Two very bright people that I know of have died this week, let's celebrate their achievements rather than have emotional hand wringing please.
Maybe we'll have a Microsoft tribute product, after all Leigh on Sea has a Diana Memorial traffic Island.
I wanted to discuss the man's legacy from a sensible point of view (ie not hating). Very clever businessman - most people have visions but he controlled his company and produced the vision better than most I think.
Interesting that he has made computers into a brand, whereas most other companies were just trying to get them into as many homes/hands as possible. MS won that battle hands down - was Apple's pushing of the particular brand (post-iMac) a realisation of Jobs' vision for market domination, or was it a plan to create a cult/lifestyle option?
I've ordered 2 more Apple products in respect of him, including my first Mac computer. Well that's what I'll tell the Mrs it's for anyway.
I'm somewhat surprised by the outpouring of grief; he was certainly a great innovator, a technical wizard and had a vision which has shaped the world we live in, but he won't be remembered for being a nice guy, which to my mind is fairly important. Add in the profits made by Apple and consider the conditions abroad where iphones and the like are made and the hero worship begins to look a little bit silly.
In most people's vocabularies, design means veneer. It's interior decorating. It's the fabric of the curtains and the sofa. But to me, nothing could be further from the meaning of design. Design is the fundamental soul of a man-made creation that ends up expressing itself in successive outer layers of the product or service.
Now this is why apple have done what they've done. I would contend that all those who sneeringly dismiss Jobs are actually demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the driver behind apple's success.
Jobs' vision for market domination
no - I don't think so. He pushed the Next platform because he believed it was the correct thing to do, a good idea, because it was technologically sound.
Now it lives on in the Mac.
pretty interesting bloke if you ask me.
"Nice man" - do you think Winston Churchill, Lance Armstrong, Thomas Edison et al were/are "nice"?
That can be said for all corporations though, they all have dirty secrets most of it being where the items are made. Then there's the argument that the business from these places provides jobs that wouldn't be there so these people would have even worse conditions.
As for not being a nice person, well the press loves to write about famous and successful people having a nasty side but we all do.
The tribute side isn't so shocking when you think how many people are using a product influenced by him and Apple. The very products themselves are why your viewing them so easily.
Nice?
Hmmm, so being successful and being nice should be exclusive?
A fairly sad way to view the world in my opinion.
Nice
No reason for them to be exclusive, but over-emphasis of "nice" is typical British underachieving bollox.
Hmmm, so being successful and being nice should be exclusive?
A fairly sad way to view the world in my opinion.
Not sure where I said that, I pointed out what the press love to do.
Was aimed at the hardcore DrJ, who seems to be some kind of killing MACHINE, stamping in the still warm carcasses of his business rivals as he drinks a toast to their weeping women.
Silly.
Nice straw man you've got there, crikey. Make sure you include him in the family photos.
consider the conditions abroad where iphones
You mean in the same Foxconn factory where components for practically all phones are made? Yes awful isn't it? But that's global markets and emerging economies for you. Hardly Apple or Steve's fault.
consider the conditions abroad where iphones
China's suicide rate is unfortunately very high (3x the UK) but the conditions in the Foxconn are much better than average.
Apple seems to be like McDonalds, in that it attracts criticism for things that are far worse in many other companies, but its got the brand name to get the headlines in the papers.
So its ok because everyone does it. Really?
Apple seems to be like McDonalds, in that it attracts criticism for things that are far worse in many other companies, but its got the brand name to get the headlines in the papers.
...and therefore has the opportunity to do something about it that would influence the world in a better way.
Shame they can't be arsed, eh?
I heard on radio 4 today that he was a pretty tough B'stard, very controlling and hard to work with. I have difficulty reconciling these aspects of his character with the concept of 'nice'.
That said, I never knew the bloke.
As above, let's give praise for what he was and what he achieved, but its important to see the whole picture, and turn down the hero worship.
Ultimately, a great man in many ways, but with the same human flaws as everyone. I think that is a more fitting tribute to anyone rather than slavish hero worship.
Ultimately, a great man in many ways, but with the same human flaws as everyone. I think that is a more fitting tribute to anyone rather than slavish hero worship.
He was human - did anyone say anything different?
IMO he helped to make computers/gadgets look more interesting rather than dull beige boxes.
So its ok because everyone does it. Really?
No, its not ok, but neither is it a problem unique to Apple so why present it as such?
...and therefore has the opportunity to do something about it that would influence the world in a better way.
