[Closed] Super fuels or additives?

No

I wouldn't bother, decent (non supermarket) fuel should be fine. I used to run super unleaded in tuned turbo jap cars to save them from blowing up (unsuccessfully).

Nice choice of motor btw.

Use Ultimate, warm engine up and acelerate hard and watch all the crap shoot out the back, best done on a quiet road.

Avoid the supermarket bio diesels.

No, the most beneficial thing you can do is make sure it gets a long drive (30 mins or more) and a bit throttle every few weeks to keep the DPF clear.

Honesty they design them to run faultlessly from the arid deserts of Africa to the Frozen wastes of the artic circle on anything you might be sold from a dirty plastic container in a Ugandan Petrol Station.

P.S. don't believe the hype - super market fuel isn't substandard, they don't have special shit refineries for supermarkets or super luxury ones for Esso or BP.

Use Ultimate, warm engine up and acelerate hard and watch all the crap shoot out the back, best done on a quiet road.

I had read this elsewhere, that doing that would clean it out over the course of a tank, then reverting to the standard stuff keeps things realtively unclogged as the BP additives are quite good vs virtually no cleaning additives in supermarket fuel.

Pjay I understand the base fuels are the same.

I had a JDM (imported) Prelude, it ran fine on regular but was smoother with better mpg on BP Ultimate. It gave so much of a better return it more than made up for the price difference.

my 1.9 diesel passat is smoother on normal shell rather than supermarket fuel. I add millers to each tank.

Avoid 'City diesel'.

I use Millers additive to clean out our cars but only as I have a couple of bottles that I picked up cheap ages ago and sorted a noisy injector on our old (RIP 🙁 ) 306 HDI. Does make a difference on the current HDI and TD4 landy but if I didn't have it I would just run some expensive diesel for a tank every now and then.

There's millions of posts about this. Yes most base fuel is the same for supermarkets as it is branded. However, the detergent packs are very different if used at all.. Branded will have good add packs, SM not so. Standard branded fuel is good for everyday, however when buying a car from unknown source, yes good to run a "super" for a tank or 2, cheaper than using a millers Esq after treatment. Don't throttle the thing, what it will do is dislodge evdrything in a oner blocking filters and knackering injectors.

To contradict my point about base fuels being the same, well they are not all made equal... Shell is the only one with a unique base gasoline for vpower! Supermarkets often hunt around for cheap sources of diesel from cargoes brought in all over the gaff, especially the bio content, one particular is bad at it, it causes all manner of issues. Bio,as far as the auto industry is concerned is work of the devil.

Also, don't just concentrate on the fuel, think about the oil, if you can be arrsed get it drained,cleaned, new filter and a high quality Fuchs, Castrol, Mobil filled in place, again, pervious advise on fuel quality, poor quality diesel (bio), has sludging tendencies, causing filter blocking, cavitation and viscosity [high].

BG244 has helped clear the crap from diesels I've had, usually improving the consumption as well as cleaning it up a bit for the MoT.

The fancy fuels can make a difference, based on an old work transit which used to smoke so badly it would obscure the white line from your mirrors, but a tank of BP Ultimate and you could make out the line.

Just to put some clarity around PJay's comments. Not all vehicles are designed to run from all corners of the world. All OEMS design a region specific model and will vary the components according to the typical fuel qualities found for that region.. That's not to say UK vs Germany, but Europe vs China vs Russia vs Africa.... What the OEMS will do is put different models through an endurance run to see its limitations, and also to programmer in a fail safe ecu setting depending on certain criteria, but agian it will be limited to individual component comparability.

Ok - I was going to run some Millers injector cleaner through, then some dpf cleaner - but the jury says just use a Ultimate?

Assuming ive run a couple of tanks of Ultimate through before its service in May, would I or would I not benefit from paying the dealer to perform an injector clean?

Ohhh K57 bought an Alfa !!

Ace !

Gertyerbikeinintyet ??

No idea about fuel, sorry, I always use Shell, ultimate in the car, normal deisel in the Van.. In MrsBouys car we run whatever we can find whilst out in it..

Doesn't help I know..

So, front wheel off or on ??

Stick with ultimate.

Injector cleaning, maybe depends on cost. You can get a car smoked analyzed for not a lot at a garage, run the fuel first then test it will cost peanuts..

