But you can't challenge it if you haven't even read it! What an utterly ridiculous thing to say.
a lot of the issues could be fairly blamed on Westminster. For example a decent payrise for teachers means cuts elsewhere.
That's not Westminster - that's just what having a limited amount of money looks like.
, is you don’t have to take responsibility for an unfolding disaster of your own making. In a resignation speech characterised by self-worth and delusion, she almost admitted as much.
She does take responsibility for mistakes and failures, a rare thing in a politician, there is no unfloding disaster of her own making, the speech was not full of self worth and delusion, she didn't admit as much
any more cobblers you want me to dissect?
There is plenty of stuff with a factual basis she can be criticized for so why make up nonsense?
How many unionist Scots won’t vote snp, despite agreeing with all their other policies? And the inverse?
If you look at SNP vote share vs support for Scottish independence, you'll see that their platform is actually more popular than independence. Many voters are voting for the SNP despite its commitment to independence, not because of it.
Her insistance on a re-vote smacks of playground pettiness. ” I lost so it’s now best of three”.
I'm anti-independence post-Brexit, but this is a childish attitude. It's a democracy, people are entitled to change their mind, institutions are resilient enough to be criticised, and Brexit/globalization/mass migration have all fundamentally changed the "package" of being in the UK. The SNP policy is entirely sensible and legitimate and democratic - to demand a further referendum when they have a mandate for independence at an election.
Seeing the shortlist being put up is depressing, some absolute nightmares in that pack if they go for it, looks like Angus Robertson might be the least worst option, but a step back from Sturgeon.
The SNP need to put a lot of effort into getting themselves back in fighting shape for me, the longer they've been in a position of power the more it's caused them these types of issues, you get the feeling the party is fracturing as well, something had to have made todays event happen, hopefully it's not an inside job, but, as previous, politicians are politicians, they eat their own, so i wouldn't put it past them.
Robertson will be a divisive disaster IMO. None of the obvious candidates are anything much to talk about tho
There is only one Robertson that I associate with Scottish politics and that's George Robertson, who when he was Shadow Scottish Secretary famously said: "Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead".
I don't know if it was this canny ability to spectacularly misread situations which later landed him the job of Secretary General of NATO.
Jesus thanks Ernie I'd forgotten about that eejit till you brought him up. Had to suffer through the longest speech in my life as he was presenting the school prizes that year. Can't remember what the content was as I was too busy trying to stay awake along with everyone else in attendance.
she has a damn awful personality
she’s the leader of a political party, that pretty much automatically makes her someone who other people dislike. I’ve met her once (before she was even in the cabinet) and she seemed pretty sensible to me for a politician. I know quite a few people who have met her, many of them not nationalists, who are quite complimentary about Nicola Sturgeon the person, so what is it about her personality that is damn awful, which isn’t essentially a prerequisite for getting shit done in high office?
Her insistance on a re-vote smacks of playground pettiness.
just so we are clear:
1. it wasn’t “her” insistence it was her party’s - it’s the one thing that they are pretty universally agreed on
2. if you listened to her speech one of the resounding comments is about people polarising opinions and entrenching arguments because they don’t like the individual rather than the policy;
3. if the people of Scotland don’t want this to be high on the agenda there is a simple option - vote for one of the other parties. Whilst not everyone who votes snp wants independence, or thinks it’s a top priority they all made a decision to vote for a party with a very obvious position / expectation for it so clearly there’s a large number of people in Scotland who don’t subscribe to your “you had your chance, forget about it and move on” argument.
john McLennan misses the point as usual! She may have stepped down because she doesn’t want to preside over a very small Indy loss, but not for the reason he thinks. She doesn’t want to be wondering, “was it ME people voted against, and if we had swapped leader in 2023 would that have swung enough “sturgeon-haters” to say yes”. I suspect he was dancing a jig last night celebrating her demise but actually if they pick a strong but slightly more likeable leader she may have timed this just perfectly for the people who “would never vote for wee nippy” to think again. You see so much of the anti Indy argument has been structured against the individual or the party and not the merits of Indy that they’ve just been sent back to think again and formulate new moments of hate. Those who like their Twitter sound bites must be really confused - not sure who to pick on for the next few months!
