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I'm asking as I know someone in Kent whose grandparents lived in some town where three rivers meet, and which made the news when it flooded 5-6 years ago, with the media screaming that the government and EA should "do something" as these riverside properties had flooded.
Yalding. I'm the Environment Agency Project Executive for the feasibility study in the Yalding Area. It's a long standing issue and an extremely challenging area to work in.
Whhhhaaaaaa...?
It's true, the border with Yorkshire is completely open 🙁
I do like the idea that flood defenses, recent changes in land use and immigration are the reasons behind flooding in the Lake district. Not just the wettest part of the UK getting record levels of wetness.
we are lucky to have such titans of thinking on this forum
Not just the wettest part of the UK getting record levels of wetness.
Said yo mama.
Sorry about that...
Well yeah numb nuts but the point is it's the towns that are flooding which is partly due to inappropriate planning, increased drainage of agricultural land. It's pretty common knowledge that the hydraulic capacity of the basins has been significantly reduced and there a number of pilot projects 're-wilding' significant parts of these catchments to slow flow etc starting up at the moment. 'It's a thang - 4 real'. The rains were exceptional - I know i seed them with my own eyes and everyfink and would have caused flooding but the way we're responding to floods is with concrete meanwhile blaming climate change for the increase in flooding, which is only a tiny factor at the mo. It's the same reason you've got no groundwater left down south, because for for 1000 yeas we've looked at water on the land and decreed it a bad thing that we've got to get rid of.
Back on topic,
My elderly parents were rescued at lunchtime, they're on both BBC and Sky news helicopter footage being rescued from the garage roof with the dog.
The closest I could get was about 300yds or so away from the house.
Apparently they've had over 6 feet of water in through the ground floor.
I'll head back down tomorrow morning to see what I can do, probably not a lot.
That took a turn for the worse 😯
Hope things are stabilising (at least) and getting better (hopefully) for all caught out.
Wrote up a few case studies of the past floods for GCSE Geog students and looking back here and in the 19C the similarities and differences are interesting.
Any environmental workers and/or geographers in the area? I am intrigued by the amount of damage on the W side of Helvellyn. Landslips are not uncommon on this stretch and yet it is one obvious stretch of fellside that has forests alongside. Ok so the higher fell is barren and saturated so you get a lot of immediate surface run off, but the middle and lower slopes are forested that should give some protection? what's the informed explanation?
FYI - http://www.cumbriacrack.com/2014/01/28/lake-district-conference-trees-can-reduce-flooding/
Ditto, was the road collapse caused by erosion of the river undercutting the road or water coming from the W side or something else.
Excuse the random questions, and possibly the untimely questions (if insensitive) just love [s]proper[/s]physical geography!
Stabliser - would be interested in studies of impact of issues such as concrete/surface ruin-off versus agriculture/forestry - any links?
Not wanting to sound like I'm playing devil's advocate, but did these places flood 100 years ago?
Car isle...clues in the name.
It's pretty common knowledge that the hydraulic capacity of the basins has been significantly reduced and there a number of pilot projects 're-wilding' significant parts of these catchments to slow flow etc starting up at the moment.
Release the Beever!
Not wanting to sound like I'm playing devil's advocate, but did these places flood 100 years ago?
Yes. Carlisle had a famous flood in 1822 with water halfway up Rickergate which is... well... Almost exactly where is was on Saturday.
So the potential has always been there? Its the frequency - possibly - and greater population density that are the changing factors?
the old bridges that have been washed away are an indicator that this was a spectacular event by historical standards...unless of course these old bridges have been knocked down and rebuilt a few times in the past.
Busting a rainfall record once, and then again 5 years later does sound ominous though.....if it fits the pattern of warmer atmosphere means more precipitable water content then there is plenty more leeway on the upside for future events to be more intense.
Maybe the sort of industrial heavy rock armoured huge flood drainage channels that alpine villages use to deal with snow melt may be more appropriate in future years for the lakes...although that will deliver water even faster to Carlisle and Cockermouth.
Maybe worth considering the voting record on Climate Change of 2 of the Cumbria MPs that have been all over the telly sympathising with their flooded constituents over the last 24 hrs
How Rory Stewart voted on Miscellaneous Topics #Consistently voted against greater regulation of gambling Show votes
Generally voted against measures to prevent climate change Show votes
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24964/rory_stewart/penrith_and_the_border/votes
How John Stevenson voted on Miscellaneous Topics #Generally voted against greater regulation of gambling Show votes
Generally voted against measures to prevent climate change Show votes
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24799/john_stevenson/carlisle/votes
Not sure where this is but not what you expect a high street to look like;
That's Cockermouth.
Walked along that Main St at lunchtime today - bloomin inspiring seeing the work going on. There was no feeling of "woe is me/victims", just folk with their sleeves rolled up and wellies on, the council out in force clearing and washing and loads of positivity - even the notorious Traffic Wardens were helping some old fella with a sore back and ignoring vehicles parked on (muddy) double yellows.
Cumbria is open for business and pleasure folks, so don't stay away.
