So how come the SNP can sort a new leader out over the course of a weekend & it takes our 'beloved' Tory government about 6 weeks?
Scotland is what it is and always been, a mess,
actually it depends what you compare it to - compared to Nigeria or Argentina it’s rather ok. Compare to Denmark and it doesn’t look so great.
just like everywhere else, it suffers the same prejudices,
we have a few special prejudices of our own - which frustratingly we pretend are just a football issue but go much further.
class issues and corruption as the rest as well,
I’m not convinced if I was to score us for corruption that I’d put us high on the list; lacking in transparency, perhaps to save political careers yes, but actual cash in pockets corruption I wouldn’t put Scotland on the same level as even the U.K. but never mind some south European countries.
it’s why i tend to get a bit annoyed when this place makes Scotland out to be some socially better place,
it is marginally socially better than the rUK, but also aspires to be better (whereas parts of the rUK aspire to be worse).
you don’t improve something if you don’t admit it’s an issue.
I 100% agree. To me that’s why Humza wasn’t the best candidate as he’s too close to both the previous incumbents to say “Ok we got some stuff wrong”. But I’ll give him a chance to prove me wrong.
FWIW I think one of us has got it wrong on Forbes and Yousaf as to which one plays political games and which is genuinely interested in making things better for most people. In my view Humza is a politician through and through, if Kate had been more politics she’d have played down the Faith stuff rather than be so blunt about it and probably won - but it stuck me she wasn’t interested in manipulating her way to the top.
One thing you don’t see in England is entire streets coming out to blockade the deportation vans and and crews attempting to remove asylum seekers etc, for that I’m thankful to live in Scotland, albeit only 50 miles away from Carlisle (shudder, the only place I’ve been verbally confronted/called a * * **** and spat on for having a “bollocks to Brexit” sticker on the back window of my car
It's all the same, i live near Bristol, lots of similar activities and demonstrations occur, and nobody likes Carlisle, it's basically a waymark for how close you are to the border!
One thing you don’t see in England is entire streets coming out to blockade the deportation vans and and crews attempting to remove asylum seekers etc
Yes, you do, if you get out of your Scottish bubble! "Wha's like us?" Loads of people, actually. There is a huge level of smugness in Scotland about how non-racist they are, and it just doesn't reflect reality.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jun/11/protesters-block-immigration-officers-van-during-peckham-arrest
https://www.huckmag.com/perspectives/in-new-cross-an-immigration-raid-shows-cruelty-of-police/
Yes, you do, if you get out of your Scottish bubble! “Wha’s like us?” Loads of people, actually. There is a huge level of smugness in Scotland about how non-racist they are, and it just doesn’t reflect reality.
I stand corrected, cheers.
I don’t consider that i live in a Scottish bubble, I’ve been to London twice in my life.
It’s a pretty damning indictment of the political situation, when a man who has very little in the way of a track record of being particularly good at anything, gets the top job in Scotland.
That’s an observation rather than a criticism specifically of the SNP. The same can be said x 10 for our recent Westminster leaders
Is the talent pool that shallow in politics in general that these types of people are the best we can come up with.
Here's some of the talent you need to succeed in politics
1 Faces you'll need several of them
2 Skin like a rhinoceros hide
3 Mountaineers, lots of Mountaineers.. well they said friends in high places
For god's sake don't because you want to help people and believe in working for the greater good, they'll crucify you.
It’s a pretty damning indictment of the political situation, when a man who has very little in the way of a track record of being particularly good at anything, gets the top job in Scotland.
So that puts him in the same category as the current UK Prime Minister and in all likelihood the next UK Prime Minister.
Neither the PM nor the leader of the Opposition have a track record of being particularly good at anything. Humza Yousaf at least has more experience as an MSP than either of them have as MPs.
I guess it's a damning indictment of the political situation throughout the UK. Although I strongly believe that you get what you vote for.
Neither the PM nor the leader of the Opposition have a track record of being particularly good at anything. Humza Yousaf at least has more experience as an MSP than either of them have as MPs.
I guess it’s a damning indictment of the political situation throughout the UK
which is pretty much exactly what I said no?