Robertson will be a divisive disaster IMO. None of the obvious candidates are anything much to talk about tho
Have to be honest, i never really thought about who could replace her in all these years, i have a lot of questions about the SNP and their strategy, the nepotism that's been getting worse in their ranks, and the divisiveness in some areas, but Sturgeon has always been a leader and personality wise, was pretty balanced. Unfortunately the next level down from her, it's just full of people who are going to be even more divisive, and a lot of them are nailed to the mast with their beliefs and will just rub certain people or groups up the wrong way no matter what.
Politics is just a horrible place these days though, i think seeing the UK going through the ringer over the years has shown us what can happen, i just see parties as being all the same, yes their manifesto and direction are different, but the people are the same in terms of how they act, anyone in the SNP needs to look cautiously at what the tories have been through over the last few years, and make sure they don't go the same route.
So succession
I don't know who but IMO it needs to be someone from lower down the ranks and preferably not a "pale, male and stale". The SNP need a complete reset. One of the current front bench would not do IMO as they would not be able to do the reset required
Swinney. No charisma. yesterdays man
Robertson - too close to Salmond, participated in sweeping Salmonds groping under the carpet, too rightwing to keep the lefties on side, tainted by the nato decision as well would be a return to the "tartan tories" IMO
Forbes - just no. "wee free" beliefs should disqualify her and far too socially conservative to again keep the lefties onside
Yousaf - would be a good candidate but the mud over the NHS has stuck too much. Unfair perhaps but I think for that reason he is out
Thats the main front runners - of the others suggested Màiri McAllan I do not know owt about but perhaps
I do not know enough about the internal politics really but thats my feeling - the party needs a reset and someone new not tainted by previous scandals / weaknesses nor beholden to one part of the party but I fear either a timid replacement or a period of internal strife as various factions who feel they have been left out jockey for position.
Douglas Ross came across as entirely lacking in grace in his TV pieces about this.
Re timing - it is Scottish Parly recess at the moment, so good time for this kind of party (not government) business.
And the lack of a clear successor means work to do to build a brand before the next Scottish election which is three years away.
Douglas Ross lacks grace in any circumstance.
He's a nasty Tory and a joke of a politician.
I think it's going to come down to who (if anyone) actually has a plan for gaining independence.
I don't really see what the alternative to the de facto referendum plan is. People are going to lose patience very quickly with an SNP whose plan is to win elections, ask for and be denied a Section 30 order, and then whine about it until the next election.
The next leader needs to have a solid plan to deal with a hostile and uncooperative Westminster. If not, the accusations that the SNP aren't really interested in independence will be shown to be the truth.
Douglas Ross lacks grace in any circumstance.
It’s telling that, despite being fairly politically active at least at a local level, I found myself struggling to remember the names of either the Tory or Lib Dem party leaders in Scotland at the moment. Working in the voluntary sector in Glasgow, I have dealings with Labour, SNP and Green politicians fairly regularly, but Lib Dems and Tories are noticeable by their absence in most cases.
Rangers fans congregated in George Square last night to celebrate 🙄
People are going to lose patience very quickly with an SNP whose plan is to win elections, ask for and be denied a Section 30 order, and then whine about it until the next election.
If the UK government can ignore a Scottish government with a clear mandate for a referendum, then they can do the same after any "defacto referendum" election. None of this is Sturgeon's fault... she has gained multiple election successes with a pledge to have a referendum... that there won't be one is because Scotland has no right (I'm talking legally, not morally or democratically) to insist on one. Even if every single person in Scotland were to vote for candidates supporting independence, a unionist majority UK government can still just say no.
What plan do you propose, other than "whining" (ie campaigning for, and winning public support for, independence)?
Rangers fans congregated in George Square last night to celebrate 🙄
The Master Race
If the UK government can ignore a Scottish government with a clear mandate for a referendum, then they can do the same after any “defacto referendum” election
You have to keep advancing your position. One way to do that is to demonstrate that the majority of Scotland is in favour of independence through the de facto referendum (ie, you have one item in your manifesto).
From there, you continue to apply pressure through seizing what are considered UK reserved matters until Westminster is forced to either dissolve the Scottish Parliament or a UDI is declared (or both). You would hope that Westminster would see sense and grant a Section 30 order before either of those things came to pass.
