Starmer is little more than a political equivalent of chatgpt, on first glance it looks valid, sensible and informative yet on further examination it’s all a veneer.
So when Labour and Tories lied to us with "The Vow"
We were meant to believe it.
Now Labour is lieing
Isn’t he just trying to avoid Tory ‘In the SNP’s pocket’ campaign tactics
The Tories are meant to believe it in England but up here in Scotland we're to believe it's all one amazingly clever charade and socialist Sir Keir will be free with a mighty leap.
Aye Right
The Tories are meant to believe it in England but up here in Scotland we’re to believe it’s all one amazingly clever charade and socialist Sir Keir will be free with a mighty leap.
Aye Right
Agreed.
We’re in the position where in England it’s deemed a vote winner to tell the populous that any Westminster MP’s Scotland votes for should be and will be ignored.
It’s a fairly dispiriting situation
he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP elected mps on any matter. He was quite clear his intentions to ignore any elected representative from Scotland that weren’t Labour.
He is continuing the Tory approach of Scotland can send / elect anyone they want, but they’ll have no say in Westminster and be roundly ignored.
You never go into a campaign saying you'll collaborate or form a coalition with one of your competitors.
Scot Nats have got a weird idea that Scotland ought to be treated like some kind of equal partner to rUK, and anything less than that is being ignored and oppressed. Thats not the case. Scotland has about 1/10 of the population of the UK. It has smaller constituencies (ie more MPs per cap) than England and Northern Ireland. The SNP has 76% of the Westminster seats for Scotland and 45% of the votes. Devolved matters are already determined by Scottish legislators. Why should a UK PM put Scottish MPs from other parties at the head of the queue any more than they'd do it for MPs from the Midlands or rural constituencies?
campaigning on sunlit uplands and faith in the future has a nasty habit of collapsing around your ears.
Yep. Just ask the Better Together campaigners.
Scot Nats have got a weird idea that Scotland ought to be treated like some kind of equal partner to rUK, and anything less than that is being ignored and oppressed. Thats not the case. Scotland has about 1/10 of the population of the UK. It has smaller constituencies (ie more MPs per cap) than England and Northern Ireland. The SNP has 76% of the Westminster seats for Scotland and 45% of the votes. Devolved matters are already determined by Scottish legislators. Why should a UK PM put Scottish MPs from other parties at the head of the queue any more than they’d do it for MPs from the Midlands or rural constituencies?
Scotland, just another English region.
No, Scotland - just another part of the UK.
The Better Together campaign didn’t promise sunlit uplands at all. There were no big promises about anything - it was "more of the same". And the majority wanted that!
No, Scotland – just another part of the UK.
As you said, the vast majority of the UK is England.
Sounds like everyone, including you, would be happier if Scotland left. No more uppity Scots thinking they're more than they are.
it was “more of the same”. And the majority wanted that!
Yes, and then two years later England and Wales decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Gave up because the editing function of this forum is rubbish since we lost preview…
Sounds like everyone, including you, would be happier if Scotland left. No more uppity Scots thinking they’re more than they are
The problem is not with Scots (of which I am one, by the way). It's with a minority of Scot Nats that start from the premise that the UK is some kind of federation, and then demand their 5.4 million residents are given 25% of the vote. It's just nuts.
two years later England and Wales decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Or, old people decided that more of the same was being taken off the table. Or, rural areas decided that more of the same was being taken off the table.
Scottish voters got the same single vote as everyone else in the UK. Brexit won, which was stupid. Scottish independence, putting a customs barrier between it and its only land neighbour, creating a new currency or relying on a foreign currency, and all the other shit would be twice as stupid as Brexit now.
The problem is not with Scots (of which I am one, by the way). It’s with a minority of Scot Nats that start from the premise that the UK is some kind of federation, and then demand their 5.4 million residents are given 25% of the vote. It’s just nuts.
Depends on whether you feel that Scotland is fundamentally culturally and politically different from England. I do. I suspect you do too but you just prefer the cultural and political preferences of the English to your fellow Scottish citizens.
Scottish independence, putting a customs barrier between it and its only land neighbour, creating a new currency or relying on a foreign currency, and all the other shit would be twice as stupid as Brexit now.
Nothing would be twice as stupid as Brexit. Or rather, nothing you've listed would be twice as stupid as Brexit.
Sticking with the status quo and expecting the British Nationalist xenophobic temper tantrum we're all experiencing right now to end any time soon would be twice as stupid as Brexit.
Depends on whether you feel that Scotland is fundamentally culturally and politically different from England. I do. I suspect you do too but you just prefer the cultural and political preferences of the English to your fellow Scottish citizens.