Yes, I expanded.
a man who has very little in the way of a track record of being particularly good at anything, gets the top job in Scotland.
That's a good point - it did seem like a competition for the least worst candidate instead of the best. But it's an improvement on the UK government where the last three PMs have been demonstrably and consistently crap at everything before they got the top job!
The way I see it, even if he’s next to useless, he doesn’t appear to be down right evil/a sociopath/devoid of any empathy, so he’s an improvement on any Tory leader of the last few years for sure
But it’s an improvement on the UK government where the last three PMs have been demonstrably and consistently crap at everything before they got the top job!
I would dispute that. Few people thought that Liz Truss wouldn't be crap as PM but it wasn't until she was made PM that she spectacularly demonstrated just how crap she could be.
No one could have reasonably predicted it!
That’s a good point – it did seem like a competition for the least worst candidate instead of the best.
I'm not disputing that - but:
1. From all the holyrood SNP MSPs which one do you think would have been a better leader?
2. Even if you don't like the SNP, so its always a "least worst" choice, which MSP would you have?
So how come the SNP can sort a new leader out over the course of a weekend & it takes our ‘beloved’ Tory government about 6 weeks?
Eh? Nicola Sturgeon resigned on 15th Feb. New leader appointed 5 weeks and 6 days later...
Hmmm....so Forbes offered a place in government but a massive demotion from her previous role....and she rejects it. A predictable and anticipated response I'd have thought. Internal war forthcoming? She was quite unpleasant about him in the early debates so I can't say I blame him for this rather public virtual slap in the face.
No one could have reasonably predicted it!
There is a thread in this forum where many people predicted it. Only a few lone odd voices disagreed and said everyone was “underestimating” her.
I suspect not being in govt might suit Forbes just now. More time with her young family. Freedom to give her opinions on govt policies without being bound by cabinet collective responsibility. She's what 32? Plenty time to play the long game if she wants to. She seemed not too heartbroken when the result was announced.
Going forward from here will be a tricky shift for the SNP no matter who is leader. Plenty policy challenges. No route to indy 2. Support stuck at 45%ish.
There is a thread in this forum where many people predicted it.
I'm not reading the whole thread, who predicted that she would be so bad that she would be a shortest serving Prime Minister in UK history?
I think everyone underestimated just how bad Liz Truss would be.
I think Ernie's right, we knew she would be a disaster, it was hard to estimate just how catastrophic and short lived she would be, she was mind bendingly bad, even after Johnson had dropped the bar so low it was on the floor.
Few people thought that Liz Truss wouldn’t be crap as PM but it wasn’t until she was made PM that she spectacularly demonstrated just how crap she could be.
On this rare occasion, I agree entirely with Ernie; I thought Liz Truss was going to be wildly incompetent, but didn't anticipate the car crash that ensued, or the speed at which it happened!
Nah, many people said she had no idea, would create havoc economically, would be kicked out of the job in the blink of eye, would result in even harder policies towards asylum seekers, get ERG & Tufton St true believers into top government jobs, and would lead to a Labour lead in the polls that without her appointment seemed impossible for a generation… hopefully (and we’re not there yet) resulting in a Tory loss at the next election.
But I linked to one of the Truss threads… we could discuss it there if you’re really keen.
A predictable and anticipated response I’d have thought.
I reckon it was a poisoned chalice. With things like the HPMA'S, A9/A96 dualling, ongoing ferry problems, she would have been foolish to have been in the cabinet in any role and then have her hands tied, Rural Affairs just compouned that as she'd be the one held responsible.
Should there be a Humza! Yousaf! thread now as this one has more or less run its course?
Can we not do the exclamations? It seems very 5 years ago.
Thinks back 5 years. No Johnston as PM. Or Truss. No pandemic. No Ukrainian war. 'We'd' voted for Brexit but there still felt a glimmer of hope we'd get out of it. I made fewer effort noises.
I'll settle for that!
She was quite unpleasant about him in the early debates so I can’t say I blame him for this rather public virtual slap in the face.
it doesn’t send a message of someone pulling the party together and bringing the best talents of the party to the fore. I assume Ash isn’t getting offered anything either - if you noticed at the count Kate got a hug and was all happy smiles, but Ash got had a handshake and had a face like thunder.