If you aren't advancing the position you're going backwards. Maybe it's a true test of what's more important to the SNP. Independence or government.
Douglas Ross lacks grace in any circumstance.
He’s a nasty Tory and a joke of a politician.
As a Celtic fan i can confirm all of the above.
D.ross is tone deaf. Sarwar hit the tone about right.
Tories are now around 15% in Scotland? Losing ground to labour. Small loss in the SNP vote but the only real movement is tory to labour
Forbes – just no. “wee free” beliefs should disqualify her and far too socially conservative to again keep the lefties onside
TJ imagine if you said "Yousaf should be disqualified for his religious views"! I think there is no place for religion in politics but I wasn't aware she was strongly promoting a "wee free" agenda?
Yousaf – would be a good candidate but the mud over the NHS has stuck too much. Unfair perhaps but I think for that reason he is out
He's never really made a strong positive impact in any of the departments he's been in.
Rangers fans congregated in George Square last night to celebrate 🙄
That's the real challenge for the new FM, and the issue which Nicola carefully avoided. Tribalism around sectarian nonsense - football - politics is what holds scotland back, regardless of which side of that divide you are on. Its unbelievable to me in 2023 we still separate people from the age of 5 based on their religious background, that simply reinforces the crazies and entrenches their views on everything, the point she was making in her speech yesterday. I could overcome almost any other policy distaste to vote for the party that says enough is enough, lets put education not religion at the heart of schools and stop reinforcing artificial distinctions inherited from previous generations with little thought behind it.
Douglas Ross came across as entirely lacking in grace in his TV pieces about this.
He's just playing to his audience. The people that put him in power are the people who hate Nicola and all that she stands for. Many of them are so entrenched in that, that if Ross had made the statement his predecessor did they'd probably have turned on him!
Poly - only what I have read but from what I have read she is strongly anti equal rights LBGT rights and too socially conservative to lead the SNP. She would not be able to keep the urban socially progressive lefties on side. Less to do with her religion more to do with the views of the church she is active in
Yousaf seems to be able to put his religion side, she seems unable to do so.
Point taken tho
Rangers fans will gather in George Square to celebrate the opening of an envelope - as long as it wasn't one of those catholic envelopes.
Also for balance re TJ and The Scotsman and cobblers - The National is the deranged unthinking Yes Scotland equivalent! Although the Yes brand has been tarnished a bit by all the rampant anti-women, or was it pro-women, I forget and it can be hard to tell when you are a woman, anyway they lost their shite over the gender recognition reform Bill
Màiri McAllan impressed me with how she dealt with very hostile attacks in committee from pro hunting shills which included Fergus Ewing
Of the candidates I know anything about she seems the best but my knowledge is thin
Also for balance re TJ and The Scotsman and cobblers – The National is the deranged unthinking Yes Scotland equivalent!
Oh I agree - hence the comment "the scotsman makes the National look unbiased"
Herald is probably the most balanced of the Scots press but the Scotsman is awful
To be fair, The National doesn't try to pretend it's neutral on the subject.
Back on the subject of the next leader, I hope that whoever they are can move the debate away from the mechanisms of independence and back to the subject of independence.
By that I mean, decide on a strategy and then stop debating the strategy. Instead, focus on the benefits of independence and keep party discipline to avoid getting into debates with Unionists about how we're going to get there.
I think that would leave the door open to another independence party, either one that is more extreme or one that is more gradualist depending on where the SNP land but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. A pro-indy vote is a pro-indy vote and I don't like it when a single party is dominant on any subject.
I hope the SNP decides on an aggressive strategy and a new gradualist party emerges. Hopefully Alba will then disappear and Salmond can go back to RT.
I think that the subject of the mechanism should be a debate for Yes supporters while debates with No voters should stick to the pros and cons of independence.
Anyone else hear the one-time playing of Ruth the Mooth's statement on BBC radio yesterday around lunchtime?
It was, as far as I can recall, wholly positive and complimentary. I nearly fell off my perch.
No doubt this positive perspective is the reason why no further quotes or plays of the statement will be tolerated by our almost entirely biased media!
Anyone else hear the one-time playing of Ruth the Mooth’s statement on BBC radio yesterday around lunchtime?
It was, as far as I can recall, wholly positive and complimentary. I nearly fell off my perch.
