[Closed] Taking the kids out of school to going skiing. Opinions?

Sorry but all this claptrap about irresponsible parents is just BS. Clearly if the child is struggling, lagging behind or it is a significant year e.g. an exam year, then you'd expect any sensible parent to do the right thing - and those parents that wouldn't are probably failing the child in other, more serious areas. But other than that, a week out of the school year is no bother for the kid. The teachers don't seem to bother when they want to go on strike or take an inset day or two so lets leave the high and mighty principles out of it.

I've taken mine out for a week the last 3 years, and they're doing just fine - and we all immensely enjoyed our time away without an element of guilt at all. If they weren't doing well I wouldn't take them out. The only reason why i've not taken them out for a week this year is that the school has introduced more draconian rules and will charge kids so i've not bothered - thought its still financially viable to pay, but i wouldn't out of principle.

My kids are at the age that they're pretty exhausted by the end of a school term anyway, so very little gets done in the final week, the school is definitely on wind down by then, so nothing in terms of new content is missed.

When I was a kid it was still frowned upon at my school, but an element of discresion and common sence was exercised by both parents and teachers. There is only one thing driving this - the targets on child attendance. Its's nothing to do with their education.

What about time off for bike racing?

Surely that's OK?

For some reason a lot of Derbyshire schools had the week before off. I know of so many people who took advantage of this and got far cheaper weeks away even at places like centre parcs. I can totally understand why people do it.

i am taking my 5yr old out of her reception class to go skiing next month and have been fined £120.

wouldnt mind so much but when i booked it i thought it was half term (effing price certainly reflected it) but turns out i was looking at the wrong dates and we go the week before. apparently a week in the mountains does not constitute as 'exceptional circumstances' so gotta cough up.

i hate this middle class stigma too, i know its valid for many but for years i went skiing with my mates on last minute allocation on arrival deals staying in dorms, bunkhouses, or hotels fricking miles from anywhere, with some hand-me-down skis and borrowed clobber. living on bread, cheese and beer! it was just a weeks piss up really except we taught ourselves to ski during the day too. tearing down the blacks full of confidence but zero finesse, wiping out the Colmar kitted mincers! good times!

tbf we did have some luck with allocation on arrival too, being put in last unsold rooms in fancy chalets! result if you were expecting a week of ham&cheese baguettes.

apparently a week in the mountains does not constitute as 'exceptional circumstances' so gotta cough up.

Our school did tell us that if we could produce a letter from either of our employers saying that we couldn't take the half term holiday for some operational reason then they might consider that as "exceptional circumstances".

Would have been easy to knock up something on some headed notepaper, but neither of us felt comfortable lying about it.

To fly to the Canaries last week would have cost me £540 (with Ryanair), for this week it cost me £95 return. Yet another good reason for my giving up teaching : )

Sorry but all this claptrap about irresponsible parents is just BS.

The main argument is parents whining about the desperate need for a cheap holiday, despite knowing full-well that they signed up for compulsory attendance when they sent their kids to school.

The claptrap is the spurious justifications for it.

The main argument is parents whining about [s]the desperate need for a cheap holiday,[/s] draconian rules that fine and report good parents for perfectly reasonable behaviour

FTFY.

Thing is with prices, people see it as they're being hit with a premium for the popular time, school holidays, but the airlines argue those are the normal prices and the term times are discounted due to less popularity.

Anyway, solution is simply to stagger holidays. Different schools or regions take holidays at different times in the year, if not also staggering within schools themselves. Even it out and not everyone is going on holiday at the same time.

There's a lot of people getting hung up on the fact it's skiing (CLASSWORR!!!!), and missing the point that he rules have been changed (as Graham pointed out some time back) that it's no longer down to parental discretion.

It's another example of having to take the worst case scenario as the norm, rather than trusting parents to do the best for their children. It's nothing to do with the schools, they have to police it though (and many don't want too) as it reflects in their statistics badly. AFAIK there is no category for an agreed absence, it just shows as an absence, which reflects in the league tables.

My understanding is the fine is £60 (if paid within 28 days) per day of unauthorised absence per child. So adds up pretty quick.

If I were cynical I'd put this under the heading (along with certain OFSTED inspection changes) of trying to push more schools into academies and federations, where the organisational changes can cover the loss of headcount, as it's clear the majority of people can't or won't comply.

