[Closed] Swimmerists - front crawl advice please...

Have a look at swim smooth.com

Go for coaching, I was taught for a very long time as a kid, so it just comes naturally now.

+1 swimsmooth.

You're probably not breathing properly (and going hypoxic?) if you need to stop after ~5 lengths.
The swimsmooth stuff is really good, IMO.

What I was taught*, if you concentrate on your down-arm, the one that's under water, and visualise its correct path through the water, your up-arm naturally adopts the motion you describe - pausing slightly to reach forward with your fingertips as it transitions from up-arm to down-arm and begins its own pull through the water.

Then, you just need to get your breathing right. It's that, more than anything, that allows you to keep going, I think, and learning to breathe off the top of your lungs. You need to find a beat that suits you - every other stroke, or whatever, and whether it's always on the same side or alternating, which just comes with practice and fitness.

* I was 7 at the time so might be talking bolx.

Obviously it is all about technique but for me the tip about breathing (which I heard when watching my little girls in their swimming lessons) is the most pertinent – best shown in pictures.

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

Are they going slowly or effortlessly?

As the others have said... SwimSmooth and coaching.

Annie who helped create the swim smooth app has just started coaching again after maternity leave.

http://www.triswimcoaching.com/

The single biggest improvement I had was when someone explained that you breathe out underwater

I tried for months to work it out for myself using books and videos but i couldn't do more than a length. an hour with a good coach had me sorted and i was doing 3.8k within a few weeks. so as above, do that.

FWIW, i have heavy legs in the water and what helped was pushing my head down more than felt natural at first. I understand core strength is supposed to help here too but i never bothered with that. probably should.

Breathing also, start breathing out as soon as your head is in the water and make absolutely sure you've blown it all out before you take another breath. it takes more concentration than you'd think. especially true in open water

Im a pretty rubbish swimmer. i can still only swim at one speed and my stroke is pretty untidy, but from where i am now, i think i could probably get OK at it with a small amount of effort. When i started out, it felt like i'd never get even vaguely competent

get some tuition!

Dont mention a pause to the swim smooth guys!! It's one of their great bugbears - as I know as an over-glider (to use their terminology)

The single biggest reason for feeling puffed is breathing - or to be more precise exhaling. Again as key lesson that SS coach.

Paul and Adam are both stars IMO

As well as Swimsmooth you can try Total Immersion.

I use both, but IMO SS are more comprehensive and accept that we have different styles. TI is more one way (happens to suit me) and can lead to being an over-glider and having a pause in your stroke.

I still go back to TI drills to help timing.

Thanks folks - I am breathing out under water, but probably nowhere near enough by the sound of it.

I'll have a look at the website recommended too.

Thanks

A good warm up is the SS bubble, bubble breath drill - I do this for first 100m as a warm up

It assumes bilateral breathing but can be adjusted.

Breath one side, then consciously exhale fully saying bubble under water with two strokes then breathe again and repeat

If your legs are dropping then your stroke rate is probably too slow and the last thing you need is a pause in it.

Arms for swimming, legs for cycling.

One of the most important aspects to distance swimming, and one of the first things I learned, is to relax and only use the muscles you need. If you're tense, swimming with clenched teeth, etc. then you'll be out of puff after a few lengths.

A pause is a glide and your legs won't sink if you glide fully stretched. Things that make your legs sink:

Pushing down on the water while your arms are in front of your shoulders. People do this subconsciously to lift their head to breathe when you should just rotate your body and head to breathe.

They don't drive the arm forward as it enters the water but instead drive it down and forward thus lifting the body and sinking the legs. You drive the arm forward (that's above your head if you were standing), glide if you wish, then "catch", that means start the pull by dropping the hand and forearm as if you are reaching over a barrel. You pull yourself forward and avoid pushing down until the arm has pulled past your shoulder - from that point on downward push will lift your legs.

An inefficient leg kick, it needn't be fast or even particularly powerful, but it does need to lift the legs; so you kick from the hip - lie tummy on the floor and lift a leg a little, that's the start point for the kick, not when your legs are already sinking. Try a drill in which you concentrate on lifting the leg but make no effort to kick, then lift-kick. A four-beat kick should be adequate.

Breathing also, start breathing out as soon as your head is in the water and make absolutely sure you've blown it all out before you take another breath. it takes more concentration than you'd think. especially true in open water

Breathing was key for me. started out barely able to finish a 50m length without feeling like it might be my last! Exaggeration, but it always felt desperate, and I always needed a rest at the end of a length. Someone told me to concentrate on getting all my breath out before breathing in, and within a month, I was doing a mile with a "sprint" finish. when you get your breathing sorted, you can find your "jogging" pace, rather than your desperate dash pace, then you've got the brain space to concentrate on the actual stroke!

I tend to breathe out hard on the last stroke before the breath, rather than slow release. I think I think it helps with buoyancy, but no-one else seems to mention it.