... like ensure the factory has good working conditions?
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/
"Up went a factory, up went a dorm. Up went an assembly line, up went a cafeteria. While other companies’ workers fended for themselves or slept under the tables they worked at, Gou’s employees were well fed, safe from the petty crime of a growing metropolis, and surrounded by peers and advocates."
You mean in the same Foxconn factory where components for practically all phones are made?
really? source?
the conditions in the Foxconn are much better than average.
really? source?
*cant be arsed..
Ooo look at the scotty policeman!
*cant be arsed
[i]for gods sake stop your stupid whiny bitchy moaning [/i]
Irony much?
I've been irked all day, but have been quiet all day out of the respect I'd give anyone who'd just passed away. But I'll rant here to release a bit of pressure.
All this press attention, blogging and forum posting is another sad reflection on our consumer and celebrity obsessed society. If I was a religious man I'd be pointing out that you shouldn't worship false idols. It's all a bit silly and Dianaesque is a good term for it. I can't wait for it to blow over.
Hopefully some good will come out of his death in the form of a legacy for cancer research; pancreatic cancer is a pretty mean disease, a friend of mine died from it two years ago in her late forties. Jobs did well living as long as he did.
1) He had a rather rare form of pancreatic cancer AFAIIK - his isn't really that relevant to others.
2) He wasn't always nice - show me a really successful businessman or politician who is.
3) It is a big company competing with other companies -and so they will use the same kind of supply chain.
So he wasn't a man who did the technical side of the innovation - but his record at Apple and Pixar does show him to be a business and packaging innovator. We need people like him to drive innovation and business.
I don't see any Diana-type hand-wringing, just people realising that - even if he was a not always generous nice person - he was significant.
really? source?
🙄
Foxconn is [b]the world's largest[/b] maker of electronic components including printed circuit boards.
...
Foxconn makes consumer electronics for a number of well-known companies, including:Acer Inc. (Taiwan)
Amazon.com (United States)[16]
Apple Inc. (United States)[17]
Asus (Taiwan)
ASRock (Taiwan)
Intel (United States)
Cisco (United States)
Hewlett-Packard (United States)[18]
Dell (United States)
Nintendo (Japan)
Nokia (Finland)[17]
Microsoft (United States)
MSI (Taiwan)
Motorola (United States)
Sony Ericsson (Japan/Sweden)[19]
Vizio (United States)
I assume you are equally angry with and boycotting those brands?
I like apple products and I'm writing this on one so that's something to thank him for
Difficult day though as the very rare cancer job's had is the very same one a guy in my team at work has so some tough discussions today, not least as the survival rate is zero. :-/
That can be said for all corporations though, they all have dirty secrets
Does that include Gofar?
Does that include Gofar?
No. They're not a corporation.
The tribute side isn't so shocking when you think how many people are using a product influenced by him and Apple
So will there be outpourings of grief when Bill Gates dies?
Do people realise what Gates has done for the modern world?
I'd like to think his philanthropy is from a deep seated sense of altruism and not a PR thing.
All this press attention, blogging and forum posting is another sad reflection on our consumer and celebrity obsessed society.
As one who is frequently concerned, perplexed and depressed by our consumer and celebrity obsessed society, I would have to completely disagree with you.
If you can't see the incredible impact that Jobs has had on our society then you're not looking hard enough.
In Jobs' case he actually does merit all of the press attention he is getting (but which actually he never seemed to court for it's own sake).
Like it or not, the man, his company and its products have had a big impact on all our lives over the last few years.
- written on my imac.
So will there be outpourings of grief when Bill Gates dies?
Can't say I've noticed huge outpourings of grief on here, just lots of geeks recognizing Jobs' influence on the world. I shall likely make similar comments regarding his importance to those I've made about Jobs. Doubtless even more threads will end up getting pulled, given the MS haters seem to have far more bile.
- written on my W7 netbook (with a proper keyboard)
just lots of geeks recognizing Jobs' influence
Haven't noticed that much geekery. Just lots of normal STWers from non geek to geek. Also your assertion that MS haters have more bile is bollocks. I rarely see any bile directed towards MS. Ambivalence? For sure. But for hatred, see any thread asking about iPhones.
You really don't think more people hate Bill? 😯
I'd write more, but I'm not getting into an argument over this, not today.
