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I'm not disagreeing housing needs are inadequate, but i think that's a separate, much larger question, that shouldn't necessarily be tied to the emotion of this.tpbiker - Member
Ah I didn't realise that they were already allocated to social housing, didn't read that way on the BBC link.. Even mentioned that they may not be able to use the on site facilities..What is the point of incorporating social housing in these developments? Do the council get them for free? I'm not saying poor folks should not have nice housing, or we should create ghettos, but surely the cash should be better spent on providing adequate accommodation for all, rather than luxury accommodation for a few.
What is the point of incorporating social housing in these developments? Do the council get them for free? I'm not saying poor folks should not have nice housing, or we should create ghettos, but surely the cash should be better spent on providing adequate accommodation for all, rather than luxury accommodation for a few.
The point is that the developer is obliged to incorporate "affordable" housing as a condition of building the rest of the posh flats. Is it a perfect solution? No, it ain't, it's the sort of thing that is left over from Boris's handout of goodies to fat cats.
I think the social housing elements on some of these mixed developments even have separate/segregated entrances so one does not have to meet poor people.
See 'poor doors'
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jul/25/poor-doors-segregation-london-flats
As DrJ says any new build has to have a proportion of affordable housing built alongside it. It's not just a London thing.
Scroll down for site plan showing affordbale housing at Kensington Row
https://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/new-homes/london/kensington/kensington-row/thomas-earle-house
affordable ? social
[img] https://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/showMedia.cfm?iMediaID=8081&sMediaSubType=image1 [/img]
"affordable" != affordable
Did Mrs May read this thread? If she did I want consultation fees (though I suppose STW would get them as they own the rights).
As DrJ says any new build has to have a proportion of affordable housing built alongside it. It's not just a London thing.
A very good reason to avoid new builds these days because of this.
[quote=oldtalent ]
A very good reason to avoid new builds these days because of this.
yep. i'd hate to live next door to some of those posh ****s.
they do ...their cleanersMillionaires are sometimes obliged to see poorer folk - unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
The homes will be bought and managed by the City of London Corporation, and handed over to Kensington and Chelsea Council.
Looks like a pragmatic, timely-ish and fit-for-purpose solution. Wonder whether the govt/council will get any credit?
Agreed. They will however get no credit and the politicising of this tragedy will continue.
It seems like a potentially good long term solution.
As to politicisation issue, I think everyone else should probably shut up for a bit and listen to what those affected have to say.
Only just got back from work, but did I hear that they're not ready 'till the end of July, and then only some?
So we still have issues in the short term, realistically the next few months.
Bit out of the loop, but have all those affected now been found temporary places?
I'm not disagreeing housing needs are inadequate, but i think that's a separate, much larger question, that shouldn't necessarily be tied to the emotion of this.
On the contrary it is the perfect time to expose the failing UK housing markets. Thousands and thousands of family's up and down the country are suffering their own personal housing disasters.
If the wave of sympathy created by this could be ridden to change the way the housing market is currently operating to the disadvantage of so many, then maybe there could be a silver lining to the disaster.
tbh i honestly don't know the best way to take it forward, it's a big question.MSP - Member
I'm not disagreeing housing needs are inadequate, but i think that's a separate, much larger question, that shouldn't necessarily be tied to the emotion of this.
On the contrary it is the perfect time to expose the failing UK housing markets. Thousands and thousands of family's up and down the country are suffering their own personal housing disasters.If the wave of sympathy created by this could be ridden to change the way the housing market is currently operating to the disadvantage of so many, then maybe there could be a silver lining to the disaster.
The house I live in was a self build in the 1930s, built on land made available by law and paid for with affordable loans.
So my solution is:
1 free off an adequate almount of geen belt/
2 set out plots of 250m2 to be sold at what the land was worth before it had planning permission.
3 write a set of rules on what can be built, height, how it's positioned on the plot, hedge heights, tree hights and position on plot, wall height, gate types, roof covering (solar panels on all south, east and west facing roofs), wall colours, window and door sizes.
4 wealth and income limits on plot buyers. Only individual buyers. If the buyer sells within 10 years the full commercial value of the land must be paid.
5 buyers must design their own house or choose from 10 different models. Noromal building regs apply in addition to above.
6 Buyers can self build or subcontract to companies or tradesmen with an annual turnover of less than £5m
Lots of homes and an economic boom.
[quote=jambalaya ]They will however get no credit and the politicising of this tragedy will continue.
How sad - because clearly the causes of this particular tragedy and the housing crisis in general clearly have nothing at all to do with politics 🙄
[quote=Edukator ]4 wealth and income limits on plot buyers. Only individual buyers. If the buyer sells within 10 years the full commercial value of the land must be paid.
Commercial value at the time the original buyer sells? I can see that being tricky, but if not then it remains an easy way for those without capital to effectively leverage. Of course people still have to live somewhere, but I can't see the attitude of property as investment being broken any time soon.
The government would buy the land at a generous price for agricultural land as it would for a motorway railway or whatever. It sells to the first buyers at that rate. However the buyers remain liable to pay the full price if they sell within 10 years. There on it would be digressive up to say 30 years after which there would be nothing more to pay on sale.
You add other clauses such as no renting out unless you pay the full commercial land value before doing so.