We generally holiday in the UK. Hiring a cottage goes up by around £300 a week as soon as the school holidays hit (summer at least - smaller but significant increases at other times). I'm not exactly poor but it still hurts a bit. Mrs B is a teacher so we don't really get the choice anyway but we have taken them out for a day (terrible stomach cramps all round) so we can do a holiday a week earlier and save a bit.

Anyway, solution is simply to stagger holidays. Different schools or regions take holidays at different times in the year, if not also staggering within schools themselves. Even it out and not everyone is going on holiday at the same time.

This is a good idea, but I reckon the prices will just go up for longer!
However, competition / demand might regulate more effectively so maybe it would be overall slightly cheaper. Worth a try anyway.

The main argument is parents whining about the desperate need for a cheap holiday, draconian rules that fine and report good parents for perfectly reasonable behaviour

FTFY.

You think it's draconian, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Regardless, you knew what you were signing up for, and the justifications you are providing are pretty pathetic, tbh.

The main argument is parents whining about the desperate need for a cheap holiday, despite knowing full-well that they signed up for compulsory attendance when they sent their kids to school.

They didn't though. It was introduced in this Parliament, even though it appears there wasn't a mass exodus from school every June - i.e. most parents acted responsibly but occasionally took an opportunity to have a holiday they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

Isn't just parents it affects either, I'm sure there are plenty of others who'd appreciate August being a little more reasonable a time to holiday financially.

Regardless, you knew what you were signing up for,

Nope. The rules changed. Bit like expecting a pension or certain working conditions then spitting your dummy out when they change.

Nope. The rules changed. Bit like expecting a pension or certain working conditions then spitting your dummy out when they change.

1. Graham's kid is four, so they haven't changed for her.
2. Compulsory attendance was expected prior to the introduction of fines.
3. My pension and working conditions have been changed more than once.

Next!

griffiths1000 »

All of which is available during the school holidays.

not for a 3rd of the price though.

Should've stuck in at school, got better results and a better paid job

For the record i started school at 9yrs old and went straight into work at 15yrs old. I now only have to work 3 days per week to support 3 kids and a wife on my wage...and no i am not on benefits.

Of course i could have done the usual 12 years at school and 4yrs at uni and be working in Tesco 5 days a week but i preferred the university of life approach, not recommending it for everyone but it worked for me.

You think it's draconian, I think it's perfectly reasonable.

You think it is "perfectly reasonable" to threaten to fine someone and report them to social services for taking their four year old child out of school for five days?

As I understand it the rules were sold on the basis that they would give schools more power to address [u]habitual[/u] truancy, particularly in vulnerable kids where the parents may be aware the kids are truant but not really care for whatever reason.

[i]That[/i] is reasonable, but isn't what is actually happening.

the justifications you are providing are pretty pathetic, tbh.

Which "justification" is pathetic?

1) Taking her out reduced the cost of the holiday by about two grand and meant there was the flight and room availability that we required. So essentially it made the holiday possible.

2) She is doing well in school and we don't believe that at four missing a week of colouring in would do any long term harm to her education, especially when balanced against the other experiences she would gain.

The two "justifications" go hand-in-hand. The first is the practical reason that we considered it and the second is the important one, consideration of her overall education, development and well-being.

FWIW we discussed it with her teacher well in advance to make sure she wasn't going to miss anything and ask if there was anything in particular we should cover with her while we were away. He was happy enough. There was a time when that would have been enough.

Just take them out, lie a bit, but do what you want. They're your kids after all. This summer again out two go back quite late due to inset days at the start of September. Got a nice cornish cottage again for 350 quid cheaper than the week before. You have to play the system a little and bargains are to be had, if they're perhaps one day late back to school then perhaps they were tired after the long journey home. Prove otherwise school 😉

and the justifications you are providing are pretty pathetic, tbh.

1. Saving 2k on a holiday is a pretty good justification from where I'm standing.
2. Parents being trusted to make their own decisions on whether their childs education and development will be negatively impacted is also a pretty good justification.
3. Maintaining a schools attendance statistics in the league tables is not a justification for a silly rule.
4. Punishing the majority of responsible parents for the errant behaviour of a few p*ss-takers is not a justification.

Glad it's not just me dazh. Well said. And you brassneck.

In my experience it is the teachers that don't give a toss about them.