You can gain all of that lost power and mpg back by having injectors that are spraying correctly. Believe or not, depending on all manner of variables, the spray pattern of an injector makes a massive difference to combustion characteristics.. Spray unevenly and you get a partial burn, hot spots etc etc..

using "super" diesel does make a difference on my T5 2.5ltr.

it accelerates better and MPG is improved. i was sceptical at first, but my mechanic told me to run it as it should potentially save me troubles later on. (i know faff all about the goings on of an engine).

You didn't see it bikebouy? Yes the roadbike went in easily wheels on. The 26er goes straight on, the 29er CAN but its size and weight makes the jiggling tricky, plus I found a car with roof rails (and a removable tow bar) so im going to put my rack on for dirty MTB duties.

(Here it is. Just for you, any excuse. )

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my mechanic told me to run it as it should potentially save me troubles later on. (i know faff all about the goings on of an engine).

I was to,d similar - the cleaning agents in the additives help prevent injectors clogging, deposits on the egr and er, other stuff.

I might rn Ultimate whenever work are paying 😀

252000 miles on my diesel. Never use the posh versions of fuel.

I use a mix of branded and supermarket fuels - just fill up wherever is near when I need to fill up, but probably works out slightly more branded than supermarket.

But, my car sits at motorway speeds for relatively long periods of time, rather than short, stop-start journeys...perhaps that makes a difference?

Awe mate that looks ace. I really hope you enjoy driving it and carting your bikes around in it.

I didn't see it no, clearly missed the thread whilst working or some other nonsense like riding, anyhoo I'm very pleased for you. Took a while to decide, tough decisions but I personally think you made the right choice.

#thumbsup

😀

Thanks Bikebouy - I do too. I've driven over 200 miles in it since Thursday and love it to bits already. To think - I could have been contemplating super fuels in a Volvo! 😕

K57 - that is bloody lovely! Very happy with my GT at the moment, but those 159 SW always have me nipping onto autotrader to see what's about.

Can't wait to see what the new Guilia looks like layer in the year.

FWIW I use shell or BP standard diesel most the time on my JTDm. Posh diesel didn't get enough extra miles per tank to warrant the extra cost. Shell / BP seems to get more miles per tank than supermarket fuel (yes I have a spreadsheet :-/)

All to do with the cetanes init!

This is quite an interesting read.
http://www.dieselcarmagazine.co.uk/features/the-extra-mile-april/

Every forth tank VPower should be enough to keep your injectors etc clean but you will notice the difference on the other three tanks in terms of engine smoothness and start up clatter and mpg!
As important is the oil changes, don't use cheap oil, use the proper spec oil or better if you can afford it and don't drive it like an old lady, drive it like it's meant to driven , 3500 rpm through each gear not 1200 short shift thinking your driving economically ( like my sister, it's bloody painful). 😆

Suggesy, I've seen that on the Alfaforums. It's going to be treated at AutoLusso in May, and although I did drive it like a cab driver after collection, I did an 80 mile round trip on Saturday in the style you described and got better mpg. The forum advice is low revs/high torque thought the gearbox I have is not good for the bearings.

I always drive my turbo diesels using the turbo to full efficient effect, not sure what the max torque band is on your engine but my old passat was something like 1200 rpm to 3500 rpm. I do the same in my van and get a pretty constant 55mpg plus clean injectors and no soot build up ( no dpf on it).
Yeah and don't try caning it in 1st and 2nd......all noise lots of fuel and shortened gearbox and clutch life.

This fuel cost a tenner more. I'll just be more gentle with loud pedal while subconsciously kidding myself on I'm taking part in a scientifically monitored, all variables standardised double blind test.

what do people think of 2 stroke oil in the diesel. not brave enough to try it myself.have read loads of positives

fallsoffalot - Member
what do people think of 2 stroke oil in the diesel. not brave enough to try it myself.have read loads of positives

don't. Whilst you may get a smoother engine for a while, it will be doing irreparable damage to the fuel system, filters, injectors, pumps.. If you have a new car and it fails and you try to warranty it, it will be found and refused!

I have run my Alfa GT (same engine) with standard BP diesel for a couple of years with no issue. When I 1st got it I tried the shell V power and also the millers additive, but no noticeable difference in consumption or performance, about 1-2 MPG difference between all 3 over several fills.

I did have to clean the EGR soon after I got it, but I put it down to whatever the previous owner used, no problems since.

not trying that then even if its an old 2004 tdci cmax

I switched to BP Ultimate or Shell V power diesel in my 10 year old van about 18 months ago, really noticed the difference, seem to come alive again, runs smoother and better mpg. Worth the difference per litre to me.

