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Take away a persons ability to use their own common sense.
The greatest issue is that common sense is really not that common.
The sooner a child grasps and realises things in life the sooner alot of things click.
Sat in a classroom might not always help that happen.
An interesting break can.
The greatest issue is that common sense is really not that common.
I agree, but most of the people I know that have common sense, aren't the academically minded.
In fact some of the most intelligent people I know have the least going on in their head.
Quite agree Russ, never said it was linked to intelligence but people's ability to think through the consequences of their actions from outside of their own micro bubble. As an observation of those with kids seem to get blinkered really quickly in life 😉
As another observation, it is very easy to confuse blinkered with focussed. 😉
And the law isn't really black and white, there is a grey bit in the middle)
Exceptional cicumstances allow for time off. A holiday is not exceptional circumstances.
Exceptional cicumstances allow for time off. A holiday is not exceptional circumstances.
I recon a big dump in the alps is an exceptional circumstance 😀
Why is it so hard to abide by basic rules of a school term?
Apologies if someone has already made the same point (I haven't read the whole thread) but getting a cheap holiday only works while there are only a few people pulling their kids out of school early. If everyone starts doing that to get a cheaper holiday, the tour operators and holiday home owners will soon get wise to it and prices will rise for the week before term ends. Then people will start missing two weeks before end of term...
Alternatively, if you have complete freedom, and families just go on holiday whenever they like during the school year, the school has the problem of managing the teaching of multiple random absences.
The government have had to come up with rules to take these decisions away from Head teachers, they realise teachers {in general} are not competent,trained or capable of making such huge far reaching complex decisions.
It seems blinkered and short sighted to me but observing the tripe spouted by teachers and their other halves on here.. perhaps it is best for now.
The point of education is that it leads to awakening. This might not be in the classroom but reinforced by early life experiences.
Things click sooner.
The government have had to come up with rules to take these decisions away from Head teachers, they realise teachers {in general} are not competent,trained or capable of making such huge far reaching complex decisions.
It seems blinkered and short sighted to me but observing the tripe spouted by teachers and their other halves on here.. perhaps it is best for now.
+1
Reduce the length of the summer holidays to a more reasonable 2 weeks and allow for 2 floating weeks to be taken in term time when required.
The productivity of the country wouldn't suffer as much as it currently does and holiday companies would be less able to make blanket periods of high prices. Floating mid term breaks which varied significantly between regions would also help.
they realise teachers {in general} are not competent,trained or capable of making such huge far reaching complex decisions.
3/10 please try harder.
The point of education is that it leads to awakening. This might not be in the classroom but reinforced by early life experiences.he point of education is that it leads to awakening. This might not be in the classroom but reinforced by early life experiences.
True enough.
Why do schools need so many long holidays?
It wouldnt happen as our children would be held to ransom if any reform was attempted. By who?
Yep.
The point of education is that it leads to awakening. This might not be in the classroom but reinforced by early life experiences.
You know that with about 12 weeks of allotted holiday time over the year it should be entirely possible to do both?
Reduce the length of the summer holidays to a more reasonable 2 weeks and allow for 2 floating weeks to be taken in term time when required.
Does that include the staff? Have you seen the retention figures for teaching staff?
Mikewsmith most of those you are trying to take time off in conjunction with other parents at your company, first come first served on holiday requests, paying for (expensive) holiday clubs to look after your child for the rest.
Do you have a child leaving at home who cant be left alone yet?! Or a partner that doesnt work
"Theres not enough holiday to take our kids on holiday during the holidays. Lets make the holidays shorter." Good work guys.
Does that include the staff? Have you seen the retention figures for teaching staff?
So they're only in it for the holidays? See comment above about competent management.
So do you expect them just to do it for the love when 40% of newly trained teachers leave within a year? I dont see how wanting to maintain terms and conditions correlates with competance but if you want to let me know great.
I'll tell you another fact. In Finland a world leader in education they attract teachers from the top 20% of graduates. In the UK its the bottom 20%. I wonder why?
There are only 3 of us at out company, previously it just worked out.
It seems that millions of parents can sort out how to work within the system, others seem to think that the rules shouldn't apply and that school is an optional extra. It's probably stuff that should come with the how you make a baby manual and things you should consider.
My mother was finally grateful when she retired as a teacher, having a dad who was a farmer meant there was a really tiny amount of time that family holidays could be taken. We managed and made the most of it.
So do you expect them just to do it for the love when 40% of newly trained teachers leave within a year? I dont see how wanting to maintain terms and conditions correlates with competance but if you want to let me know great.
When businesses suffer with retention issues you look at the range of motivational and management levers. I'm talking about managerial competence, not teaching competence.
The 6 week summer holiday is a relic of times past, where it should be resigned to.