Funnily enough, I'm writing this now because it's the Monday after half term and Mrs Pondo has spent the last couple of evenings in tears after working all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday (we were away before then, had to chose the holiday we could afford because teachers can't take leave to take holidays when they're cheaper - hey, it's just how life is, right?), and faces another term of monster workloads trying to get kids grades they (and their parents) don't seem interested in working for, because if the kids don't get the grades, that affects her career. So, you know, I wouldn't say teachers don't give a toss - some don't, I've no doubt, there are lazy and ****less people in all walks of life. But not all, not by a long chalk.

As i said, i would likely get shot down in flames. To clarify in my experience there are two categories of teachers: the majority who don't give a toss, but there is that rare breed such as Mrs Pondo who put their heart & soul into it, and unfortunately end up in tears, my hats off to them.

I don't even think the majority of the "majority" started off that way but have been worn down by the bureaucracy & red tape of the schooling system and disruptive element of the classes. Therefore it is easier to not give a toss than to spend their unpaid time stressed out and in tears.....well that's my bitter & twisted perspective anyway! 🙄

the majority who don't give a toss,

Yeah, right.

The only justification for taking your kids on holiday in term time is cost. Cultural development etc are also available during school holiday times.

Every other argument is spurious.

So admit you do it to get a cheap holiday you otherwise couldn't afford, and then people can agree or disagree with your point of view depending on their own.

The whole "rules have changed" thing is also rubbish. The rule has always been there, it's the enforcement that has changed.

Do some of you complain that having small kids causes sleep deprivation? Some things just follow on from having kids and you have to just mtfu and deal with it.

the majority who don't give a toss

Ha! I know a lot of teachers, and I'm pretty certain from the conversations I've had with them that it's not the sort of job that's do-able if you don't give a toss about it.

1. Graham's kid is four, so they haven't changed for her.
2. Compulsory attendance was expected prior to the introduction of fines.
3. My pension and working conditions have been changed more than once.

My kids are older so its relevant for me and the rules where changed to take the autonomy away from the school head who was able to take a more grown up and broader view.
My working conditions have also been changed several times.

I think I can condense DazH's bullet points a bit, good as they are:

1. She's 4. It really doesn't matter.

But I think the thread wasn't actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks (correct me if I'm wrong, got a pile of mouldy veg here I need rid of), more the general principal of the current legislation, which is utter bobbins. I can't see how it helps anyone. The ones who are going to kept out from school by their parents will be anyway, and fining them won't help.

the thread wasn't actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks

He knew what he was doing... 🙂

I think I can condense DazH's bullet points a bit, good as they are:

1. She's 4. It really doesn't matter.

But I think the thread wasn't actually supposed to be an opportunity to put Graham in the stocks (correct me if I'm wrong, got a pile of mouldy veg here I need rid of), more the general principal of the current legislation, which is utter bobbins. I can't see how it helps anyone. The ones who are going to kept out from school by their parents will be anyway, and fining them won't help.

Whole thread nicely condensed!

Just out of curiosity - how often do schools fine parents, and what are the sanctions for not paying ?

It seems like the last stop on a long train ride. First, the school has to be able to prove that the kids weren't all off with a stomach bug. Then they have to invoice the parents, and establish for certain that they have no intention to pay. I guess then they take the parents to court for non-payment ? Does the local authority do that ? Can they ban kids from school if the parents don't pay ? I thought there is a statutory obligation to provide education.

Oh yeah and home-school the kids for the bits they missed - I see the point about the teachers having to catch them up, but surely that would happen if the kid was off sick anyway - so why not ask for the material and do it yourself at the airport ?

If it was me, I would keep very quiet about what was happening, make sure there is no internet trail and the kids don't post tons of pics on FB about their holiday. In the whole benefits v consequences equation I would think the benefits win.

The only justification for taking your kids on holiday in term time is cost.

And availability.

Cultural development etc are also available during school holiday times.

Of course. That wasn't offered as a [i]reason[/i] to go away during term time. It is just part of the equation when balancing out the cost/benefit to the child.

So admit you do it to get a cheap holiday you otherwise couldn't afford

I thought I'd already been pretty clear about that.
We did it because otherwise we couldn't have gone on that holiday. Cost was a major factor in that. As was availability.

("cheap" is a pretty relative term as it still cost over three and half grand 😯 )

[quote=hels ]If it was me, I would[s] keep very quiet about what was happening, make sure there is no internet trail and the kids don't post tons of pics on FB about their holiday.[/s] Get the kids to lie I think we've covered the dishonesty bit already 😉

it still cost over three and half grand

Ooooh, get you and all your money sticking out of your arse. 😛

Every other argument is spurious.