I missed it but it doesn't surprise me. Ruth is just not a good fit for the current incarnation of the Tory party.
Can I also suggest that D Ross is at best an "average" linesman.
Ruth was very complimentary about Nicola Sturgeon.
Maybe currently being on holiday in Tenerife had mellowed her out a bit?
Its a little absurd how the BBC use the Scots in Westminster as if they are in charge - just because they are available that decision is not Flynns to make
Can I also suggest that D Ross is at best an “average” linesman.
Unless you're a rangers supporter, then he's one of the best.
There's no satisfaction in this for me.
I think we missed the best chance to have a second indyref. I am not satisfied with any of the suggestions put forward now. I wish the SNPs internal democracy was stronger, but imperfect as it is there's a chance to examine them all thoroughly, to pick the least worst option and importantly the new leadership will have to endorse conferences choice so there will be no squirming and claiming "this policy was adopted before I became leader"
Fundamentally we need to persuade more people, and the unionists need to accept that roughly 50% of Scots are to put it mildly unhappy with the constitutional status quo
I always loved it when Ian Blackford stood up in Westminster to question the PM. And judging from the reaction in the house so did a great deal of others.
It always felt like the PM was the naughty pupil up in front of the headmaster, and trying to talk his way out of a beating 😆
it needs to be someone from lower down the ranks and preferably not a “pale, male and stale”.
Scotland is 96% pale, 50% male, and ageing...
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/
There’s no satisfaction in this for me.
I think we missed the best chance to have a second indyref. I am not satisfied with any of the suggestions put forward now. I wish the SNPs internal democracy was stronger, but imperfect as it is there’s a chance to examine them all thoroughly, to pick the least worst option and importantly the new leadership will have to endorse conferences choice so there will be no squirming and claiming “this policy was adopted before I became leader”
Fundamentally we need to persuade more people, and the unionists need to accept that roughly 50% of Scots are to put it mildly unhappy with the constitutional status quo
Fully agree. The circumstances that strengthened the cause of independence; Brexit, Sturgeon, endless tory corruption, will diminish once Starmer takes over. His current 'make Brexit work' stance will change once in. A centre left UK Government with public sector sympathies and closer EU ties, coupled with a less dynamic SNP leader will set support for the next indyref back by years. That ship has sailed and the next one hasn't been built yet.
I find it difficult to see Labour under Starmer as anything other than Tory light.
Also the SNP and the independence campaign are not one and the same so that ship is still there. It maybe needs a new captain or captains who might be politicians or might be from outside politics completely.
For avoidance of any doubt I mean peaceful protest organisations
Fully agree. The circumstances that strengthened the cause of independence; Brexit, Sturgeon, endless tory corruption, will diminish once Starmer takes over. His current ‘make Brexit work’ stance will change once in. A centre left UK Government with public sector sympathies and closer EU ties, coupled with a less dynamic SNP leader will set support for the next indyref back by years. That ship has sailed and the next one hasn’t been built yet.
I don’t see that - I don’t think Starmer will be good for Scotland tbh. When he was on “the rest is politics” podcast a few months ago - he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP elected mps on any matter. He was quite clear his intentions to ignore any elected representative from Scotland that weren’t Labour.
He is continuing the Tory approach of Scotland can send / elect anyone they want, but they’ll have no say in Westminster and be roundly ignored.
Starmer is hoping that just like Johnson/Truss/Sunak it doesn't matter who Scotland elect - he won't need 'our' votes/MP's...
When he was on “the rest is politics” podcast a few months ago – he ruled flat out talking with or working with the SNP
Isn't he just trying to avoid Tory 'In the SNP's pocket' campaign tactics?
Pretty obviously.
I find it difficult to see Labour under Starmer as anything other than Tory light.
Well most people won't, they will be seen as a sane alternative to the head bangers we have in charge at the moment.
I think the independence band wagon has sailed (and to mix metaphors hopefully sinks). A lot of the drivers have changed, a less obviously corrupt and self serving Westminster coming for one and the total shit show of Brexit for another. Anyone campaigning for independence who isn't slightly uneasy about how Brexit has gone should be having a quiet word with themselves, campaigning on sunlit uplands and faith in the future has a nasty habit of collapsing around your ears.