The Whinlatter Pass is shut tonight to get JCB's in, but will be re-opened tomorrow.
Hope Keswick and Carlisle are bouncing back as quickly.
Why do idiots always film with their phones in portrait?
Why do idiots always film with their phones in portrait?
Indeed annoys the hell out of me, classic first world problem
Haters have to hate as the Americans like to, slag Cameron off if he doesn't visit, slag him off if he does. Yawm.
Tough times, many people are going to be displaced for a long time. Has anyone seen any appeals which have been set up ?
Tough times, many people are going to be displaced for a long time. Has anyone seen any appeals which have been set up ?
http://campaign.justgiving.com/charity/cumbriafoundation/cumbriafloodappeal2015
Just got a mail from the Rosthwaite YHA, no flooding issues to date so looks like a few days Lakes riding this Xmas is still on - Hurrah!
So, what wetsuit for riding Warnscale Bottom... 😆
for fund raising see here for a link (no association just saw it on t' web)
https://twitter.com/cumbriacf
There may be others. [i]Edit, too late see above too[/i]
It brings it home (I am just near Kendal) when you hear of a work colleague who has to move out (Lyth valley) to a flat as daughters bedroom under water.
But as mentioned above you just have to get on with it.
... even if you live on a hill the road below will flood and someone in an electric (hybrid) car will stall and the car safety go into safe mode blocking the road;) yes this happened.
Ride safe as they say.
just been out feeding the locals and the scenes of devastation are rather striking. sad to see folk will all their belongings just stren in the streets
THM, masses of studies in this, probably easier to start from the practice and work backwards
On the plus side all the sanitised trails are no more 🙂
No one feeling sorry for themselves on my delivery in Staveley just cracking on with the job in hand! Eagle and Child flooded but ok and Wilfs and the Hawkshead brewery survived unscathed :-).
Bridges are in a bad state closed today but reopened late on
Of course by far and away the most significant impact of the floods is that I now have to cook christmas dinner now the swan at newby bridge is under water. Harrumph.
Things that come to mind are will insurance pay for all the flooded cars and how quick, majority of people need a car to get to work, or tradesmen who have lost use of their vans need to replace them quite fast, along with tools.
If youre not insured because you couldnt afford it, where will you live, and who is going to pay for repairs,to your home.
If youre old or disabled, who is going to help you clean up, move, cook etc,
Do you still have to pay rent and or mortgage if your house is unihabitable.
Will you ever be able to sell your ex flooded home, and if you do will its value plummet.
If the comapany is flooded out you work for, who is going to pay your wages, if theyre not insured for buisness interuption.
and lots more unanswered questions
[url=
is open![/url]
Amos from KMB was on Radio 4 at teatime - came across very well and definitely upbeat. Open for business today!
Staggered at the devastation. Watching the water come over the Glass barriers I was amazed. They must be 7' high those things. Still looking forward to coming up in two weeks. I have the best reason to spend more money on fine ale now knowing I'll be supporting the local economy.
Good luck you lot. If anyone can get over this disaster its the stoical Cumbrians!
BBC news has just reported Carlisle police are putting on extra patrols because of the fear of looting !! 😯
immigration isnt helping matters
I don't know, we're going to need plenty of builders
Sad to see the thread being turned political
immigration isnt helping matters
😕
fear of looting !!
There were a couple of scrotes nicking stuff on Cockermouth Main St today apparently.
teamhurtmore - Physical geography nerd here too. Those fellsides west of Helvellyn that drain into Thirlmere are forested in parts, but coniferous plantations on steep slopes with thin soil. Deciduous woodland would struggle to establish and even then wouldn't slow surface run-off and lag time much - especially after autumn leaf fall. It's no coincidence that 'our' floods happen in winter when the trees are bare of leaves. I was wading through two feet of standing water 10 days ago on the River Cocker floodplain, 3 miles upstream of Cockermouth. The Derwent was bankfull for days then and the ground saturated. We then had record amounts of rainfall and gales to bring trees down. The result is no surprise.
We've had recent river restoration work here ([url= http://westcumbriariverstrust.org/projects/river-restoration-strategy/whit-beck ]Whit Beck[/url]) - put in after Prince Charles visited after the 2009 floods.
[img] 
[/img]
It worked beautifully, slowing down that tributary and using the rivers erosive energy across the floodplain. The new bridge in Lorton worked too - single span - it was right up to the peak of the arch
[img] 
[/img]
The old bridge blocked, act as a dam and collapsed - like the Braithwaite and Pooley Bridge ones this time.
My pic from 2009 (BBC pic of the day - go me!)
[img] 
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The defences along the River Cocker in town pretty much contained the water to the confluence with the Derwent in Cockermouth. Last time the Cocker took a short cut right along Main St and if you look back at the footage, you'll see the strength of the current in 2009, with motor boats struggling against it. This time flooding on the Main St was slow moving and at a much lower level.
Likewise, look at the amount of water those glass-topped walls in Keswick held back!
For me, the EA have done a pretty good job here. Without the recent works, Keswick and Cockermouth would be much worse off and we'd have been lucky to avoid fatalities.
