I think we might be doing this again in the not too distant future
It's not a once in a generation vote then?
So we appear to have a First/Prime Minister whose election is based on the vote of a few tens of thousands of people.
No we have a leader of the SNP based on the votes of 24k people.
The position of First Minister is based on the votes of 1.2 million people.
No we have a leader of the SNP based on the votes of 24k people.
I seem to recall that Sunak was elected as the leader of the Conservative Party. There seem to be outrage on here & in other places about how undemocratic it all was. I haven’t noticed the same being mentioned in the SNP election.
Okay it's an outrage.
It doesn't change the fact that the post of First Minister, like the post of UK Prime Minister, is not an elected post.
Has the Scottish parliament even the power to call a snap election?
In which case you're not paying attention.
Has the Scottish parliament even the power to call a snap election?
In a roundabout way, yes.
In a roundabout way, yes
The Scottish Parliament has the power to call an election or the First Minister?
The UK PM can call an election by asking the King to dissolve parliament, how does it work for holyrood?
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/46/section/3
Parliament votes - by a 2/3rd majority - to dissolve.
First Minister has to be elected by the parliament so at this point we are either FMless or we still have the old one.
I seem to recall that Sunak was elected as the leader of the Conservative Party. There seem to be outrage on here & in other places about how undemocratic it all was. I haven’t noticed the same being mentioned in the SNP election.
Bearing in mind that the Scottish Parliament still has to approve (and remember, SP isn't first past the post and absolute majorities are not supposed to be normal) then the FM has to be approved of by at least one other party. Hence why Forbes or Regan were going to be problematic.
So yes, the Scottish system is better than the Westminster system in terms of consensus.
MSP
Full MemberFrom the pictures I have seen, Forbes at least has been able to “oscar runner up” her response and pretend to be pleased for Yousaf, whereas Regan has been unable to hide her outrage at not winning and looks ready to commit murder.
That's because Regan ran on a divisive campaign that she thought was strong, got annihilated, and knows she just ended her meaningful political career. Also that her allies are all going to be absolutely raging. Whereas Forbes knows she's a close runner up with a fairly wobbly winner. She's just possibly got the best result out of the three of them.
THing is, politically Yousaf is the one I want leading, and he represents the parts of the party that I most wanted to win and that hopefully are the heart of the thing now. From that point of view, great.
But, he's not brilliant. He shouldn't have to be, except that the job of SNP leader is to withstand and deflect endless lies, brickbats, abuse, media bias, selective quoting and general *ery. I think he could be a decent leader without all that, I'm not at all convinced he can deal with all that stuff. It's basically two separate jobs and you have to be good at both.
I hope it works out OK. Of course anything other than a majority/near majority is going to be seen as a disaster, as if the SNP's achievements to date were just inevitable rather than incredibly unlikely, in a system specifically designed to prevent it. So if he merely leads the party to a victory in the next elections, rather than a ridiculous landslide, it'll be difficult for him. And his enemies in the party have the power to make him look terrible, in a Corbyn labour sort of a way- I predict the regressive wing of the party will snipe and niggle and work hard to create shit stories in the press for as long as they can then they'll * off into a Real SNP which will die without a trace after one election but will be treated by the entire media as being a real thing, like CHUK.
I'm just hoping that now Humza has won he can now direct an investigation into why rangers get so many penalties!
then they’ll **** off into a Real SNP which will die without a trace after one election but will be treated by the entire media as being a real thing,
or Alba northwind?
Dammit I was going to say Alba as well!
Sorry - regardless of how one feels things should be in 95% white country, you don't expect that kind of speech? That doesn't make sense. What he says is factually unobjectionable- the only thing left to dispute is how one feels about how things should be in a 95% white country.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-scotland-race-idUSL1N3531Q5
I found Yousaf’s speech about white people in senior positions in Scottish public life quite alarming:
I didn't find it alarming. What is alarming about it?
I don't feel that's an appropriate tone to take when speaking about any ethnic group. By regardless, I mean I'd expect people with different views on representation in public life, to agree that this isn't an appropriate tone to use when speaking about it.
I agree it's factual. The fact check tackles a misrepresentation that I did not make.
Some people find having white privilege pointed out to be alarming. I mean my god, if they take away our overwhelming control of all senior political posts, who knows what they'll take away next!
Wasn't careful enough with what I said... it was the way he said it that I found alarming.
it was the way he said it that I found alarming.
I still don't understand. You might not agree with him that the overwhelming dominance of white people in many senior public positions is a significant problem, perhaps it isn't, but why did you find the way he said it alarming?
If he had interspersed his speech with cries of "Allahu Akbar!" I might have found it alarming.
