I don't think that the FSA have signed the convention, have they?
Plus I didn't condone, I understood the motivation of the people doing it.
Turkey aren't helping their tourist trade -
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Strangely, under the Geneva conventions, ejected pilots are considered "shipwrecked" and therefore are protected. I guess there's an open question if an aircrew that is shot down during a mission attacking some forces can really expect the people they were attacking to shrug their shoulders when they're on a more equal footing (or even disadvantaged dangling under a parachute canopy).
Strangely, under the Geneva conventions, ejected pilots are considered "shipwrecked" and therefore are protected.
Yep. Paratroopers are not afforded the same protection for fairly obvious reasons!
An ejected Argentinian pilot landed in the middle of the British soldiers he was bombing. As I understand it, he remained unharmed (despite the use of napalm by the Argentinians). If the Uk can do it, then so can everyone else.
Oh, and RT has footage of one of the pilots supposedly dead on the ground. Can't say the Turkmen militia have really gone out of their way to avoid reprisals from the Russians.
Turkey aren't helping their tourist trade -
Russian tourists have a reputation for being horrible, so maybe there are some dry eyes? Big chance for Greece to take advantage of the folk not going to Egypt or Turkey 🙂
My gran made a cuppa for a German pilot who bailed out during The Battle of Britain while waiting to be captured.
That Putin is a cheeky chappie, thinking he can do what he wants. How they got away with the shooting down of and then blocking crash investigaters gaining acces to the passenger jet in Ukraine the whole time using the "shaggy"defence of it wasn't me, without being brought to book.
The russian pilots were warned many times, and if you make threats in such situations you have to be prepared to carry them out otherwise be prepared to have the piss taken even more.
[quote=wrecker ]An ejected Argentinian pilot landed in the middle of the British soldiers he was bombing. As I understand it, he remained unharmed (despite the use of napalm by the Argentinians). If the Uk can do it, then so can everyone else.
Strange way to put it, as if the British are uncivilised, and nobody should behave worse than us. Back in the real world, I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.
zippykona ... nice anecdote
She did piss in his tea mind you.
zippykona ... nice anecdote
+1.
I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.
Strange way to look at it, that we should somehow consider ourselves better than everyone else.
Puts me in mind of a section from Derek Robinson's fantastic Piece Of Cake, where the pilots are discussing whether or not to shoot enemy pilots after they've bailed out, the consensus was that it's unsporting and there's no point - "after all, he's not going to climb back in again, is he?".
TBH, I suspect they have as much knowledge of the Geneva convention as we do of the rules behind Mornington Crescent. They've been killing members of the FSA for weeks/months, it's hardly a surprising outcome if the pilots have been killed the moment they come face to face without a plane and 6000m between them.
Like the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you don't need to support or condone the act to understand why it happened.
My gran made a cuppa for a German pilot who bailed out during The Battle of Britain while waiting to be captured.
TBH, in my view there's a difference between a war fought by volunteers and a war fought by conscripts. Your gran and the pilot probably both realized this.
You've read chewkw posts before right?
And every time a little bit of my inner sheeple zombie maggot dies.
Our forces are proffesionals bound by laws and rules so I expect them to do the right thing where as most of the Syrian rebel forces are driven by hate so shooting pilots who have ejected is no real suprise.
Apparently the polish airmen who flew with the RAF in WW2 would go after the German airman who bailed out after shooting them down, again motivated by hate.
Like the Charlie Hebdo attacks, you don't need to support or condone the act to understand why it happened.
Would there be the same understanding if our own people behaved like it I wonder. There was recently considerable hand wringing when the UK govt killed a known terrorist.
[quote=wrecker ]
I'd be surprised and upset if the British harmed a downed pilot, but surprised if those in Syria didn't.
Strange way to look at it, that we should somehow consider ourselves better than everyone else.
Why is it strange? Would you expect the opposite? Yet my expectations appear to have been confirmed.
If signing up to and complying with the Geneva Convention makes us better than people who haven't then yes I do consider us to be better - no other superiority is implied.
Strange way to look at it, that we should somehow consider ourselves better than everyone else.
Not everyone just them
You really think its strange for a U person to view themselves and our brave boys amongst the best trained and most moral in a killing zone?
