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Jesus @Edukator, you don't understand my post, but you're certain I'm attacking you? That's some over-developed persecution complex you've got going there...I'm not attacking you by the way.
The purpose of Stoicism isn't to understand or control the greater whole, it is to live happily within it.
Yes, but this assumes you are prepared to accept the Universe as being fundamentally rational, logical, and just. For those of us who aren't prepared to accept that all you can do is ignore the fact we are living in an irrational, illogical and unjust Universe. Ignore it real hard.
Which, like I said, is where Stoicism fell down for me and led me to keep exploring. Still haven't found 'it' yet but I suspect the important part is the journey.
Yes, but this assumes you are prepared to accept the Universe as being fundamentally rational, logical, and just.
Does it? The argument for the opposite is also possible, no?
Does it? The argument for the opposite is also possible, no?
Logos is quite an important tenet of Stoicism. You live in a rational logical universe and therefore if you live in accordance with Stoic virtue then you are living in accordance with the Universe.
It could be you just ignore this but then if you are struggling with meaning in your life then Stoicism doesn't really have an answer, other than to ignore it and focus on yourself. If you can just focus on yourself then great but if you always feel like you are trying to push down or run away from feelings of existential dread then another approach might be better.
I think Stoicism struggles for arguments against Nihilism beyond tautologies centered around Stoic virtue. If you are looking for answers to the question, 'What's the point?' I think you need to look somewhere other than Stoicism.
The geologist in me knows that it's taken an incalculable number of fluke events to even be walking this planet so I'm not looking for anything rational logical or just in the universe. It's worth acting so I and others can make the most of those flukes.
That's some over-developed persecution complex you've got going there...I'm not attacking you by the way
That's almost worth book marking ! 🙂
but this assumes you are prepared to accept the Universe as being fundamentally rational, logical, and just.
Stoicism's "universe of reason" asks you to accept that the universe contains a set assertable facts and from that you can deduce rationality and logos -logic (be they casual or conditional etc)- it has nothing to say about whether it's just or what the function or state of the universe is; chaotic or otherwise. Having said that, these are Greeks, so they both believe in Logos, and that fact that the Gods apparently live atop a very accessible mountain, so they could go and check and be back in time for tea, but never seem to bother...so it's probs wise to keep looking for a universal philosophy outside of their tradition.
The geologist in me knows that it's taken an incalculable number of fluke events to even be walking this planet so I'm not looking for anything rational logical or just in the universe. It's worth acting so I and others can make the most of those flukes.
Aye, it's what I take from experiences in conflict. People do irrational things, shit happens, no plan survives first contact so you have to be agile and flexible in your thinking to make best of that situation and achieve the intended outcome.
If you spend too much time trying to figure out the 'why' in that moment then you're burning time and are going to be further on the back foot and as the situation overtakes you, find you are beyond a point of positive control. And that can have quite terminal consequences.
As for existential dread, not a curse I have to deal with. I recognise my career path has unburdened me of such concerns, in it's place it has left me with some other conundrums to wrestle with. But they are manageable and ones I wouldn't change if I'm honest.
If you spend too much time trying to figure out the 'why' in that moment then you're burning time and are going to be further on the back foot and as the situation overtakes you, and that can have quite terminal consequences.
I don't think any philosophical belief takes the front seat when you are in a genuine life or death situation, does it?
The question I was struggling with recently was, if my life is going to be on balance more painful than joyful (or even more painful than neutral) what possible reason could I have to not just end it? I guess it's the kind of question that is going to plague you more after the life or death event which is the state you are going to spend most of your time in*.
I got really into Stoicism for a while but I found the Stoic virtue arguments to be tautologies. If you live your life according to Stoic virtue you will be content because you are living in accordance with Stoic nature (Logos).
'And if Stoic nature doesn't exist?'
'Stop being a Nihilist!', came the unsatisfactory answer.
Some people can get by fine either accepting there is a meaning they can't see (ie, faith) or they just learn to ignore it. Or they just aren't really bothered by the question in the first place.
Some of us just can't or won't accept that and have to look for answers elsewhere.
*Or at least I would hope it was
I don't think any philosophical belief takes the front seat when you are in a genuine life or death situation, does it?
No, but the principles of control, action, etc are still extant, just like emotions are.
You also have the added complexity influenced by leadership and responsibility, either of self and/or others.
But the severity of the situation can compel acceptance and positive action, so why when we have time do some slip from those principles and drift into rougher waters?
Some of us just can't or won't accept that and have to look for answers elsewhere.