But as it is the only thing I found slightly alarming was the sight of a man with South Asian heritage speaking in a Scottish accent - it's not something that I see every day.
It's the delivery of a long list of negative things interspersed with "white". Sounds pretty vilifying, not good when it comes to race (or religion etc.).
By "way he said it" do you mean the tone? Because that's just normal weegie, they could make a shipping forecast menacing.
Or are you latching onto the "he's a racist" meme?
Edit: too slow.
That video is entirely without context, do you not think it was edited that way on purpose? Not sure how any of those positions are negatives either.
Sounds pretty vilifying
I didn't find anything vaguely "vilifying" about his comment.
He wasn't vilifying anyone.
It's a video made by racists (sorry, people who are 'concerned' about race) in the hope that racists and others who are 'concerned' about race will spread it far and wide.
So well done.
Interesting that a channel with 86 subscribers popped up on your feed. Your youtube history must be very specific.
Just had to look up what weegie meant (Glaswegian). Yes I mean the tone (as I said), specifically how he says "white". The positions obviously aren't negative, the negative is that the people holding them are white.
I haven't seen any memes and hadn't seen the ways in which people have misrepresented him. He was trending on Twitter and amongst the tweets were a few including this video, and not from obvious bigots either. I later looked up the video on YouTube to post.
I'm afraid I did find it vilifying, and yes it might have been due to his natural tone. Obviously I get his point and that he isn't inciting violence.
I remember this one from an old boss I had, who wanted to run me down but couldn't actually find any issue with my work. No, it wasn't what I did, it wasn't what I said, it was "how I said it". And when I asked what that meant, she'd say "you know" or "it's hard to explain". And what it meant was, "I want to criticise it but I don't have a good reason and I don't want to admit to the bad reason."
If you're going to discuss an issue with lack of representation and diversity, and the disproportionate whiteness of our senior positions you shouldn't say white? I'm sure it's just coincidental that this also makes it impossible to talk about those issues.
Incidentally this is exactly the sort of thing he's going to have to get really good at handling. He shouldn't have to, but he will, because it's going to be nonstop.
Interesting that a channel with 86 subscribers popped up on your feed. Your youtube history must be very specific.
Didn't see your post while I was typing mine. As I later said: he was trending on Twitter and amongst the tweets were a few including this video, and not from obvious bigots either. I later looked up the video on YouTube to post.
The tweet was this one, it's currently the 2nd from the top when you click his name from the trending topics list:
https://twitter.com/WilliamClouston/status/1640400057286508577
Really, the SDP is your definition of 'not racist'?
You really are showing your true colours, aren't you.
I didn't know anything about the SDP until now, and what I said was "not obvious bigots".
I regret bringing this up now. He's absolutely right in the points he makes, and of course he can use the word white. I'm afraid I got taken in by this tweet and video. Never heard him speak before, popular tweet, seemingly legitimate person tweeting it. That was how it made me feel, that's what I've said about it.
It’s a video made by racists (sorry, people who are ‘concerned’ about race) in the hope that racists and others who are ‘concerned’ about race will spread it far and wide.
So well done.
Just noticed you made two posts in a row, and I'd missed this one. In hindsight, it indeed is bait. I'm not racist or concerned about race.
No, it’s cause you’re an ignorant racist who likes to post ignorant racist shite.
I'm not, and I don't think I've said anything racist, but I agree in hindsight the video I posted probably had racist motives.
Assuming your last post is genuine, I'm sorry I got so worked up.
I know people who have campaigned for Humza in the past so I've heard a lot of the stories that didn't make the papers. Believe me, they are worse than the ones that did.
You are not the only one who is going to be taken in by this but please please think carefully and investigate before reposting random twitter stuff.
I've just got out of bed because I wasn't sure if I'd remembered to say sorry. I hadn't, so sorry.
It's ok Bruce. I've learnt somethings from our conversation.
I'll take care. I'm pretty savvy but this one got past my defences.
Well, I feel like a dick now 🙂
I regret bringing this up now.
To be honest I am glad that you did express the opinion that you found Humza Yousaf speech "alarming". It gave you the opportunity to hear alternative opinions.
I don't know how valid Humza Yousaf's comment is, I have never looked into the issue of minority representation in Scottish public office, but I do know that there is nothing alarming about his comment, nor do I see him vilifying anyone.
I don't see anything negative about the issue of Yousaf's speech being discussed though, it allowed different perspectives to be considered.
Looking ahead, I'd like to see Forbes being offered the health role.