So admit you do it to get a cheap holiday you otherwise couldn't afford, and then people can agree or disagree with your point of view depending on their own.

Yes but the cost is the point. If some people couldn't afford a holiday in school holidays they may not go at all.

The nub of the argument is can that holiday be of equal value to a family (I don't even think it has to be particularly educational if it has other benefits) as that time spent in school. I would argue the time in school is sometimes over valued versus other life experiences, particularly in the early years. My own experience is that nothing fires a childs mind like being there, seeing & doing things for themselves.

Some friends of mine are off to Australia with the kids during term time to see relatives for 4 weeks. Knowing them, they will make efforts to ensure they keep up with dat book lurnin' whilst they are away, but I suspect the other aspects of the trip will be of greater long term value, and seriously doubt it will have any long term detrimental effect.

FWIW I wouldn't take my kids out for that long. But the point is they shouldn't give a rats ass what I think as it's their responsibility as parents to do what they think is best.

Tell you what, lets stop calling it a holiday and say gap week 🙂

Schools don't fine parents, iirc, they report it and the education authority decide whether to fine?

Pretty pointless unless the fine is big enough to actually make holidays in term time uneconomic. Usual standard of poorly thought through legislation.

Just out of curiosity - how often do schools fine parents, and what are the sanctions for not paying ?

[url= https://www.gov.uk/school-attendance-absence/legal-action-to-enforce-school-attendance ]Not great I'd say.[/url]

Don't know of any stats on the actual fines being applied, but it generally seems to make local news (or maybe thats just the ones who don't jsut see it as a fair cop).

Pretty pointless unless the fine is big enough to actually make holidays in term time uneconomic. Usual standard of poorly thought through legislation.

I think that also points to the intention of the original legislation.
i.e. if the parents are ****less and don't care if their kids are habitually truant then perhaps some fines will [i]make[/i] them care.

Of course if the parents [i]are[/i] that ****less then I doubt they'd have any qualms about lying to the relevant authority anyway - so it still doesn't really work.

Wow - somebody managed to find something useful on the gov.uk website. Do you have the word "Digital" in your job title ?

P.S and thanks !

ROFL as it happens I do.. I have a feeling the design principle for that site was 'awwwww screw it, Google'll find it for them sooner or later. Let's get tacos'.

I die a little bit inside everytime I end up there.

He knew what he was doing...

Good point, well made 🙂

[i]1. Graham's kid is four, so they haven't changed for her.[/i]

How old are your other kids Graham?

Yes but the cost is the point. If some people couldn't afford a holiday in school holidays they may not go at all.

I would argue the time in school is sometimes over valued versus other life experiences, particularly in the early years

Of course if the parents are that ****less then I doubt they'd have any qualms about lying to the relevant authority anyway - so it still doesn't really work.

FWIW Graham, I can totally understand the bemusement about fining over your four year old missing a week, but in the broader context of your original post, I stand by my earlier replies (albeit in a slightly less belligerent way 🙂 ).

How old are your other kids Graham?

We've got two kids. Daughter at school (reception year) is four and her little sister is one and a half. So only the eldest was an issue.

I don't get this need for taking kids to far-flung expensive places for holidays. I didn't go abroad for a holiday ever with my parents and not myself until I was 36. I'm no different to anyone else because of it.

Making the excuse that it's good for their cultural development (or whatever) and experience of the world is just a cover for the fact that the [b]parent[/b] can't ever imagine not having their fancy holiday. Makes no difference to a primary school age child where you go.

Well, there's no legislation to say holidays are a human right.

Indeed, but I think most people would agree that quality time with family and a broad range of positive experiences are generally a good thing for child development.

So disrupting that with legislation that aims to protect and improve child development is a bit odd.

But as you say, the problem for schools facing targets and league tables is that life experience is hard to measure.

I stand by my earlier replies (albeit in a slightly less belligerent way ).

That's fine. As DD said I knew what I was doing when I started the thread 😀 I always find other people's viewpoints interesting, even if I don't share them.

And I can see us doing the same thing next year and probably several more years after that, so you can be more belligerent then 😀

dazh -
2. Parents being trusted to make their own decisions on whether their childs education and development will be negatively impacted is also a pretty good justification.