Not really noticed a huge cultural difference in my time, have lived half my life in Scotland and half in England, yes you have the difference up in the Highlands, but that's just as much a cultural shift from the central belt or lower than it is to England.
Politically, well that can change in no time at all, i know that threads on here have Scotland as some left wing utopia politically, but there's also a good percentage of loyalists and nutters, just go to Glasgow on a rangers match day, or wander along with one of the many orange walks they have, or visit Ayrshire (if you dare!).
Politically, well that can change in no time at all,
Really? In which election in the last 40 years has Scotland voted in line with England?
The closest I can think of is when Labour won. In some of those elections, if the Scottish result had been repeated across the UK, the Tories would have 0 seats.
It can change but it's not been the same as England for decades, if it ever was.
@argee I'm from Ayr born and bred in Ayr actually. My family have strong connections to Highlands and Islands I don't think that's unusual. My mum is Catholic and a townie and my dad protestant and was brought up on a farm in the south of Ayrshire where his family had to cut peat for heating.
I know all this is anecdotal but.. I do find it hard to believe that there are not strong connections between southwest Scotland and the Highlands. Though these connections were not always peaceful.
I do find it hard to believe that there are not strong connections between southwest Scotland and the Highlands.
All i mean is it's no different to most of the UK, folk trying to make out Scotland is a completely different country is just not what i've seen, bar a few enclosures, but that's the same as across the UK again, you have areas that are insular in all four countries.
All i mean is it’s no different to most of the UK, folk trying to make out Scotland is a completely different country is just not what i’ve seen, bar a few enclosures, but that’s the same as across the UK again, you have areas that are insular in all four countries.
Having lived in Scotland, England, and Norway, I would say Scotland is far closer to the Nordic countries than to England. The Nordic countries and Scotland share a sense of collectivism and common weal that I just didn't find in England.
Saying that, arguing about cultural differences is probably pretty pointless. It's impossible to measure so all it will be is us talking about our general feelings. Not to be disregarded but impossible to measure or prove.
What can be shown empirically is the radically different voting patterns in Scotland and England over the last half century that are only diverging further the more elections we have.
Scotland tells itself a lot of things about itself some of these things have a big effect on Scotland but they are not always true. 😉
Tom Devine is a clever fella though.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/history-turned-on-tory-voting-scotland-thatcher-1980s
intheborders
Free Member
I reckon she’s just had enough – 8 years of taking a beating from the entire UK Govt & Establishment.
From the outside looking in, yeah, it doesn't seem like a fun job currently especially when you've just had the UK Gov' flex their muscles to back up a wizarding billionaire and some transphobes. It's got to be a dispiriting situation.
I quite liked her. I also like the SNP. But I am now hoping this allows Labour to gain a bit more ground in Scotland and thus have a better chance of taking control of the UK.
If the SNP do implode in the next couple of years Scottish Labour need to capitalise, it could be the difference between a Labour win and a big Labour majority down in Westminster. But that would definitely push Scottish independence off the agenda for another generation...
If Scottish Labour are going to have a chance, they’ll need to stop their electoral pacts with the Tories, standing members of the Orange Lodge as candidates and demonstrate they’re not a distant branch office of Islington. Until they get rid of the lies and stink perpetuated by the Better Together campaign, enough folks aren’t going to hold their noses long enough as they watch another round of Westminster-imposed spending cuts to the fabric of their communities
The Better Together campaign didn’t promise sunlit uplands at all. There were no big promises about anything – it was “more of the same
No, but there was the fear mongering about an independent Scotland being kicked out of the EU...
Scotland tells itself a lot of things about itself some of these things have a big effect on Scotland but they are not always true. 😉
Tom Devine is a clever fella though.
Yeah, interesting from the first vote, it would be interesting that the change occurred after that anit-Irish immigration vote, my dad was an Irish Catholic who arrived in Scotland in the late 60s and it wasn't a friendly place for immigrants by all accounts, i just see the changes due to the SNP and Greens option, down south there is no English Party, there are of course the mental right winger ones, but they take the dafties votes.
I just have never seen much of a difference between the countries, i was brought up around Perth, back in the 80s they were a tory area, you'd see Nicholas Fairbairn on his horse driven coach out seeing the public, then moved down to Glasgow for a while, never enjoyed living there, would definitely say it was not a socialist paradise there! Moved out to the central belt and it was pretty normal again, but been down south in Somerset, Wiltshire and Bristol on and off over the last 20 years, probably don't see much of a difference as down this area, especially Bristol it is different.
fear mongering about an independent Scotland being kicked out of the EU…
See it's stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn't have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
I just have never seen much of a difference between the countries, i was brought up around Perth, back in the 80s they were a tory area, you’d see Nicholas Fairbairn on his horse driven coach out seeing the public, then moved down to Glasgow for a while, never enjoyed living there, would definitely say it was not a socialist paradise there!