2 stroke in diesels an old wives tail.....

dont believe in premium fuel but i do believe in non supermarket fuel - except asda - their fuel seems to not cause my car to run like a bag of shit(lumpy and hunting at idle) and get consistantly lower mpg on a brim to brim average - like tescos /sainsburys city diesel

seem to come alive again

The van or the road?

Try changing your wheels too

So - the conclusion is:

a) an older high mileage car feels the impact of a "clean" via additives, use of premium fuel or a mechanical intevention

b) Branded fuel is cleaner and likely to result in lesser build up of deposits / better running of the engine

c) Newer cars are less affected - because they aren't as dirty at the point of intervention.

Common sense then...

sorry for the hijack but quick question to Sui....seeing as he seems to have a lot of knowledge on this...
whats the best fuel to use on a petrol engine?
most of the time we fill up using supermarket stuff as its the closets but every now and then the car will get the branded stuff (either shell or bp)

sorry for the hijack but quick question to Sui....seeing as he seems to have a lot of knowledge on this...
whats the best fuel to use on a petrol engine?
most of the time we fill up using supermarket stuff as its the closets but every now and then the car will get the branded stuff (either shell or bp)

As far as petrol is concerned are you talking about the difference between 95 and 97 RON petrol or just supermarket vrs branded. If it's supermarket vrs branded then it makes not a jot of difference. For example neither Shell or bp have any refining capacity in the UK, the vast majority of petrol supplied in scotland comes from Grangmouth which is owned by Ineos so anyone who thinks there is difference between brands is kidding themselves. If it's 95 vrs 97 then it could make a difference provided your car has a knock sensor as these are different fuel specifications.

I use premium deisel in my van which spends a lot of time running hard as it is only a 2.3l but weighs in at over 5 tons with a horsebox. It seems to have significantly more mid range grunt after several tanks of premium, on normal fuel it labour on the hills and often down to third gear, with premium it will normally hang in there with 4th.

There's loads of people who've put 2 stroke in their diesel and are convinced they could hear a difference the next time they started it- ie, when the 2 stroke is all still in the tank and you're running off normal fuel that was already in the pipes/pump/filter. Not to say it doesn't make a difference at all mind (good or bad), just that the difference they report can only be imaginary.

Mine runs on supermarket diesel, it's had 4 new injectors pretty much bang on the mileage where every other mondeo also needed new injectors. It does get better economy on posh diesel, just not enough for the difference.

252000 miles on my diesel. Never use the posh versions of fuel.

Could be wrong but that suggests an older breed diesel. They used to run fine on more or less anything.

The more modern beasts seem a lot more finicky. Personal experience in an S Max is avoiding super market fuels makes it run better, and it took a full service (fuel filter most likely suspect) to sort the previous owners Tesco diesel addiction out properly.

If I have to use supermarkets I'll put the bare minimum in and fill up with Super Diesel TM at the next opportunity. Otherwise I just use normal branded forecourts and the problems with running have just gone away.

If it's 95 vrs 97 then it could make a difference provided your car has a knock sensor as these are different fuel specifications.

97 also an idea if you have a Jap import, as their standard fuel is 97 so the car expects it. My Eunos was much happier on 97, but it was only about 80p difference a tank at that point.

If it's 95 vrs 97 then it could make a difference provided your car has a knock sensor as these are different fuel specifications.

Shell VPower is definitely better than the other premium petrols, my Alfas have definitely had more low rev torque and did an extra 40 to 50 miles per tank on it. No difference on the other premiums.

ginefishin and Turnerguy are both correct,

Standard 95RON not much in it, again bar the additive packs. Detergents are good for the vehicle, keeps deposits off the injectors and also off the psitons (which can cause det).

As i mentioned earlier, Shell V Power is a different base gasoline, that i can assure you. The diesel also used to be, but this stopped a couple of years ago. Over on the continent however, Vpower diesel is different!!

just to add some clarity on the Petrol side of things.. Depending on your car, it will have a number of "maps" on the ECU. you will generally have a poor fuel map (lower octane rating), typical (95) and premium (98-100). Various sensors will adjust accordingly, but this is normally on higher premium vehicles. Import cars from Jap are generally mapped on 97+, some on 100 as it's quite common out there.

I know a fair few who use Diesel Rhino with regular diesel as it works out cheaper than the premium diesel, increases the Cetane rating and cleans out the fuel system. They have been pretty happy with the results. I keep meaning to get round to ordering some, but have not yet.