Whether he likes it or not, he’s got some big jobs to fill - at the very least Finance, Dep 1st Min, Health, and an Environment minister who seems to be in chaos.
She was quite unpleasant about him in the early debates
I know it isn't the SNP way but contested elections necessarily involve a few hard truths being exchanged. Not sure her criticising his record was any worse that the attacks on Forbes for her beliefs.
Her attack on him was also in effect an attack on the record of the government she served in.
“You were a transport minister and the trains were never on time, when you were Justice Secretary the police were stretched to breaking point, and now as health minister we’ve got record-high waiting times.
That's unusually blunt from one serving minister to another of a government that is still in power and hoping to remain so. A collection of quotes that will I am sure return to haunt the SNP at the next election - out of the mouth of the finance secretary of the time.
To me it was both naive politics and exceptionally negative positioning. The positioning of someone wanting to look the least worst, not the candidate for a positive future, building on the work of the government she was voluntarily part of. It's the language of the opposition leader about an incumbent not two members of the same cabinet.
To me it was both naive politics and exceptionally negative positioning. The positioning of someone wanting to look the least worst, not the candidate for a positive future, building on the work of the government she was voluntarily part of. It’s the language of the opposition leader about an incumbent not two members of the same cabinet.
im not an snp member so how I perceive it may be irrelevant, but I found this refreshing. Pretending everything is good because your party did it is just dumb party politics. Her message was clear - if we want Indy we need to appeal to people who don’t normally vote SNP (ie opposition voters) so actually asking the questions the opposition are asking seemed to me to be quite clever (in terms of appealing to the nation - if not your own members). I doubt that’s what lost her the vote - it was very close in the end. If she had been able to simply say “yes I attend the local free church because it’s an integral part of my community but it doesn’t govern every decision I make in life” right at the start she would have shut down the “faith” stuff and I think won. She couldn’t do that because she was too honest (there probably something in the bible about honesty!).
Much as I would like to bash the SNP, the Tory leadership race also involved candidates telling each other how disastrous their time as Tory minister was. I think it's a universal thing.
Poly, can't agree with you there. If she'd said 'Yes I know there is work to do on transport, yes there is more we can do with policing and health post pandemic is a huge concern we must address. And I'm the right candidate to do all this' I'd see your point. Give your audience credit for having enough intelligence to joint the dots whilst acknowledging the work to do and being positive about being the one to do it. But positively is not really the wee free way 😉
I think it’s a universal thing
I'd be amazed if you can find such a demolition of a fellow cabinet minister from the mouth of any leadership candidate, apart from maybe that bastion of good judgment Ms Truss.
Yeah, as soon as she worked the negativity into the campaign i think she lost, the reality of the SNP and Scottish Government, is that most politicians are just the figureheads, they aren't the experts, the team within the department are, watching the Scottish Government you just see a lot of vetted questions being asked and worked responses provided from reports in front of the ministers.
To be the FM or Deputy FM you need to be a good orator, you have to have some quick reflexes for those times where an immediate response is required, and you need to be likeable, and also pretty much 'vanilla'. The 3 candidates for me didn't really meet all that criteria, and in the end Humza was the least worst candidate.
I think you look back now and see that Sturgeon was pretty much made for that position through her development in government, from a quiet newbie, to Salmonds sidekick to being her own boss, she also had a bit of the golden period as well, i don't think Humza is going to be as lucky, it sounds like a lot is coming his way as FM, both in government and internally within the party.
The 3 candidates for me didn’t really meet all that criteria, and in the end Humza was the least worst candidate.
If we can believe the membership numbers then something like 20,000 of the 70,000+ didn't vote for any of the candidates.
If we can believe the membership numbers then something like 20,000 of the 70,000+ didn’t vote for any of the candidates.
Turnout:
UK 2019 GE - 67%
SNP Leadership Election - 70%
Turnout:
UK 2019 GE – 67%
SNP Leadership Election – 70%
It is not really comparable is it?
You would expect a significant number of the UK population to have zero interest in politics and more to struggle to find the motivation to vote.