[url= http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/10/steve-jobs-disability/ ]read a bit of stuff on the net about him being a visionary blah blah blah, but this Wired article showed me a different side of the man, i think i'll admire him more for this than any aluminium coloured laptop[/url]
He'll be missed because of what he did and who he was.
Here's my tuppence worth: 😀
The doctors think it could have been a virus.
The funeral was poignant, but the reception was terrible.
10 years ago we had Steve Jobs, Bob Hope and Johnny Cash - Now we have no Jobs, no Hope and no Cash.
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If you can't see the incredible impact that Jobs has had on our society then you're not looking hard enough
Hmm.. incredible impact? There are a lot of innovators out there, the ideas in Apple products I'm sure would've made it to consumers anyway. Maybe more slowly, maybe slightly less polished, I dunno.
Most people don't use Macs, still. PCs are so ubiquitous (and brand-less) that we tend not to realise that they exist because of a few people and their decisions and market strategies.
In the early days Macs were terribly expensive compared to PCs, even more so than now. Without IBM's licensed PC idea computers would've stayed much more expensive I feel and seriously slowed their uptake.
Have't Apple always been higher end niche products? All well and good for advancing design and style, but in terms of the egalitarian ideal of putting enabling technology into as many hands as possible, it's pretty poor - surely?
As I said in the other [i]"Dianaesque Handwringing"[/i] thread mol, you don't actually have to use Apple products to feel the influence that Apple have had on design, style and consumerising complicated electronics.
Look at the concept Android phone before iPhone came along:
[img] 
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http://www.redmondpie.com/tablets-and-smartphones-before-and-after-the-iphone-and-ipad-images/
😯
I was questioning whether the influence on SOCIETY not just technology could be considered 'incredible' or not..?
I'll let the man himself answer that:
Jobs: The problem is I’m older now, I’m 40 years old, and this stuff doesn’t change the world. It really doesn’t.Wired: That’s going to break people’s hearts.
Jobs: I’m sorry, it’s true. Having children really changes your view on these things. We’re born, we live for a brief instant, and we die. It’s been happening for a long time. Technology is not changing it much — if at all.
These technologies can make life easier, can let us touch people we might not otherwise. You may have a child with a birth defect and be able to get in touch with other parents and support groups, get medical information, the latest experimental drugs. These things can profoundly influence life. I’m not downplaying that. But it’s a disservice to constantly put things in this radical new light — that it’s going to change everything. Things don’t have to change the world to be important.
-- http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2011/10/steve-jobs-disability/
What do you think he changed that had a significant impact on our lives? I don't mean refining something to make it more attractive or easier to use - what was completely different as a result of his influence?
I'm inclined to think that Pixar and Itunes were more significant impacts than Ipods or Iphones (which were a neater execution of existing technology).
In a nice way I read the cover of the Metro this morning and thought 'thats going abit too far'.
Steve Jobs - The man who changed the world.
Right. He sold consumer products that looked prettier than the competition and slightly better/different format.
Mobile phones, MP3 players and laptops without a keyboard.
It's hardly world peace now is it?
And you have achieved....?
MP3 players weren't just Apples.
Handspring/Palm had the first touch screen to market.
Also
http://www.geek.com/hwswrev/pda/ericr380/index.htm
What Apple were good at was making the product more consumer/mass-market friendly.
Steady on fella, your comment is coming across as alittle childish. Don't take things out of context. I'm talking about a newspaper sensational line.And you have achieved....?
And you have achieved....?
More than you'll ever know. 🙄
May I personally insult you now?
Interesting blog from Sephen Fry yesterday...an excerpt here:
As always there are those who reveal their asininity (as they did throughout his career) with ascriptions like “salesman”, “showman” or the giveaway blunder “triumph of style over substance”. The use of that last phrase, “style over substance” has always been, as Oscar Wilde observed, a marvellous and instant indicator of a fool. For those who perceive a separation between the two have either not lived, thought, read or experienced the world with any degree of insight, imagination or connective intelligence. It may have been Leclerc Buffon who first said “le style c’est l’homme – the style is the man” but it is an observation that anyone with sense had understood centuries before, Only dullards crippled into cretinism by a fear of being thought pretentious could be so dumb as to believe that there is a distinction between design and use, between form and function, between style and substance. If the unprecedented and phenomenal success of Steve Jobs at Apple proves anything it is that those commentators and tech-bloggers and “experts” who sneered at him for producing sleek, shiny, well-designed products or who denigrated the man because he was not an inventor or originator of technology himself missed the point in such a fantastically stupid way that any employer would surely question the purpose of having such people on their payroll, writing for their magazines or indeed making any decisions on which lives, destinies or fortunes depended.
