Genine question - assume you find yourself lucky enough to be the barrister assigned to defend one of these two, and they spout the shite they have - do you have to run with it in court? It'd be kind of embarrassing!Essentially yes. Barristers don't really care though - their job isn't to worry about that, they are there to avoid innocent people going to jail, that due process is followed, and the best arguments are made (don't forget the cops arrested someone else before these two!).
they just spend over 4 hrs yesterday in deliberations before a brief spell this morning... the case was actually fairly circumstantial. Unananimous against both so not that hard - but no actual evidence who cut it down.I loved the judge thanking the jury for their hard work. I'm going to assume they'd made they minds up in the first 10 minutes of the trail and the hard work was mostly involved with staying awake and/or not laughing.
You likely to go to prison for chopping down a tree?
They've both been remanded (one of them since December), and sentencing is not till July so they will be spending some time inside. Not really any precident - but if people making policital points get prison for throwing paint at stuff or destroying statues I think unlikely to walk free after the sentencing hearing.
I'd hope the continual refusal to admit guilt will lead to a more robust punishment.Well the way sentence "discounting" works for an early guilty plea you essentially get 50% more if you go all the way through a trial. On top of that "genuine remorse" (or lack there of) is a sentencing consideration.
Yeah the guy remanded at Christmas is the one who grassed the other one in, and then seems to have had a bad "accident", so was locked up in part for his own protection!The least surprising verdict since Wagatha Christie case. I was surprised to see both held in remand though, and one of them having been on remand since Christmas.
Their ‘dog ate my homework’ style defence would suggest they’re not the sharpest tools in the box
That would be their chainsaw.
There is to be a pre-sentencing report commissioned for one of the defendants. I’m erring on their being some not-yet diagnosed medical diagnosis put forward suggesting that he didn’t appreciate the gravity of cutting down the tree. That being the position, do they then effectively concede guilt?
Or do they look into effect on family if he is incarcerated?
There is to be a pre-sentencing report commissioned for one of the defendants. I’m erring on their being some not-yet diagnosed medical diagnosis put forward suggesting that he didn’t appreciate the gravity of cutting down the tree. That being the position, do they then effectively concede guilt?
Or do they look into effect on family if he is incarcerated?
Pre-sentencing reports are normal for anyone likely to be sent to jail for the first time, or for the umpteenth time! They cover all sort of background. Mental health, learning difficulties, family circumstances, networks (i.e. do they hand around with other dodgy folk or have a job and positive community ties), understanding of their crime, likelihood of reoffending, options for community sentences (e.g. are they fit for unpaid work, do they live somewhere suitable for tags etc). If someone had recognised / diagnosed mental health conditions then psychiatrist may also be commissioned to write report etc.
but if people making policital points get prison for throwing paint at stuff or destroying statues I think unlikely to walk free after the sentencing hearing
Well, we’ll see. It will be interesting if they get less than someone damaging a picture frame.
Imagine being banged up with a bunch of real wrong 'uns and having to admit you're inside for chopping down a tree.
I’m really not sure the story is the headline grabbing top of the news feature it has become.
Whilst clearly this was an act of unfathomable vandalism, the country is blighted the length and breadth with anti social behaviour stories that are truly life affecting to people trapped in the world they are surrounded by.
This is really just a middle class ‘tut’ in comparison.
The absolute state of them.
You shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but who the actual **** thinks that rocking up at court - or indeed, anywhere - sporting a suit and tie and a balaclava is a smart move? You're on trial for vandalism, not auditioning for the Blue Man Group.
You shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but who the actual **** thinks that rocking up at court - or indeed, anywhere - sporting a suit and tie and a balaclava is a smart move? You're on trial for vandalism, not auditioning for the Blue Man Group.
People who are worried that mountain bikers are going to judge them on their appearance?
there is a weird anomaly where they cannot be photographed inside the court building but they can be photographed going in.
but if people making policital points get prison for throwing paint at stuff or destroying statues I think unlikely to walk free after the sentencing hearing
Not necessarily destroying, or even slightly damaging, statues, according to the current Labour government.
Although it does depend on whose statue it is. God forbid anyone should be overcome with patriotic zeal and climb the statue of the greatest Briton that has ever walked the face of the earth.