I would expect anyone who finds the motivation to join a political party, and pays money for the privilege, to be sufficiently motivated to vote.
Apparently not, although it could be due to exaggerated membership claims.
Labour Party leadership election - 63%
If we can believe the membership numbers then something like 20,000 of the 70,000+ didn’t vote for any of the candidates.
Seems reasonable. 30'000 members left. Another 20'000 haven't left (yet) but are pissed off/lost interest enough to not bother voting. Many members might not take the leave/stay decision until their subscription is due but have meantime disengaged.
After all 48% of those who voted chose the candidate who doesn't support continuity.
Labour Party leadership election – 63%
LD was 57.6% last time round, and if you've ever seen the federal conference pack, this is a party that really likes voting on stuff
Labour Party leadership election – 63%
That is hardly comparable to the SNP. Unless the SNP allows affiliated supporters and registered supporters to also vote.
I assume only people who are individual members are allowed to vote in SNP leadership elections.
By definition I don't expect someone who isn't an individual member of the Labour Party to have the same motivation as someone who is.
If they registered as individual members (ie those included in the turnout figures), then having the right to do so due to being a member of a union changes nothing. 60-80% turnout for a party leadership contest is normal. Nothing odd about 20%+ of SNP members not voting.
Apologies but I don't understand your point. Not everyone who is entitled to vote in Labour leadership elections is an individual party member.
If you think that makes it no different to SNP leadership elections then fair enough. Personally I think it is a poor comparison but there you go.
Three routes to getting a vote in the final stage of the 2019/2020 Labour leadership contest (and being included in turnout figures).
- join as a normal individual member (and pay fees)
- register as an individual member to vote if part of an affiliate (not automatic)
- pay £25 for the right to vote for leader/deputy (but no other voting rights)
All three routes suggest a strong motivation to vote.
Turnout in the SNP leadership vote seems normal. Only the old biddies in the Conservative Party had a larger turnout.
All three routes suggest a strong motivation to vote.
And yet you say that a third don't.
Poly, can’t agree with you there. If she’d said ‘Yes I know there is work to do on transport, yes there is more we can do with policing and health post pandemic is a huge concern we must address. And I’m the right candidate to do all this’ I’d see your point.
Well I think if it was an election campaign for the party that would be right. But it wasn't this was why she was better than Humza. Humza can say "I've done all those roles so I know the portfolio, Kate's only done finance/business so doesn't have the breadth to be leader". She had the opportunity to say "aye but you were shite at all of them" which is what the audience were thinking! Blunt, forthright, not papering over the cracks. I think the public like that. Had she been appointed as leader I think it would have helped her strategy of getting opposition supporters feeling this was a new SNP that they should at least listen to.
Give your audience credit for having enough intelligence to joint the dots whilst acknowledging the work to do and being positive about being the one to do it. But positively is not really the wee free way
I think her mistake was forgetting who her audience were (the problem of TV debates - for an internal matter). Whilst what she said appealed to the masses it didn't sit so well with the party faithful, but I remain convinced it was her faith not her faithfulness to former colleagues that meant she missed the magic 50%. I mean Humza must be chuffed he got in, but there must be a bit of him (and his team) going - well that was a bit skin of our teeth.
If we can believe the membership numbers then something like 20,000 of the 70,000+ didn’t vote for any of the candidates.
Those numbers don't surprise me at all. Email addresses that you don't check. Postal addresses that you no longer live at. But direct debits or automatic c/card renewals mean your membership just rolls over. I'd see it as apathy rather than a purposeful didn't vote. There were only 3 spoiled ballot papers.
but I remain convinced it was her faith not her faithfulness to former colleagues that meant she missed the magic 50%.
Her faith wasn't a problem. Her opinions were (of course, her opinions came from her faith but an explanation is not the same thing as an excuse).
Also, if anything happened on Sunday morning it would be Monday before she could do anything about it and FMs have to always be on call. Or does the unbreakable rigidity of her faith only apply to certain matters?
if anything happened on Sunday morning it would be Monday before she could do anything about it and FMs have to always be on call.
You must surely be aware that many Free Church members work on Sundays? Do you believe that the hospitals, fire services, police, social workers etc have some sort of religious bar on employment?