Full blog [url= http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.stephenfry.com/2011/10/06/steve-jobs/ ]here[/url]
MP3 players weren't just Apples.
Noone wanted the shonky pieces of shit that were on the market before the iPod. 🙂
Get to the point Fry.
What do you think he changed that had a significant impact on our lives?
His vision and belligerence over the last 15 years turned most technology we use today from geek to chic. Probably the single most important change to society's view on technology, significantly increasing the usage and purchases of said items.
He turned Apple computers from a company losing $2bn a year in 1997, to the world's biggest company in 2011 at a value of $337bn. Nobody except the occasional computer geek had heard of Apple in 1997, by 2000 they were known by many as the company that made the funky looking computers that peoole actually wanted to buy, by mid 00's people knew it as the iPod company, and now everyone knows Apple for quite frankly everything!
He changed the way most people buy music. Like it or not, iTunes has revolutionised the music industry, probably more so than CD's did when taking over from Cassettes and Vinyl.
He incorporated technology into kids films in a way that was totally unforgettable because of it's results. Toy Story was a good story, but it will always be so well remembered for being a massive step change in the use of technology in Film Production.
Like him or not, Jobs impact on society has been enormous, and what is most impressive is that it has been through his total belief in making technology usable and removing the geek factor from it. A simple idea, but the way he has ruthlessly executed it to almost pinpoint perfection, you can bet it was ALL in his long term game plan! Got to be admired if nothing else...
And as for the comment about will Bill Gates be remembered in the same way... Well the thing is, despite everything he has done, Bill Gates is a geek. He'd admit it himself. And the problem with geeks is they are ultimately not understood or liked by the majority of society. The world needs geeks, loads of them, geeks are good, but geeks aren't cool and nobody aspires to being a geek! Jobs was the man that lead a group of geeks, steered them with a vision to make products that non geeky people would use happily, and to make the technology sexy. That's why he'll be remembered for so long by society.
RIP Steve, I hope Apple continues to do him proud by continuing to make technology more and more usable.
Going back to the issue of 'niceness', I'm sure you can be successful and nice, but I'm not sure you can be extremely successful in business and completely nice. Drive for perfection and/or profit aren't always compatible with niceness.
Personally, I've accepted that I'm too soft (nice by another term?) to ever be extremely successful. I'm happy to be reasonably so. I'm also glad that there are some people about who are so driven and visionary that they can do some of the difficult things that the likes of me would shy away from.
I'm not an Apple devotee, although I do have an iPhone, and have owned various Apple products over the years (Newton anyone?), but I can remember how my first experience of a Mac in about 1990 completely changed the way I looked at computers, and how my iPhone (my 4th smartphone) was an utter revelation from a user experience perspective. I'm not into hero worship, but in an industry where people continually put functionality above usability, one man stands out.
When Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen pops his clogs I hope there will be the same sense of mourning.
He's responsible for one wall in every house/bar/shop being teracotta in colour at some time or another. I for one, could not live without my scatter cushions.
I'm sure there's a handwringing Dianaesque App available.
What Apple were good at was making the product more consumer/mass-market friendly.
Yep - that was and is their entire ethos. People bitch that Apple only refine and don't innovate (while ignoring the innovations they do make) but that's not really what they are about.
Their vision, driven and evangelised by Steve Jobs, has always been to try to make computers and gadgets that [i]normal[/i] people can use.
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Steady on fella, your comment is coming across as alittle childish.
I was aiming for indignant. 🙂 Dismissing a dead man's entire life work because it didn't achieve [i]"world peace"[/i] seems a little churlish.
May I personally insult you now?
Feel free - I haven't achieved world peace either, despite writing to my MP twice now.
I own a Macintosh Classic.
Why don't you look up Acorn A3020 Computer?
Stop taking things out of context. My comment was in regards to the Metro headline and the irony was you expanded this.
Yes he was a very successful businessman.
GrahamS
I have not dismissed the man's entire life work at all.
A bit of perspective is in order.
That is all.
hora: I was mainly responding to Gary. I agree the Metro headline is a step too far, but to be honest I'd probably only water it down to "Steve Jobs - [u]One of[/u] the men who changed the world." (which isn't quite as punchy).
Gary: no shortage of perspective here. This whole "Dianaesque Handwringing" thing is bollocks though really.