Would you prefer it and find it more realistic if folk could see no difference between our boys and ISIS troops?
Nope. I'm against double standards is all.
Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.
It's not understandable, it's deplorable (hence the geneva conv) and no attempt to normalise it should be considered OK.
The Alexadra Blackman case shows we do hold our soldiers to account for their actions although there's a vocal group of people who feel he should never have been tried and was serving his country to the best of his ability under difficult circumstances.
To understand is not to forgive, as far as these guys shooting at the airman or any other 'war zone' actions against a foe is concerned.
Good comparison. Considering the manner in which the enemy behaved (i.e; no rules whatsoever), is it right or fair that Sgt Blackman is in prison?
If it is, when should we expect to see some Taliban in the Hague?
It's a war zone. Dog eat dog, kill or be killed. Hunger, tiredness frustration, emotions running all over the place.
And yet, from the comfort of our chairs, in our centrally heated homes and or offices that are no where near the war zone, we can pontificate about the rules of engagement, how it needs to be fair, how [b] [i]we[/i][/b] are so much better behaved than them, how [b][i]our[/i][/b] morals are superior to anyone else's.
And yet [b][i]we[/i][/b] still wage war, commit atrocities and celebrate victories...
How much more bullshit can be spread about over an Internet forum?
[i]If it is, when should we expect to see some Taliban in the Hague? [/i]
The problem that 'we' have is that we don't recognise a lot of these groups as 'soldiers' or representing a state/government so we can't use 'war crime'/Geneva Convention laws to prosecute them.
If we don't recognise them as soldiers, then the geneva convention doesn't apply. They can be summarily shot as spies or mercenaries, quite legitimately.
Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.
I think when you engage in an asymmetrical war you have to accept that the MO from both sides will be very different.
I understand why some folk join the army, love the Queen and country and will kill for it as an example. Its understandable
Do you think i support it now ?Finding something understandable is not condoning it
[i]They can be summarily shot as spies[/i]
How does that work?
Spies are a bit cloak and dagger, not turning a purloined 4x4 with a 40mm ack-ack gun strapped to the back capturing large amounts of territory within the country of their birth?
I can understand using 'civilian' law but spies have to act for another state during a time of war don't they?
A bit hazy but it's to do with "lawful combatants". Prisoner of war status only applies if there are certain conditions. Mercenaries for example do not qualify (which many of the Daesh bods, being foreign could be classified as). Also representing a state is another.
I seem to remember that this had something to do with the US/UK military types and east germans always wearing uniforms when crossing the border too.
[quote=wrecker ]Nope. I'm against double standards is all.
Well given the Brits demonstrably don't kill downed pilots and the Syrian militia do, then I'm not sure where the double standard is.
Somehow it's "understandable" for a certain group of people to act in a way that we would not like to see our own people behave.
I didn't even say it was understandable, I just said I wasn't surprised. Are you surprised? If so, then you need to wake up. I'm simply being realistic here - nothing to do with British superiority.
There are players in the region who have stoked destability in Syria. I really hope the act of the pilots doesn't bite Turkey.
The UK wouldn't down any Russian incursion or there would be a real long hard think before it would be considered.
Those US heavy weaponary too. Hmmmm.
Turkey might feel abit of pain over this I.e have to allow a strike back.
Quid pro quo.
No you didn't aracer. Am I surprised that these people act like this? Absolutely not!
My point is that if anyone finds it in any way acceptable or understandable, then they are in no position to judge our own people when/if they behave comparably which is very rare, or even the americans which is somewhat less rare.
One thing is for sure, those Turkmen are going to get battered for a good while.
The Turkmen locals will be getting some serious Russian payback, C4 news just showed them using a TOW on a rescue helicopter.
then they are in no position to judge our own people when/if they behave comparably
WHat?
Surely we all expect "our troops"* to behave better than ISIS?
* any civilised professional army to have higher standards than a rag tag bunch of mercenaries [ except the A team though ]
I tend to agree with your broader point that those of us who will never serve in the arena are probably not the ones on the best position to judge those who do and have.
Madness from Turkey. There will be consequences to hurt them financially and their aspirations in Syria. Russian aircraft over Turkey for a maximum of 17 seconds as per trace shown earlier. It could very well be the missile struck the aircraft when it was back over Syria.