Our TT gives us about 10% better MPG with posh fuel, and it's a tuned engine - so makes sense to put good stuff in it. It helps if you regularly service the car, and use cleaning liquids as appropriate. i.e. keep your engine in good health, and it will benefit from the premium fuel additives.

Over on the continent however, Vpower diesel is different!!

That explains why it costs 1,45€ compared to most other "high end" diesels,which cost around 1,20€.

Not used it as yet. Wait until I get given a fuel card to borrow/abuse....

Sui, do you know if it's true that Shell V-power doesn't have ethanol added?

It was recommended on classic motorbike forums for not rusting tanks out.

Either way, My motorbike (old 2T) only gets shell v-power, as I'd like to maximise the time between re-builds!

decent (non supermarket) fuel

Utter rubbish. Do you think they stand in the control room at the refinery and have a conversation along the lines of "this batch is going to Tesco, put them cheap hydrocarbons in..."

No.

They might potentially pour more soap into it but that's about it. Giving the car a damn good thrashing from time to time will do wonders for cleaning any muck out.

DPF? Needs a decent motorway run at least once a month.

Forensic types can identify fuel back to the different suppliers/retailers, if the fuel itself is the same this would imply that there is a notable difference in the concoction of detergents and anti-foaming agents added.

Sorry for delays chaps,

sobriety, yes that's correct, though it may be changing. It's becoming harder to not include bio elements due to the RTFO ruels. It used to be, that you could offset one stream against another, but you now have to have individual accounting.

Flaperon, you are correct to a point, but remember that the hydrocarbon element is accompanied by a bio element of often questionable quality.. Also, Some hydrocarbon elements are questionable as not all fuel is blended at refineries!!

It's becoming harder to not include bio elements due to the RTFO ruels.

😥 Which means rotted through tanks on classic vehicles, guess I'll have to start pre-mixing...

Well, I completed a 56 mile journey this morning at 44mpg. I filled up with BP Ultimate 1 mile from here, I shall let you know what happens on the way home.

"Flaperon - Member
decent (non supermarket) fuel
Utter rubbish. Do you think they stand in the control room at the refinery and have a conversation along the lines of "this batch is going to Tesco, put them cheap hydrocarbons in..."

No.

They might potentially pour more soap into it but that's about it. Giving the car a damn good thrashing from time to time will do wonders for cleaning any muck out."

please have a think about what you have just written...... more of ANYTHING to bulk up the fuel means less actual FUEL . i want FUEL not bulk. i buy 25 litres of DIESEL from the pump i dont want 22litres of Diesel and 3 litres of "soap" as you put it - my car doesnt run on soap.

sobriety - Member

Which means rotted through tanks on classic vehicles, guess I'll have to start pre-mixing...

Not easier to just line the tank, petseal or whatever?

Theoretically yes, but I've read of them still rotting in areas missed byt the petseal/damaged in some way. It's just a pain in the arse, especially as bioethanol does bugger all to help the environment anyways.

Yeah, that's fair, it's an extra hassle

(forget about classics, I had to petseal a '00 Suzuki!)

...my car doesn't not run on soap...

It won't run when's it's full of shite either. Your the kind of person that doesn't oil a chain arent you....

Errr , im the one against supermarket fuel.

More so ..."soap" bulking he speaks of in the case of supermarket fuel is actually biodiesel. Nasty shit

because of this thread I buy my fuel from BP today and not my convenient down the road and 8p off/litre voucher Tesco Petrol station 👿

i buy 25 litres of DIESEL from the pump i dont want 22litres of Diesel and 3 litres of "soap" as you put it

Based on the after market additives the ratio is more likely to be 24.9975 litres of diesel and 2.5ml of 'soap'.

Jap???

Really? 2015 and Jap is still being used?

I always run 2stroke in my diesels - namely a 1991 Defender and a TDCI Mk7 Transit.

The Defender will run on pretty much anything but it is quieter when running 2so, the Transit doesn't have the best reputation for expensive high pressure fuel pump failures which then take out the injectors and contaminate the whole fuel system so sticking 300ml in a full tank is hopefully cheap insurance. Again it is quieter when running 2so.

Jap???

Really? 2015 and Jap is still being used?

I apologise if any offence was caused, purely an abbreviation for the country of origin. Next time I will use the designated JPN Alpha-3 ISO code and be sure to capatalise 🙄

"Based on the after market additives the ratio is more likely to be 24.9975 litres of diesel and 2.5ml of 'soap'."

when i said "soap" in inverted commas i was referring to the content of biofuels ill be honest...... the term soap was coined earlier by someone taking a guess at what was in the fuels other than hydrocarbons.