Funnily enough, I hated Perth. Glasgow is where I'd really like to be again. For me, Glasgow is where I've always felt the strongest sense of community.
Perth reminded me more of being in England in terms of attitudes. For reference, when I was in England I was living in Surrey.
On a Scottish Labour renaissance, remember when Theresa May scraped a GE win by the skin of her teeth, helped by the sudden uptick of Scottish Tory candidates being elected, then recall how Scottish Labour encouraged it’s supporters to “vote Tory to keep the SNP out” - their visceral, irrational hatred of the SNP essentially blew up the change for success in the General Election. Imagine how different the UK might have been, if the Tories hadn’t been in power, beholden to the DUP and the ERG headbangers.
Speaking as someone who voted Labour in Scotland for a big chunk of my adult life, I can’t see anything about them that would draw me back.
Prior to the 2014 referendum, my preferred option would have been to expand devolution; very much a gradualist approach to self-determination for Scotland. The decision to take a confrontational, all or nothing approach by David Cameron, and the Better Together campaign, hardened my attitude, and the ensuing descent of UK politics into a hard-right clown show has only hardened that resolve. With the prevailing attitudes in England, I can’t see Keir Starmer being anything other than a one term government, before we’re back to The Brexit Tories, and a devolved Scottish parliament, of any flavour, is only ever going to be able to mitigate the social and economic impacts in a very limited way. Brexit has rendered the breakup of the UK inevitable.
Anyway, of the potential replacements, I can't recall any of them being particularly vociferous about progressing independence these past few years. That will mostly be down to the tight control exerted by the party leader and its CEO. With an accelerated leadership election process having been conjured up I doubt we'll have much of an opportunity to hear what the candidates have to say either. I expect we'll not have much change from the current work with the UK Govt/present them with an undeniable mandate line so there will be little to differentiate them.
I think I'd rather be based in or near Perth any day rather than Glasgow but then I don't really know the place, too much bigotry for me and it rains a lot. I like the architecture but quite a bit looking like it needs tlc
My daughter thought the place was great when at uni with her friends many from the same school but Edinburgh and the East for me
Fairbairn was a dodgy solicitor and there seem to have been many in that "trusted" profession over the years and probably currently, live in Fordell castle a few miles up from the Forth bridge in Fife
For reference, when I was in England I was living in Surrey.
If that's what you think all of England is like then that does explain a lot of your posts. I believe another poster referenced living in the home counties too.
I'm still a member of the SNP more of the same cold porridge isn't an attractive option for me
See it’s stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn’t have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
So a country proven to have followed the 'rules' for decades wouldn't have been fast-tracked in - sure mate, sure.
If that’s what you think all of England is like then that does explain a lot of your posts. I believe another poster referenced living in the home counties too.
I'm very much aware that attitudes and culture vary massively in England (as you'd expect in a country of 55 million). A country of 5 million has far less variation although some pretty big differences.
I've had conversations with people from the North of England who are very much against Scotland going independent. When I ask, 'What if we took the North of England with us?' they normally have to have a long think before they answer.
I've said several times I'm not independence at all costs. If the UK met some conditions (which they are showing zero sign of even moving towards) then I'd definitely reconsider. They are, in order:
1. Get rid of FPTP
2. Rejoin the EU
3. Written constitution
4. Become more like Germany with a strong federal element of government
If there was any sign of any of those things happening I'd reconsider. However, even option 4 is just having lip service paid to it. There is no reasonable route to any of those things so independence is the only option for now.
A federal UK, in the EU, is the “answer”… but that is never happening. There are some baby steps towards devolving more power in Labour’s proposed “take back control” bill, but the truth is that moving towards anything like a federal system in steps that’ll take 40+ years is just a fantasy proposition, because those steps will be undone by future UK governments. This reality has become clear to most people since 2014, and moved many people to be more favourable towards the independence idea, even if they’re not there yet. People who were once incremental devolutionists can now see how temporary and limited devolved powers are when they are handed down from above with unilateral power, rather than truly built in at the lower level and lent upwards when mutually agreed and beneficial.
A federal UK, in the EU, is the “answer”… but that is never happening.
It's an accusation that is often leveled at indy supporters that we would support independence no matter what.
To that I tell them, 'That's not true' and list what it would take for me to support the Union. To which they normally reply, 'But that will never happen!'