I think everyone here would acknowledge that Jobs was far from perfect; I don't see anyone here calling him the "Prince of Hearts" or calling for him to be made a saint. 🙄
But he [i]did[/i] have a huge influence on the technology we all use today and how that has shaped our society (for better and worse).
If that is his [i]only[/i] legacy then I still think he's done pretty well and deserves a little respect (even if he didn't quite manage to achieve universal harmony).
how that has shaped our society
How exactly has any of it "shaped our society"? Apart from making people spend more money that they probably didn't have in the first place, perhaps.
He didn't invent music, or email, or the interwebz. Just another way of accessing them. So, it could be argued that he had zero impact on society, apart from causing the global financial crisis. 😉
Well, he hasn't changed my world, or that of millions of others, so for that reason, I'm out.
Why don't you look up Acorn A3020 Computer?
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Not sure what your point is there hora?
Now you are trolling.
Well, he hasn't changed my world
Not owning a smartphone, a tablet computer or a Mac, and rarely using the MP3 player I own (it's part of a DAB radio, which is something I don't think Jobs had anything to do with) I'd be tempted to say the same. However unless you don't use technology at all, it's very unlikely you don't notice his influence - PCs would likely operate a bit differently were it not for him.
Well they would still be plain drab white boxes instead of rounded/more stylised white plastic boxes.
I'd call him the head of a Consumer product revolution. He took existing products and improved packaging, marketing and visual content/useability for mass market usage.
Now you are trolling
Me? nope. What was your point about the Acorn? (I'm vaguely familiar with Acorn etc, having grown up at the the time when school "computer rooms" were full of BBC Micros and Macintoshes)
Well, he hasn't changed my world, or that of millions of others, so for that reason, I'm out.
I assume you wrote this on a teletype then?
What he did was make normal, non-techy/geeky people want computer or tech type gadgets because they were perceived to be cool/fun/easy to use/useful. The fact that they work very well is not necessarily the driver but it did mean that it was a combination of style and substance resulting in dominance of a market that would have sprung up regardless but would likely have taken longer and no doubt wouldn't have looked as nice (cf beige computers). It has affected/changed things but I don't think it's really changed society in a significant way. YMMV.
GrahamS - Why don't you just go out with him then?
And while you're at it, get a big tattoo of an apple on your bonce?
Oh, and you could live on only a diet of apples, like a mad horse.
GrahamS - Why don't you just go out with him then?
😛
I didn't like the man. I don't even particularly like Apple to be honest.
The only Apple gear I've ever owned is iPods and iPhones.
I'm just not blind to what Jobs achieved in his life. I'm not sure why some people are so keen to dismiss that.
"The world rarely sees someone who has had the profound impact Steve has had, the effects of which will be felt for many generations to come."
-- Bill Gates, Microsoft founder"We've lost a unique tech pioneer and auteur who knew how to make amazingly great products."
-- Paul Allen, Microsoft founder"He was a great man with incredible achievements and amazing brilliance. His focus on the user experience above all else has always been an inspiration to me."
-- Larry Page, CEO of Google
If he hasn't changed your life then I assume you don't use Microsoft or Google products either.
I assume you wrote this on a teletype then?
Silly.. it's not as if he invented computers.
Anyway.. some good discussion points here. Jobs vs Gates is an interesting one I feel.
I've never dismissed what he achieved in his life either.
I just have some perspective that MP3 players aren't that significant in the grand scheme of things.
I do like apples though, I've got a pink lady waiting for me as we speak.
The biggest impact techwise on my life has been the creation and presence of the internet.
I wonder how important the existence of a strong brand is in consumer uptake of something like this? Think of Sony Walkman - would we have decided we needed music with us all the time if they hadn't been a cool brand?
Having music with you all the time isn't something we all thought we needed and were waiting for a solution for, but somehow now it's important...? I suspect the creation of the iPod brand has helped that.
Silly.. it's not as if he invented computers.
Nope, just shaped how we interact with them. So unless Gary is using a pre-Apple era computer, then he is benefiting from that Jobsian vision.
(same goes for Gates by the way, and many other pioneers along the way)
Have't Apple always been higher end niche products?
What a stupid bloody question.
You don't get to be THE BIGGEST COMPANY IN THE WORLD by making niche products.
I'm typing this on a ZX Spectrum 48K actually.
I've got to nip down to the computer shop in a bit though, as my Quickshot 2 has conked out again. Too much Daley Thompson's Decathlon, you see.