How sad - because clearly the causes of this particular tragedy and the housing crisis in general clearly have nothing at all to do with politics
£8.6m refurb. Sprinklers £200k, fire resistant panels £5k extra vs ones used. Very poor decisions where made.
From 1997-2010 how much did the Labour Govt spend on renovations / maintenance
How many other blocks within London amd the UK have had similar works, sprinklers / insulation panels ? Done to what standard ?
Edukator those of us who live in the South East value our green belt very highly. There is more than enough land and brown-field (ie ex commercial use) land for houses and flats. There are plenty of very affordable houses available nationally. The UK's "housing crises" is primarliy due to emoymwnt opportunities being much better in the SE and pressure from a growing and aging population.
You forgot a couple of things Jambalaya.
A lack of social house building by the state, has the effect of reining in property, rental and land price inflation.
Those with land banks (Bovis and the other private sector builders) strictly limit the number of houses they build a year to maintain price inflation.
I would suggest that these are more of a driver on price inflation than employment opportunities. The second can be largely ameliorated by a massive expansion of the first. Maybe we (the country) allow someone like Bovis fail 'pour encourager les autres' when we start to expand state provided social housing.
your last post on this complained thuslyFrom 1997-2010 how much did the Labour Govt spend on renovations / maintenance
They will however get no credit and the politicising of this tragedy will continue.
Apparently some seem intent on this dont they Jamby
PS as you have probably forgotten that was you yesterday on this thread and here you are politicising it today
I thought this was a pretty good summary of some of the nonsense posted in this thread:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/grenfell-tower-fire-survivors-new-homes-crazy-marxists-a7803441.html
It’s the same with those irresponsible Marxists who went down with blankets and food, the communist bastards. They should have set up a pop-up bedding and hot chocolate store to tap into extensive market opportunities.
It’s the same with those irresponsible Marxists who went down with blankets and food, the communist bastards. They should have set up a pop-up bedding and hot chocolate store to tap into extensive market opportunities.
Too right, they've all got £5,000 burning a hole in their pocket.
Interesting article on green belt & brown field sites:
[url= https://www.pbctoday.co.uk/news/planning-construction-news/brownfield-development-vs-green-belt-pros-cons/33572 ]Link[/url]
zanelad - MemberToo right, they've all got £5,000 burning a hole in their pocket.
Might want to think about your choice of language there Zane.
I would suggest that these are more of a driver on price inflation than employment opportunities.
A further even bigger driver has been the way that banks and other lenders lent ever larger and larger multiples of salary to people wanting to buy a home, and the role of governments and central banks in setting low interest rates, resulting in a lot of cheap money which went into the mortgage market.
Arguably, just as banks should not lend irresponsibly, so to borrowers should not over extend themselves. However, that fails to recognise the imbalance in the roles played by individuals, who are often desparate to buy a home, especially so in the face of rising prices reducing their buying power, versus a relatively small number of major financial organisations that were able to exploit the situation and governments/central banks that preferred to avoid doing anything to fix the problem.
Add to that distortions in the housing market such as the tax/interest rate advantages that BTL landlords were able to exploit, and the fact that housing as an investment has tax advantages over other types of investment.
Might want to think about your choice of language there Zane.
Really!
jambalaya - Member
There are plenty of very affordable houses available nationally. The UK's "housing crises" is primarliy due to emoymwnt opportunities being much better in the SE and pressure from a growing and aging population.
You need to think that through. Affordablity is to do with cost versus means. So yes you can buy a house in Hull easily on a London salary, but...
Perhaps the answer is to forcibly move some high end companies out of London thereby sorting London's housing crisis and Hull's high end employment crisis.
(Disclaimer - note that all facts are made up on the spot. Particularly the accurate ones. )
Unfortunately Jamba is actually right, there is masses of under utilised housing and brown fiekd sites in the North. Youll never provide enough housing in the South East.
Personally though i think slowster nails it and a lot of that happened on Gorden Browns watch. The developers will never actively work to bring housing costs down, limit the amount of available credit and prices will come down and buy to let will be curtailed.
Stumpy - then both areas eventually die. You need to restructure the country for everyone's benefit (in simple terms find a way of getting high paid jobs out of the south east). Unfortunately that takes a very long time and projects like HS2 actually hurt the process
Well I think there needs to be more focus on moving jobs north and less focus on social housing down south.
Agreed.
Valid point re north:south.
Live between Sheffield and Leeds, market town and close to great riding.
You can buy a 1400sq ft house for 130k.
All depends where you want to live...
Well I think there needs to be more focus on moving jobs north and less focus on social housing down south.
There we ALWAYS be lower paid jobs "down south", which won't support purchasing or renting family homes at market rate, jobs that can not be moved.
Anyway, I came back to this thread to say, that now time has passed and we can see what is actually being done in the wake of the disaster, that I have changed my mind… Corbyn was out of order for mixing up the idea of an appropriate response with the problem of empty properties. It wasn't the right time or place to brings this up, even if it's a valid concern. He was stirring things up at the wrong moment. It feels opportunistic in hindsight.
So my solution is:
You don't mention who pays for all the infrastructure Ed? You know all the roads and pavements, drains, sewers, street lights etc.
Anyway, I am aware that the next phases of house building in Southwater West Sussex and Cranleigh Surrey, have been reduced due to lack of demand. Not aware of other areas, but likely to be the same. This is on green belt BTW.