Two reasons. One, she's obviously popular in the party and may well be a FM in waiting. I think she has to have something. The health role will mean she's tackling issues like assisted dying, conversion therapy, and abortion clinic buffer zones. It'll be a chance to show that she genuinely can separate her faith from her job.
Two, it'll give a fairly clear answer to the question of whether she could have done a better job than Yousaf as she suggested during the debates.
I see the point but would it not be better to put her talents to use in areas where conflict with her faith is less likely?
Assisted dying is so important to me that I do not want anything to risk the progress we have made in Holyrood.
Edit. Assisted dying bill as it should be will be on a conscience vote not whipped or given a party line to toe
By “way he said it” do you mean the tone? Because that’s just normal weegie, they could make a shipping forecast menacing.
This.
I see the point but would it not be better to put her talents to use in areas where conflict with her faith is less likely?
I get what you are saying, but given the closeness of the result, the question of whether she should be FM is always going to come up. She says she can separate her faith from the job and I'd like to see that proven before the next leadership election.
If it turns out she can't do the job because of her faith, punt her somewhere her faith won't affect her job and we can forget about her as a realistic FM candidate.
I would like to acknowledge and applaud the robust but ultimately reflective dialogue over the last couple of pages. Well done to those involved. It doesn't happen often.
Having said all that: there is a problem with bigotry in Scotland. A black man was choked to death by Scottish police in 2015...and the public inquiry still hasn't finished. Social mobility is terrible. And I don't think calling white people white is offensive.
But I don't find the rhetorical device of reciting a bunch of Scottish government jobs and telling me they're all held by white people very compelling - because Scotland is 96% white. It might be much more compelling to tell me what school each one went to (but admittedly not very relevant to the debate in which he was speaking) - a lot of other private schoolkids dominating political and government life.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sheku_Bayoh
https://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/census-results/at-a-glance/ethnicity/
You make a good point @politecameraction. The death Of Sheku Bayoh in custody is horrific and I for one am not reassured by the results of the various inquiries into what happened. I would like another inquiry. I'm not sure what options are open to us but the current situation is not good enough.
However it's worth pointing out that in much of Scotland asking the question" What school did you go to?" Has an entirely different meaning.
The Bayou inquiry is gonna continue until 2024!
in much of Scotland asking the question” What school did you go to?” Has an entirely different meaning.
Absolutely - it's a twofer. I wouldn't expect the relevant split at the top level of Scottish politics or civil service to be Prod/Catholic though.
I wouldn’t expect the relevant split at the top level of Scottish politics or civil service to be Prod/Catholic though.
I am thoroughly irreligous, but I wish I shared your confidence.
It is clear that the inquiry process is too slow although it is more important to be correct than to be swift. Currently we are neither. The committees in holyrood also need to be beefed up.
Scotland is what it is and always been, a mess, just like everywhere else, it suffers the same prejudices, class issues and corruption as the rest as well, it's why i tend to get a bit annoyed when this place makes Scotland out to be some socially better place, you don't improve something if you don't admit it's an issue.
As for Humza, he'll be fine, not the best, but not the worst, i think he can probably get an easier time as FM than he would in his old positions, glad he beat Kate Forbes, i don't tend to care about her religion, or beliefs, i just think she comes across as slightly too 'political', and more caring of individual goals, rather than party, and voter goals, might be wrong, but it's a personal opinion from what i've seen of her through this campaign and a bit from the Scottish Parliament.
Everywhere has the same issues… but to dismiss that the degree that those issues are a problem north and south of the border vary… the “they’re all the same” tactic… is an annoying way of shutting down debate. As is it to pretend that other are saying that things are perfect, when in fact they are just pointing our differences in the degree certain issues are a problem north and south.
Absolutely – it’s a twofer. I wouldn’t expect the relevant split at the top level of Scottish politics or civil service to be Prod/Catholic though.
would be interesting data. My gut feel is representation by religion, by ethnic origin, by gender, by educational background will all be poorly distributed in the “top jobs”. Obviously not zero representation but not what you’d expect from the population.
I don’t think for one minute that Humza’s rise to the top suggests we’ve found equality - he was private school educated. Even if you don’t attribute his success to Hutchinson’s Grammar School, it’s clearly a sign that he has parents who (a) cared/had aspirations (b) had some money.
Scotland is what it is and always been, a mess, just like everywhere else………….
One thing you don’t see in England is entire streets coming out to blockade the deportation vans and and crews attempting to remove asylum seekers etc, for that I’m thankful to live in Scotland, albeit only 50 miles away from Carlisle (shudder, the only place I’ve been verbally confronted/called a * * **** and spat on for having a “bollocks to Brexit” sticker on the back window of my car