Maybe the answer isn't to be found in philosophies?
Or is fitting things in a neat box, even if it's marked 'chaos', an innate human need?
I agree Stoicism is imperfect and although on the surface it resonates with people, its also flawed in many aspects and doesn't map neatly over the world today and what we know of it.
what possible reason could I have to not just end it?
Masochism ? Any cyclist knows there's a certain joy in suffering 🙃
I read some Flannery O'Connor which contains and odd mix of nihilists, idealists, good and bad. And a good read. Try her for answers or more to the point absence there of.
But the severity of the situation can compel acceptance and positive action, so why when we have time do some slip from those principles and drift into rougher waters?
Because when you are well fed, have shelter, and don't have anyone actively trying to kill you your mind finally has time to wander and you think to yourself, 'Why am I here?' which for some people, who have a tendency to go down rabbit holes, can be a very dangerous question.
I think the answer to your question is that we are all different and need different tools to live the best lives we can.
Maybe the answer isn't to be found in philosophies?
But again, we're back to the confront or ignore problem. Ignore requires some degree of faith which I simply don't have.
If you want to confront the meaningless of existence then I think philosophy is the only game in town.
Why am I here?
Easy, a fluke of millions of years of evolution. A genetic code string that got this far and may go further if you wish. Mix hedonism, carpe diem and enough forward thinking to avoid dropping oneself in the shit, and life's a ball. Anyhow I'm sleepy after swimming and the coffee cup is empty so time for a siesta. Night night.
Just for clarity I'm not arguing or asserting I'm right, just exploring. I personally take some of the Stoics stuff at surface level, because they were after all an early form of luxury beliefs and incredibly privileged people.
The poor and servant class didn't have the time to ponder such things, just surviving was a mammoth task.
I wonder if there's something in this with experiences. What are the unintended consequences of experiences on us and how that informs our perspective of such things.
I've always wondered why the men who stormed the beaches at Normandy outlived many of their civilian peers? On a deep psychological level did that experience shift acceptance of mortality and raise the threshold of things to flap about substantially?
How did those experiences alter the philosophical conundrums that may have been rattling around their head through the years?
Easy, a fluke of millions of years of evolution. A genetic code string that got this far and may go further if you wish.
I think that's the answer to the question, 'How did I get here?' which is obviously a very interesting question but not the one we're talking about.
Humans do seem to be natural pattern seekers and seem to be very interested in the reason things happen. I think it's a bit unreasonable to just expect people to ignore the biggest question there is.
Just for clarity I'm not arguing or asserting I'm right, just exploring.
And just to clarify, I'm not trying to assert I'm right (although sometimes I slip into doing that in philosophical discussions), I'm more just trying to explain why, even though I got really into it for a while, Stoicism didn't provide me with the tools I need (although, as I mentioned earlier, learning to accept how little control I have over my own body and mortality is something I credit Stoicism with).
In this case the seller that gets dropped when demand drops: Putin. Europe is only buying gas from Putin because there isn't enough available from elsewhere. If demand drops thanks to my (and hopefully your) efforts then Putin can be cut off
This isn't actually true, it's just something that you said. Gas is sold globally, it's fungible, where there's a willing buyer and seller there's a trade.
Now if we could organise a global boycott (and police it) you might have a point.
It's true if you could but see it but you don't want to as it's an inconvenient truth so people (probably including you) go on using an ICE car and burning gas. The very opposite of stoic.
well I bought an EV a while back (last I checked ICE doesn't run on Putin's gas anyway) but our central heating is indeed gas and there's not much likelihood of that changing any time soon.
Saying "it's true" isn't the most convincing argument TBH. What is the mechanism by which me buying £1 less gas means Putin gets £1 less in his pocket? Any not, say, any of the gas producers and resellers actually involved in my transaction, or indeed in the UK gas market, let alone the many other producers and resellers in the global market?
Saying "it's true" isn't the most convincing argument TBH.
It was the obvious eye rolling response to:
This isn't actually true, it's just something that you said.
It's now got to the point where were both repeating points already repeatedly made above and achieving nothing beyond trashing the thread which is negative use of the forum. Kind of ironic on a stoic thread. Still at least I'll make my last post on the thread knowing I was illustrating how people could be stoic and was driven off the thread by nihilism. Apologies to the others on the thread, the Mods, STW and all who sail in her.
Other people can read, no point continuing with this. I hope others can find the will to post something on topic.
Over and out. A stoic solution to the situation. 🙂