It seems that millions of parents can sort out how to work within the system, others seem to think that the rules shouldn't apply and that school is an optional extra
Or maybe different people have different priorities and ideas about what they want their kids to learn and get out of life?
I like education. I'm all for it. I just don't think it all comes from books and classrooms.
My mother was finally grateful when she retired as a teacher, having a dad who was a farmer meant there was a really tiny amount of time that family holidays could be taken. We managed and made the most of it.
That sounds awful. I can see why you would want others to suffer the same fate. 😀
I like education. I'm all for it. I just don't think it all comes from books and classrooms.
And you have 12 weeks to do just that.
they realise teachers {in general} are not competent,trained or capable of making such huge far reaching complex decisions.
3/10 please try harder.
And then you start agreeing with me a page later 😀
In Finland a world leader in education they attract teachers from the top 20% of graduates. In the UK its the bottom 20%.
It would be very interesting to see how many teachers from the uk would qualify in Finland.
Until we start attracting the top tier of graduates I don't think we can trust drop outs of the education system to make such BIG decisions..
A head teacher cannot be trusted to decide if a pupil can take a family holiday. I have heard Doctors will be next.. sick notes will have to be checked by government officials before being approved.
When businesses suffer with retention issues you look at the range of motivational and management levers.
Would cutting holiday entitlement be one of them?
It would be very interesting to see how many teachers from the uk would qualify in Finland.
It would. No idea what their training is like. This country has too few teachers in certain areas and a drastic shortage of good teachers across the board.
Doesnt mean I agree with you that deciding if taking Tarquin and Matilda skiing is a big decision though. Any person with an ounce of common sense can see that its just a holiday and is no more life enriching than taking Tyler and Chardonnay to Benidorm for a week.
Would cutting holiday entitlement be one of them?
You said that retention rates were low, I'm trying to make the point that better management may help to improve the situation. Reducing the length of the summer holiday would have many benefits to society as a whole, but is a separate although not wholly unrelated issue.
Yeah I reckon getting 5 year olds used to 4 weeks holiday a year would be a good start 😉
Could accelerate the curriculum to and get them out into the working world by 15...
Yeah I reckon getting 5 year olds used to 4 weeks holiday a year would be a good start
12-2 was 10 last time I looked.
You said that retention rates were low, I'm trying to make the point that better management may help to improve the situation.
I asked what these "management levers" you talked about might be?
I asked what these "management levers" you talked about might be?
There is a need to better understand motivations and ensure that staff are motivated and rewarded appropriately.
A viable combination of carrot and stick will be required, but will vary across schools and staff - hence the need for better managers who haven't been promoted into managerial positions because they were good teachers.
Levers could include, but are not limited to
Better pay
Reduced admin
More/less responsibility
More flexible hours / part time working
Development opportunities (training, sabbaticals etc)
Pretty much similar to any other medium to large size business.
Of course this all needs to be supported with an appropriate performance management system.
It's really not rocket surgery.
All those would cost money and as such wont happen.
Could you explain what appropriate performance management would look like?
All those would cost money and as such wont happen.
Needs to be offset against the costs of poor retention rates, and if they are that bad, it shouldn't be difficult to make the case on cash savings alone.
Their children so do whatever they want with their education but try not to blame others.
As for the school what's the big deal if parents want to take their children for holidays?
Affect school rating? Then let the parents know if they take their children out beyond certain number of days then they can sit for exam as independent candidate problem solved.
Well I'd agree that long term structural change would improve the teachers lot BUT that would cost a lot and it would also not stop parents thinking that their precious cheaper holiday is worth more than their kids education.
A great education can give you 40 or 50 years of awesome holidays.
what is rocket surgery?
Did you mean rocket science, or brain surgery?
good management techniques, all of which were no doubt taken from the 1990's big book of management, I think you will find leadership theory has moved on a fair way since then!
Have you heard of austarity?
A great education can give you 40 or 50 years of awesome holidays.
Unless you have kids. 😉
I always find the fundamental problem is that because everyone attended school , they all think they are an expert on education and how schools work.
PGCE students are always stunned in their first placement at how different school is when you are not a pupil!
Have you heard of austarity?
Yeah their first album was good but the second one was a let down.
Unless you have kids.
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think you will find leadership theory has moved on a fair way since then!
Similar stuff, different labels. But tbh, I'd settle for solid 90s management as an improvement of the current situation.
What is your experience of the current situation? Also could you tell me what this proper performance management would look like.
In Finland a world leader in education they attract teachers from the top 20% of graduates. In the UK its the bottom 20%.
Money doesn't appear to be the motivator either, as English and Finnish teachers appear to have pretty much identical salaries.
http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/education/teachers-salaries_teachsal-table-en