7% of 25litres is 1.75 litres.

MSDS for diesel and ultra low sulphur diesels.

Normal Diesel sold in the UK:

2. Composition/information on ingredients
Ingredient name
Petroleum distillates- % by weight 99
Contains: naphthalene- % by weight >1
May also contain small quantities of proprietary performance additives.
3. Hazards identification
CAS #
68476-34-6 91-20-3

Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel sold in the UK:

3. Composition/information on ingredients
Ingredient name
Petroleum distillates- % by weight 90
Contains one or more of the following biodiesels: soybean oil, me ester
Fatty acids, sunflower-oil, Me esters >1%
Fatty acids methyl esters >1%
Fatty acids, vegetable-oil, Methyl esters rape oil, me ester >5%
Fatty acids, canola-oil, Me esters fatty acids, tallow, me esters >2%
Contains one or more of the following renewable diesel: Fuels, diesel, C9-18-alkane branched and linear >1%
May also contain small quantities of proprietary performance additives. >1%
CAS #
68476-34-6
Varies 67784-80-9 68919-54-0 67762-38-3 68990-52-3 73891-99-3 129828-16-6 61788-61-2
1159170-26-9

strikes me that super duper diesel is probably just "diesel" as we used to know it and city diesel is the shit you dont want. anyone come across a filter with diesel bugs living in ?

You can ignore the MSDS' to a point, they are generic based on what is typically found. However, to give you an idea of how things do change,

Diesel Supplier A, on day 1, was supplying a 6.5% bio diesel (fully EN590 compliant). On day 5, Supplier A was supplying diesel with just 3.3% bio (fully EN590 compliant)

The reason is down to economics (cost of Bio vs hydrocarbon) vs RTFO trade-off (cost of complying vs penalty).

Other considerations (as already mentioned) - the grade of Bio varies drastically within the UK. At the moment the UK source is predominantly UCOME (used cooking oil), with a bit of RME, SME and Palm thrown in. Durin the winter months, palm will be phased out as it goes solid at +5c. When UCOME becomes hard to get hold of, or there is a glut of RME on the market, the supply will be heavily RME based, seldom SME due to it's inability to meet spec.

However, not all retailers/distributors use the same source, so the Bio type does change a lot, especially between regions. Agricultural Diesel (which is just normal diesel anyway with a red dye in it), is almost always FAME free..

Shell VPower is definitely better than the other premium petrols, my Alfas have definitely had more low rev torque and did an extra 40 to 50 miles per tank on it. No difference on the other premiums

This is the case with my Alfa too and, oddly, seems to give better economy in dynamic rather than normal mode 8)

The reason is down to economics (cost of Bio vs hydrocarbon) vs RTFO trade-off (cost of complying vs penalty).

Sui, does that mean with falling oil prices, supermarket fuels might actually increase hydrocarbon content and therefore be a bit more 'SMAX compatible'?
I've no idea of the relative costs of UCOME vs real as to how far it mighjt have to fall to make that even likely.

brassneck - yes, until a politician or environmentalist figures it out and slaps further fines on. We're at a breaking point right now, some reclaimed bio (i.e. waste) is worth "double points", so it takes a lot not to use it! What i'd be more worried about is smuggled fuel, whilst its a huge issue in Ireland it also happens on the mainland here - tankers getting swapped over and all sorts!

Returned exactly the same mpg on the way home using BP ultimate. Maybe is takes some time to clean those injectors.

I *think* it takes a little while for the ECU to adjust, some say a tank or two.

I noticed the difference on 2nd tankful of posh stuff, must take a while to adjust, clean and help (sorry not very technical)

Not convinced. I'm a 70l tank and a half through now, and I'm averaging exactly the same - 44mpg - as I was before.

I'll try a tank of V Power just for the purpose of a test, but it won't be long term as I need the Nectar points from BP for next Christmas.

Off the back of this thread I thought I'd try using branded stuff for a bit ,normally I fill up at tesco.

So far have used 2 tanks of Shell and currently on a tank of BP diesel all the normal variety.

Results so far, car feels identical in every way to when I use the Tesco stuff mileage is no better/or worse and feels the same whilst driving.

Admittedly its a 10year old low powered Turbo diesel so not in a high state of tune(Pumps out a tarmac shredding 65bhp) so more powerful cars or those with newer engines with more emission gear on them may behave differently.