Discussion point - how often in the Lakes do you see rivers held within stone built channels, concentrating the energy of any flood, firing debris downstream to the next arched bridge. Look at the Whit Beck works linked to above, where the river has been released from the stone channel and meanders have been re-instated. The farmer there lost no stock and there's less bedload/debris than last time. In less than a year, the wildlife benefits are evident.
Let rivers adjust and move and use up energy.
Record rainfall on saturated ground (steep, thin soiled fells) will always give record flooding.
Accept flooding will happen and adapt buildings.
The shops in Cockermouth were warned on Thursday and that warning was increased Friday. Most moved stock and are now sweeping out and mopping the tiled or stone floors they put in after the last flood. They'll be open before the week is out. It was months last time.
The newly built leisure centre in Workington is a planning cock-up - apparently the developers said that they could engineer out the risk of flooding....
Work with nature and concentrate on integrated solutions. Stop making it a political football - that just wastes resources.
Now get yourselves up here for the best biking, climbing, beer and sausage in England. We'll be out tomorrow night for soggy singletrack and Loweswater Gold.
Great post boxelder!!
+1
+2 boxelder, great post.
I'll be up in Ambleside mtbing then onto Daisey's caffe (and the obligatory mooch round Biketreks of course 😉 ) spending some money in the area on Saturday. They need money putting into the local economy more than ever. Looking at some of the pictures on tv was horrendous (growing up in the area I recognised a lot of images)
However even during the worst of the flooding Cumbrian's can still make a joke out of it, both these were on a Cumbrian FB page
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/4574C6DB-B617-4926-BB55-B8CCDDB1477D_zpsow19rvf7.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/4574C6DB-B617-4926-BB55-B8CCDDB1477D_zpsow19rvf7.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
This lad posted:
Soooo happy I've now got my indoor swimming pool. It's not heated but beggars can't be choosers!
[URL= http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/628BB883-4655-454B-8627-87DEE609B2F1_zpsek69ihxz.jp g" target="_blank">
http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah241/andywhiteside37/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-12/628BB883-4655-454B-8627-87DEE609B2F1_zpsek69ihxz.jp g"/> [/IMG][/URL]
Nice one Boxelder.
Cheers boxelder. Great post and sentiments
Love the Whit Beck case study.
FWIW, I read that W side of Helvelkyn was being used as a case study for mixing types of trees. Still not enough. Some blog from grasmere shows big landslips higher up on the exposed fell side.
Interested in that pic of the meandering river, which is the natural coarse of events on flat wide valleys, ox bow lakes and such like. However on steeper ground water/rivers will always find the quickest way down. When in flood doesn't the river attempt to "straight line" its route?
Sorry to upset some people on here but more people ,means more housing means less land to absorb surface water. Ruthin has seen a prime example of in appropriate developement
I mentioned George Monbiot a few days ago. Here's his opinion in today's paper.
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/07/hide-evidence-storm-desmond-floods-paris-talks ]Flood management[/url]
I mentioned George Monbiot a few days ago. Here's his opinion in today's paper.
He's got some good points. However the way he chooses to make them and the timing of it, seemed to put him squarely in the firing line for farmers and businesses who have once again been flooded.
Apparently it's disrespectful to bring it up while they're still mopping out their front rooms or it's disrespectful to blame the farmers who are trying to make a living from the very land that now lies under 2ft of water.
But yes, his point stands, it's not one solution of building ever higher barriers, it's a whole raft of measures, some of which people really don't want to hear. It's easier to just blame the EA for not building the barriers high enough...
He's got some good points. However the way he chooses to make them and the timing of it, seemed to put him squarely in the firing line for farmers and businesses who have once again been flooded.
He's been making these points for quite a while, he even wrote a book that talked about it quite a bit - maybe they should have listened to him...
He was on Radio 4 this morning with some guy from the NFU who basically refused to engage with the points he was making and remained insistent that they needed more dredging and higher walls.
He was on Radio 4 this morning with some guy from the NFU who basically refused to engage with the points he was making and remained insistent that they needed more dredging and higher walls.
A bit like this...
He needs to watch himself...
😀
Monboit mixes the points to maximum advantage not least the 1:100 risk and the whole issue of dredging.
Dredging is not, and never has been, a simple solution and the risk that it solves one problem (improves river capacity in one area) while creating another (increased risks of flooding downstream|) is taught in basic GSCE geog?!? Has anyone suggested it is a cure all?
Now then, form a queue, who wants to engage with THM in the argument nobodies having at the moment?
??
Flooding on this scale used to be described as a “once in 100 years”, or 200 years event. But in Cumbria, where some 30cm of rain fell in 24 hours, this is the third such catastrophe since 2005. Exceptional events are, perhaps, no longer exceptional.
This is simply a misunderstanding or deliberate misuse of statistics. Not an argument at all. Ditto, dredging is not a simple yes/no issue.
And on the ground plenty of debate re dredging including residents who are blaming a lack of dredging as an issue.
??