Apparently that makes you a "thug". Which must make sycamore choppers almost murders.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/34824357/churchill-statue-thugs-face-jail/
"Currently only demonstrators who cause criminal damage to the monument can be prosecuted".
but who the actual **** thinks that rocking up at court - or indeed, anywhere - sporting a suit and tie and a balaclava is a smart move?
I assume they took them off inside otherwise it would be a brave move. As poly says inside the court there are restrictions on photos with it normally still relying on court artists. As such it does kinda make sense to hide your face when going into court if, I dunno, you have committed a crime which will get national publicity and lots of people hurling abuse at you. Especially if you seem hopeful of getting let off (if not then plead guilty for shorter sentence). Obviously undermined by the papers grabbing all the photos from social media instead but its not a completely stupid plan.
I remember a time when prisoners being escorted from a Black Maria to the Old Bailey were given a blanket to cover their heads.
I don't think that happens anymore.
but some of the utter emotional nonsense is ridiculous.
Sez someone who knows to the penny the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. 🖕🏼
I'm disgusted by the felling of that Yew. These are precious with medicinal properties, berries for the birds, evergreen thus providing shelter for all sorts of beasties all year round.
Yes, their clippings are harvested for a particular cancer treatment, but beyond that, the deliberate destruction of a tree that’s as old as the creation of England as a kingdom is shameful. He should be subject to a compulsory purchase order, evicted from the land, and the farm turned over to a managed nature reserve, with the money put back into its management, and nothing given to him, as a fine. I’d like to think that neither him, nor any of his family benefits from this act
They’re hardly going to throw resources at a tree worth zero.
It’s got a significant value, definitely not ‘zero’. Wake up at the back there, and at least try to pay attention!
Mature trees are worth a lot of money
Mature trees are worth a lot of money
Not that much really. Media is quoting £600K but in truth its far less.
https://felling.uk/calculator/tree-value
There's something wrong in the calculation, or it's for the timber or something.
I'm not sure which method(s) they used to value this tree, but look up the CAVAT method for example.
I'm not sure which method(s) they used to value this tree,
Probably £700-£800 cubic meter. Of clear timber that is , though looking at that tree its short and mostly branchwood
What about "amenity value"?
The owner of the land is the National Trust, and I'm sure they could make a decent argument about the number of visitors choosing to visit in part due to this particular vista - it had to be one of the most photographed trees in the region.
And the National Park might say it's likely to lose out on parking revenue well into the future.
One of the modules I’ve been studying this year has a fair bit about ecosystem services that trees provide, a selection are:
- Supporting services: nutrient cycling, soil formation, primary production, habitat provision
- Regulating services: climate regulation, flood regulation, water purification
- Cultural services: spiritual, aesthetic, educational, recreational
- Provisioning services: food production, water, wood and fibre, fuel
each one of these can have a £ value calculated against it.
No direct experience of calculating CAVAT but can't see it's formula being so easy to follow here.
What use is a fine in the hundreds of thousands in this situation anyway? It's not a developer making a calculated decision for greed with financial assets to their name.
The new rules that did away with upper limits on fines a few years ago also included custodial sentencing but think it rather had developers, landowners and loose contractors in mind.
No direct experience of calculating CAVAT but can't see it's formula being so easy to follow here.
What use is a fine in the hundreds of thousands in this situation anyway? It's not a developer making a calculated decision for greed with financial assets to their name.
The new rules that did away with upper limits on fines a few years ago also included custodial sentencing but think it rather had developers, landowners and loose contractors in mind.
Sorry just to be clear CAVAT was just an example method of valuing trees that takes more into account that trunk circumference x height. It looks at the amenity value, health of the tree etc. I don't know if it's appropriate to this exact tree.
Dyna-Ti's previously linked calculator only goes up to 35m, not 45m as per the tree in question. But at 35m x 1m trunk it gives £175 as the value.
Well a quick google shows that to buy a sycamore with 8cm trunk costs £150 so there's no way that even just 'a tree' with a trunk that's more than 10 times thicker would really be valued at only £25 more. Then you have to factor in the location, amenity value of it, etc.
Well whatever it costs commercially, it sure aint £600K And TBH its not that great a timber.
Well whatever it costs commercially, it sure aint £600K And TBH its not that great a timber.
Yeah I'm sure that's true, but as far as I'm aware the £600K is referring to the value of the tree as a living entity, not the timber.
Probably £700-£800 cubic meter. Of clear timber that is , though looking at that tree its short and mostly branchwood
Mona Lisa - just a bit of canvas and a few quids' worth of paint.