I should be swimming more than I am - it's good physio for my shoulder. Hate indoor pools though! Roll on summer and Guildford lido opening and warmer water at The Quays in Mytchett.

Dont mention a pause to the swim smooth guys!! It's one of their great bugbears - as I know as an over-glider (to use their terminology)

As well as Swimsmooth you can try Total Immersion.

Bit of a generalisation, but "Total Immersion" places more emphasis on the gliding bit, while Swimsmooth seems more orientated to a tri crowd where speed is of the essence.

But if you're having problems doing more than 5 lengths without dying either one (or pretty much any other coaching) will be a massive improvement.

I second (or third) Total Immersion...changed me from a crap only-able-to-swim-a-length-without-being-exhausted swimmer to one who can swim in a relaxed style for as long as I want (within reason).
if your legs are sinking, it's possibly because your head is up/looking forward too much

I swam outdoors today over lunchtime and have done twice a week all Winter. An outdoor 50m pool heated to 27°C all year round.

An outdoor 50m pool heated to 27°C all year round.

27C? Yuk, that's far too hot!

27? that's a bit warm for actual swimming isn't it? Is it geothermally heated?

Too warm is a nice problem to have, though. Our local lido is heated to 12 degrees over the winter. I went over the cold snap and the chap said, "sorry, boiler's on full whack and 10°C is as high as it's going."

27+/-2 is the competition standard. Are you trying to tell us you've got too much insulation? 😉

12 degrees?

Wetsuits are mandatory for all Tri distances if it's below 14 degrees.

27+/-2 is the competition standard. Are you trying to tell us you've got too much insulation?

🙂

Didn't realise it was that high TBH. And BMI<22, probably lacking in insulation if anything!

Wetsuits now compulsory for all FINA open water events if the water temp is under 18 degrees! Pah blouses.

I did the French Olympic distance championships years back. They measured the temperature and declared no wetsuits - our toe tests said it was too cold. They they put us in the water and left us treading water for long enough for me to consider retiring there and then. By the time the klaxon went I was gibbering and never warmed up. I also crashed in to a kayak that was supposed to be directing us. I was very happy to get out of the water but then never really warmed up on the bike.

http://www.guildfordspectrum.co.uk/swimming/guildford-lido/cold-water-swimming-season/

In a wetsuit you may find you can swim comfortably for a while. For hardened swimmers you may wish to swim without a wet suit, this is your choice but a disclaimer must be signed.

Grrr!

(Brrr)

Wimps, South London Swimming Club swim throughout the year at Tooting Lido, no wetsuits.

After many (30-ish) years of not swimming properly, I returned to it last year (inspired by my daughter as she's learning to swim). I only get a chance to go once a week and, for entirely other reasons (not going in to here) which mean my exercise is deliberately limited (volume/intensity/duration), I can't do a great deal more.

I'm at the point where, because I'm so out of shape, I target 1k in 30 mins. But that's a 50/50 split of freestyle and breaststroke (alternate 25m lengths) with a general rest for 30-60 seconds each 100m.

I've definitely improved since I started up, and breathing was a key one. I've recently moved from every right hand stroke to alternate side breathing on every 4th stroke.

But now I want to get to the point of being able to swim freestyle only without the breaststroke recovery lengths (though my BS is prob no slower than my FS). Stroke isn't bad, though it is't consistent and it definitely tails off on the second length of my 100m blocks. I don't do the high elbow pull and think I might be reaching too far.

Is it worth getting coaching or am I forever going to be fighting against the inability to gain fitness?

I am breathing out under water, but probably nowhere near enough by the sound of it.

My technique is bad but pilates has really helped me focus and relax. I m going to get coaching as the next step. As above relax, focus and concentrate.

I was coached in The Shaw Method, which is Alexander Technique based, very similar to total immersion. For me, coaching made a word of difference and was money very well spent

alternate side breathing on every 4th stroke.

How TF do you manage that???

Is it worth getting coaching or am I forever going to be fighting against the inability to gain fitness?

Definitely. Swimming is 90% technique / 10% fitness.

How TF do you manage that???

Just in case I'm causing confusion:

Right arm out, breathe right hand side, right arm in, pull back.
Left arm out, in, pull back.
Right arm out, in, pull back
Left arm out, breathe left hand side, left arm in etc.

EDIT: those are in breaths. I breathe out all the time while my face is in the water. I also tend to look down rather than forward.

Definitely. Swimming is 90% technique / 10% fitness

Will look into it then. I'd forgotten just how much I love it.

I too find it very hard to slow down but What makes it worse is the footcramp i get after 1000metres or so.If I use my legs much, or do kick turns it gets worse.
Rotating my body is new to me but it takes the stress off my shoulders.
So you wait until your arm is below your shoulder level before you use any power with it?