To which I say, 'Exactly, hence independence. Now, what would it take for you to vote Yes?'
Normally I don't get an answer to that question, which makes me wonder how many Unionists has actually thought through their position and aren't just defaulting to the status quo.
I’m afraid you are right. Nothing has happened since 2014 to reassure people (however they voted) that there is any progression towards deeper or less precarious devolution. I don’t want Scotland to separate from the UK… but any talk about how the union can be made to work looks more and more like hot air in the face of the reality of UK wide politics. It feels like the referendum was a “you’ve made your choice, now shut up and live with the union exactly how a UK government wants it, no compromise” moment, when so much more was offered to win that vote. And then Brexit…
That was always the fear of what would happen if the vote was lost in 2014 and, I suspect, one of the reasons that Nicola Sturgeon has never pressed for a rerun.
wouldn’t have been fast-tracked in – sure mate, sure.
10 years would be the fast track. The process won't start until the uncoupling from rUK is complete and based on how well Brexit is going that won't be a quick or easy process either (Scotland will have to deal with rUK government for a start). The EU can't bring Scotland in until things like borders are sorted, is it going to be a hard border (with Scotland's biggest trading partner) or a soft border so that goods and people can move relatively freely. If the latter (former would be suicide for Scotland) then the EU will want all sorts of things in place, look how difficult it's proving in Northern Ireland.
I don't know whether the ridiculous levels of optimism shown by leavers is wild naivety or wanton misdirection.
Bit of both
See it’s stupid and misleading statements like that which highlight the desperation of the leave campaign. An independent Scotland wouldn’t have been kicked out of the EU, it would never have been a member, regardless of whether the UK was or not. It would have to apply to join and even a quick joining would probably take a decade, it was claims like these from the leave campaign that were wildly optimistic at best, bit like leave in the Brexit debate. All sunlit uplands and jam tomorrow based on little more than jingoistic fervour and misinformation.
Meanwhile, voting to stay got us where exactly?
@stumpyjon just out of interest, what would have to happen in the UK to make you switch from No to Yes?
Meanwhile, voting to stay got us where exactly?
In a less worse position than if you had voted to leave.
@BruceWee I live south of the border so my opinion doesn't count, even though it has huge significance for the country I live in. I don't think there is anything that would change my mind. As I grew up the world seemed to be slowly coming together, in the West at any rate. All I've seen over the last decade or so is fragmentation into smaller and smaller groups, more and more small minded nationalism and it's toxic and counter productive. If Scotland was independent I don't think the additional freedom from Westminster would really be used to make the lives of people in Scotland better, even if there was a significant loss in income for the country which I believe will happen.
Yes Westminster politicians are a disgrace but many in Engalnd and Wales think the same thing and also feel powerless. It's not just here either, many Europeans aren't happy with the current state of things either.
I think Scottish independance is a quirk of geography used by career hungry politicians to make themselves important whilst avoiding the real issues facing most of us. We need to grow up and work together, not just get huffy when we don't get our own way and pretend we're special when we're not.
I don't get that many Scottish nationalists can't see the similarities between their behaviiur and messages and the Brexiteers across the UK. It's all some blind belief that if 'we' could somehow regain our sovereignty we could do so much better. I don't believe the politicians would be any better on a more local level and the concept of sovereignty for all but maybe China and the USA is a myth, the world is global, national politicians don't have the freedom to do what they want, Liz Truss tried, look where that led.
There will be no revolution that suddenly makes things better, theynusualky make things a lot worse, society will continue to evolve and improve but it happens organically and can't be forced.
I don’t get that many Scottish nationalists can’t see the similarities between their behaviiur and messages and the Brexiteers across the UK.
Yeah, we don't get how, despite having explained it on this and multiple other threads many many times using smaller and smaller words until we're basically just grunting and using sign language, you still don't get that they are completely different.
English-centric world view, I guess.
I don’t think there is anything that would change my mind.
So you're a true blue British Nationalist? The British government simply could not do anything so terrible that you could be made to admit Scotland might be better off as an independent country?
Good to know.
If Scotland was independent I don’t think the additional freedom from Westminster would really be used to make the lives of people in Scotland better, even if there was a significant loss in income for the country which I believe will happen.
Living in Scotland that’s as far as I need to read.
Ah yes, the old “if you vote for independence, you’ll lose your place in the EU, the economy will tank, and you’ll be worse off financially” strategem.
That aged well…
@stumpyjon Wouldn't there be a different working relationship with the EU. One country wishing to join and willing to meet EU regulations An other country wishing to leave, sometimes refusing to negotiate at all, untrustworthy when it did negotiate etc.
