bunch of retarded shit slinging monkeys then they regress. You can't teach children with no boundaries or discipline set at home.Absolutely spot on. It's an ongoing thing.
I see it in prison, I see prisoners at first hand & I see visitors at first hand & I think, 'hardly surprising'
Not all prisoners/visitors though, just a fair majority.
My daughter would disagree with these statements as it is her job to teach a bunch of 5yr olds from an area full of "disadvantaged" people. This week she not only has to prep lessons and teach but the school is preparing for their Offstead inspection and she has to attend 4 after school staff meetings! At the start of term all teachers were asked(demanded) by the head teacher what they were going to do extra for the school/local community after hours in their own time!!! Getting home to look after their own families/children is not considered important.......
When dealing with parents there is always another member or two hovering in the near vicinity, police patrol to roadways at school start and finish times and have been called in during breaks! She has been threatened by parents, spat at, sworn at and had toys and furniture thrown at her. She is only in her 2nd yr of teaching but spends more time working with social work, special needs and health specialist than teaching and will probably be burnt out within a couple of years if she does not give up beforehand for the sake of her own health...She loves the job btw and shares the view that the duff teachers should be binned asap.
Having got into teaching via doing an arts degree to MA level she was disgusted at the quality of lecturing at the teaching Uni, the poor/lack of mentoring and some of the practices she encountered during her placements. There may be lots of poor teachers(young and old) coming out of the teaching Unis but that is probably down to the quality of lecturing as much as the quality of the student.
Good post trekster, so many people have 'opinions' that really aren't theirs, just cliche induced reactions.
Thinking back to my school days(long ago)- i was a naughty boy, but the teachers that i remember are the ones who engaged with you, the others were just dismissive, distant, just doing a job, -- not their fault, many people 'find' themselves in jobs they are not suited to--
Doing a job you like is a real bonus, hope your daughter sticks at it for a while, as you know she will not really know the outcome of her input into these kids lives, but for some of them school really is a place of calm in their existence.
Please tell me you are not one of those responsible for tutoring our young..
there is only one conclusion that can be reached to that question
I either am or I [s]am not[/s]aint
HTH
🙄
Please tell me you are not one of those responsible for tutoring our young..
Please don't tell me YOU have kids!
Money. You can buy success.
You certainly can. Local public school in Sheffield gets very good results for a number of reasons - large financial input, fewer regulations and less state control, the opportunity to "remove" under-performing students and drop them back into the state system, all topped off with a network of contacts for when the pupils leave and need to be employed.
At some point, someone needs to point out that investment in education will work in precisely the same way as it does in industry/finance, the more cash available to develop the product (read kids) the better the product will be when it rolls off the production line (also investing in good and effective QA systems).
On the subject of spelling and grammar, we advertised a vacancy in the local area and we had quite a good response, many from recent graduates in the discipline for which we were recruiting.
However, we did not employ any of them because their spelling was appalling - trial written pieces peppered with all of the usual suspects - their/there/their, to/too, bought/brought, lie/lay, to name just a few. This was for a post where writing quick, clean copy was the single most important function.
Can't see any party having the testicles to grasp the nettle and start a ground up reform programme.
rogerthecat - Member
Can't see any party having the testicles to grasp the nettle and start a ground up reform programme.
At times like this,I think..."TJ would."
Too many posts and too little time, but here's a question: what makes the non-teachers who're commenting with such vitriol so qualified to make those comments? That you went to school so are an expert? You wouldn't tell your auto mechanic how to fix your car now, would you (actually, bad example on STW...)?
I'm not a teacher, but have many friends who are and the lack of tact shown here by the body who's supposed to be providing objective monitoring is amazing.
As anyone who knows a committed teacher will attest to, they're in before they have to be, rarely leave before they're contracted to, and it's usual to take work home. Anyone who thinks teaching is an 8-3 job for 39 weeks of the year is an ill-informed clown.
I can't see what all the fuss is about spelling.
After all, does it really matter if some of those students go on to be doctors and accidentally prescribe medicines with names that are pretty similar to the ones they intended? Surely, it's what they intended to write that really matters here not the fact the wrong thing was prescribed and the patient died as a result...
Is that the best you could come up with Farmer John ? How disappointing 😐
Really?average teacher salary puts them on the edge of the top ten percent of earners in the country - hardly poverty wages is it?
Whilst you're googling, you might want to compare teachers wages with others who have to spend 4 years in further education plus probationary time to qualify, and see how they fair there.
Wife is a foundation stage leader, wouldn't touch it with yours as a job. Only the holidays make it worthwhile (from a child care poiint of view for us), and I reckon the hours average out to 9-5 once included. She does it because she [b]is[/b] a teacher, deep in her DNA. That's all.
After all, does it really matter if some of those students go on to be doctors and accidentally prescribe medicines with names that are pretty similar to the ones they intended? Surely, it's what they intended to write that really matters here not the fact the wrong thing was prescribed and the patient died as a result.
When was the last time you could read your GPs handwriting 🙂
All this time and no one has said...
Teachers' Hours
???