Which is the point I was trying to make on the previous page. The tree couldn't be replaced, so priceless.
The tree couldn't be replaced, so priceless.
Er... isn't it currently regrowing.
Sure that will take a while, but far from 'irreplaceable'
Er... isn't it currently regrowing.
And if it didn't, I've got a bunch of (unwanted) seedlings in my garden, anyone who wants one can have one.
Of course it was a moronic act of vandalism, but it's only a tree (and a not very old sycamore at that). We had to get a similar one cut down in our garden a few years back, as it was pushing a boundary wall over.
but it's only a tree (and a not very old sycamore at that).
I think that’s more or less what the perpetrators said, wasn’t it?
We had to get a similar one cut down in our garden a few years back, as it was pushing a boundary wall over.
What boundary wall ........the one which defines the outer limits of your empire and the marauding Picts?
You are Hadrian and I claim my 5 denarius
(and a not very old sycamore at that)
Fast growing too.
Apparently between 3'-5'/year. So to get back to it's 50' height, we're looking at minimum of 10 years.
Sorry your child has been run over & killed but you can have another one, it'll grow quite quickly, probably be over 5ft within 15yrs, so even bigger than the one you've just lost.
CAVAT is a pretty good tool for an average tree in an average location and a good starting point
This isn't a particularly average tree in terms of emotion and revenue generation, so some sort of multiplier is required and that is harder to quantify. A tree in Swansea recently totalled £420k fine between developer, his company and felling contractor.
In basic material values, the tree at best is £200 for firewood market, 1 year old sycamore trees are about 35p each and you'd plant a handful with a bit of follow up care to get one standard. The labour outstrips any timber outcome.
So yeah, I estimate somewhere between £150 and a million quid 😄
(and a not very old sycamore at that)
Fast growing too.
Apparently between 3'-5'/year. So to get back to it's 50' height, we're looking at minimum of 10 years.
It was at least 150 years old according to wiki? (and it says 45m not 50 feet, could be a typo though)
CAVAT is a pretty good tool for an average tree in an average location and a good starting point
This isn't a particularly average tree in terms of emotion and revenue generation, so some sort of multiplier is required and that is harder to quantify. A tree in Swansea recently totalled £420k fine between developer, his company and felling contractor.
In basic material values, the tree at best is £200 for firewood market, 1 year old sycamore trees are about 35p each and you'd plant a handful with a bit of follow up care to get one standard. The labour outstrips any timber outcome.
So yeah, I estimate somewhere between £150 and a million quid 😄
There's some discussion of the valuation by a barrister in the second half of this (and sentencing in the first half)
and it says 45m not 50 feet, could be a typo though
I'm kind of guessing, though I noticed the 45m bit posted above, but thats the equivalent of a 15story building, and its nowhere near the height of one of those.
But it does look to be about the height of a 5 story building, at least averaging from the pic on the above YT vid
and it says 45m not 50 feet, could be a typo though
I'm kind of guessing, though I noticed the 45m bit posted above, but thats the equivalent of a 15story building, and its nowhere near the height of one of those.
But it does look to be about the height of a 5 story building, at least averaging from the pic on the above YT vid
Yeah probably somebody mixed up m with ' on the measurements 🙄 either way it's still over 150 years old though
Anyway the reason i was coming back to the thread, looks like this two were real assets to the community:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8v8leg97eo
Various histories seem to exist, but surely someone could have counted the rings by now!
Anyway the reason i was coming back to the thread, looks like this two were real assets to the community:
Tbh I'm not entirely surprised, feeling an emotional attachment to a sycamore tree does sound gay.
And men who chop down trees are obviously proper geezers.
Frankly it all makes sense imo
The "you can do what you like" game.
Summer club rides mean I could be out Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. We also need marshalls for Tuesday TTs.
Appeal for TT marshalls tonight - I check if it's OK if I help out and get "you can do what you like". What I'd like is a simple "yes, that's fine" or "no, I'd to do X tonight".
Instead I feel like I've fallen into a trap and evidence will be used against me later.
The tree couldn't be replaced, so priceless.
Well it could... With a native tree rather than a non native, deliberately planted there to make the scenery look nice...
We were passing by on the way to Keswick earlier so went to take a look. There's a nice little memorial stone there. It was pleasantly busy. Lots of people walking along the wall proper with big packs.