I do a fair bit of swimming.
From watching other's technique the way to make it look effortless is to make sure you extend your pull through the water right down to your thigh. I see so many people who bring there arm out of the water for the recovery phase somewhere near the hip. I am guilty of this when I get tired or trying to put a sprint on.

So if I'm doing 60 lengths with a bad technique does that mean I'm using more energy than someone with good technique! 😀

So if I'm doing 60 lengths with a bad technique does that mean I'm using more energy than someone with good technique!

For a given speed, yes.

I first got into a pool 11 months ago and like you I could only manage a few lengths without being totally exhausted despite been pretty fit.

I got a couple of half hour lessons focusing in on slowing down my kick, constanly breathing ou****er and little bit on hand placement.

I was good enough to get me through a sprint tri and then progress to a 1.9Km in a half iron man.

But I wasn't really progressing so I went on a TI day workshop a few weeks ago. I tried to put everything in place at once and I sank.

This week I focussed on head position and saw some gains for the first time in months. I'm not sure the workshop was worth it but I'd definitely recommend getting some coaching or going to local masters class. In my area they cost the same as normal swimming session but you get some coaching thrown in

So you wait until your arm is below your shoulder level before you use any power with it?

At full extension your arm will be at or slightly below shoulder level already. You're as flat in the water as possible. When you start the movement you break the wrist and reach over the barrel - already you feel pressure on you hand and forearm that tells you are pulling forward (not pushing down!). Your elbow breaks and you feel the pressure on the forearm increase and you can pull harder - remember you're trying to pull your body forward not your hand through the water. Various hand paths are possible but the simplest is your hand roughly along the centre line of your body through the middle part of the movement.

I've shared a swim line with some really good swimmers and their hands come out of the water almost exactly where they start to pull - their hand hardly moves in relation to the water but their body advances by the distance the hand moves in relation to the body.

I'm sure there are better explanations on line than I'm coming up with. I've had a few coaches and I'm just passing on the instructions that worked for me rather than the ones that didn't - which is more down to me being a typically lousy traithlete swimmer than them being poor coaches.

Another vote for total immersion. It's all about technique and not power. If you're out of puff you're probably kicking too hard ( which in my case make **** all difference ) and trying to vapourise the water with your arms.

Various hand paths are possible but the simplest is your hand roughly along the centre line of your body through the middle part of the movement.

At the same time avoid crossing over the line - which on a practical level means aim your hand at the far end of the pool, but in reality move inwards to the centre line.

For those of you who have mastered it, how many stokes for a 25m length ? I used to be around 22 but got it down to around 19 with Art Of Swimming/Shaw Method stuff. I'm still quite slow at 25 mins for 1.5k, but it'll do for my level.

Swim 5-6k a week and as above technique? then it's fitness again. Swimsmooth is helpful but focus on breathing and an efficient pull stroke.
Suddenly it will all come right.
I swim quite differently in the ocean though.

My average from the tri club session last night was about 16 per 25m length according to my 920xt. Covered 1900m in about 40 minutes actual swimming time, including a few hundred metres of drills.

Anyone got tips for avoiding pool flu? Been useless with severe hayfever-like symptoms today, and always the same the day after a swim.

Really trying can get the stroke count down to 14 per length regularly about 17. Really enjoy when the coach wants us to breathe every ninth stroke.

The aqua notes on the raceclub website are worth a look:

[url= http://theraceclub.com/category/aqua-notes/ ]http://theraceclub.com/category/aqua-notes/[/url]

My vaguely helpful post is to get a little coaching. As with so many things, you'll be on such a steep learning curve that the first few lessons are mind blowing.

I knocked 30% off a 50m freestyle in a single 30 minute lesson. I'm a sinker. I'm confident swimming in waves etc, but (was) shockingly inefficient in a pool

I had the pleasure of watching the 6-8 year old school team this morning before my 3 year-old's lesson. Technique is a large part of it. They glide so effortlessly that when they do put the hammer down, it's like watching a shark!

I don't think any explanation in text will be as helpful as 1 or 2 lessons with someone watching your specific stroke and telling you wht can be improved.

iainc - Member
For those of you who have mastered it, how many stokes for a 25m length ? I used to be around 22 but got it down to around 19 with Art Of Swimming/Shaw Method stuff. I'm still quite slow at 25 mins for 1.5k, but it'll do for my level.

1:40 per 100 is pretty damn quick to me! I can't go much faster than 2 min per 100.

I'm confused on the strokes per length though. I assume you're counting both arms? My Garmin reports me on 11 per length which is only one arm. This is this morning's swim, for example, and was quick for me.

[url= https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1626362505 ]https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1626362505[/url]

Ben, yes, both arms. I used to be over an hour for 1500m and around 22 strokes per length, but went for Art of Swimming tuition which smoothed off the technique and made it a bit faster, for less effort !

Indeed, I'm gradually getting the hang of the putting less effort to go faster thing!

Quite counter intuitive for a runner 🙂