So my guess ?
Turkey warned very strongly by NATO behind closed doors not to do this again
Russia to act financially against Turkey. Already seeing headlines that Russian tour companies are cancelling booked holidays. Russian tourist spending is very important to Turkey
Russia to up rhetoric that Turkey has been supporting IS by turning blind eye to estimated 50,000 people who've crossed the border to join and have been buying IS oil
Russia to substantially up attacks on Turkmen
Russia to up support for PKK
Russia to supply anti aircraft weaponry to Assad to target Turkish aircraft conducting airstrikes in Syria mainly against the PKK
Chances of agreement between coalition Russia and Iran over Syria and IS look pretty slim now
Pilots / Spies. The key thing here is whether you are in uniform. A pilot in uniform is not a spy. He can be shot if he's considered a threat, that leaves a lot of room for interpretation. If a pilot is trying to escape or indeed if a rescue is mounted the ground forces can easily take the view he is a threat now or in the future if he makes it back to Syria to attack them again.
The group responsible for shooting the Russian airmen as they bailed out were neither Turkish, nor ISIL. The same group used a US supplied TOW missile to down a Russian rescue helicopter.
It's fair to say that armed militias aren't trained in the intricacies of rules of engagement in the same way that and nation state's own forces would be.
Just prior to the Syrian civil war, Russia signed a treaty with Assad granting them use of a naval base and allowing them access to the Mediterranean. The Russians want Assad in place as a friendly power in the region. To this end, they're bombing anyone opposing Assad, regardless of whether they're ISIL or they belong to the ragtag group of militias the US is equipping and paying to take on ISIL and/or Assad.
China have been strangely silent on this, especially in the wake of their condemnation of the execution of a Chinese hostage. One hopes that given their economic ties to Russia, they'll be a voice of reason.
The same can't be said for Russia. The Russians are not going to kick off.
Russia has fought wars in Ukraine and Georgia recently, as well as within Russia. They're not shy about fighting wars - it's an authoritarian state with the economy in trouble. War is an attractive exercise!
thisisnotaspoon - Member
Ya, but they are flown by Turkish ...
Alrite, let's keep the discussion away from outright racism.
There you go it's all about race again ... Bet you see more skin colours than I do.
Ya, in term of flying hours I bet the Russian has more experience then the Turks put it this way.
Therefore, I want to see SU-35/34 vs F-16/18/etc ... shoot down a couple of F-16/18 perhaps just to balance things up?
I think they are all pussy footing to be honest.
monkeyfudger - Member
You've read chewkw posts before right?
Good innit! I know I make sense unlike the supporters of JC (not Jesus Christ). 😆
[b]edit: slight hijack ... I think someone should start printing/wearing t-shirt with the slogan "JC(not Jesus Christ)" or "JC =/= Jesus Christ" at the Labour conference or something ... that should be funny. [/b] 😆
Good innit! I know I make sense.
On a planet a long time ago, far, far away, perhaps.
Meanwhile, on planet Earth, not so much.
CountZero - Member
Good innit! I know I make sense.On a planet a long time ago, far, far away, perhaps.
Meanwhile, on planet Earth, not so much.
Where? Mars? 
What PM says is spot on.
Also Turkey will be swapped with migrants from the East by the looks of things. Ya, Turkey should try it on China too I say ...
chewkw - JC(not Jesus Christ)
Please stop doing that. It's not funny. No, not even a little bit.
Russia has fought wars in Ukraine and Georgia recently, as well as within Russia. They're not shy about fighting wars - it's an authoritarian state with the economy in trouble. War is an attractive exercise!
The Ukraine and George don't have proper air defense networks. The Russians will end up arming the Kurds as there has been talk of a Kurdish-Assad alliance for months. It will only kick off if the Turkish have the balls to try and stop Russia from cementing a Kurd-Assad alliance.
Personally I don't think they are that stupid - whilst the Russian economy is in a state that isn't conducive to war, I do think Putin is playing a very clever game with Turkey. Nor do I think that Putin is stupid enough to start a proper shooting match unless Turkey calls their bluff, the Russians can win their objectives in the region without ever firing a shot at the Turks. The Turks know it as well, hence they ran like children to Nato for advice after they threw their toys out of the pram instead of apologizing to Putin.
