[Closed] State Schools letting down brightest pupils

no, they can't. Unless you want to "reduce the gap between the best and worst performing" by dragging down the best/more able.

Probably not, but bear in mind that you don't need selective schools to have screening by ability. This was done in my state school back in the 80s in an attempt to staisfy the demands not only of the more able pupils but to also give some help to the less able.

so if you selected the brightest and then later compare them to everyone the brightest are brighter and private education is better than state education... Hardly shocking news is it?

As a teacher I really cannot see how a Grammar school system is beneficial.

The study also suggests that comparing the maths results of 18-year-olds would be even more stark because[b] 90% of English pupils drop the subject after GCSE[/b]. In many other countries, maths is compulsory up to the age of 18.

Is this correct? If so, then it's what I find most disturbing in the report.

I did well at a grammar, and I'm no expert but it seems to me the brightest will benefit from selection/screening. Given this report, can the arguments against it retain credibility?

Unfortunately, we aren't told the nature of other countries' schooling systems, so can't draw much of a conclusion as to what is best suited to our society's requirements.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

As a teacher I really cannot see how a Grammar school system is beneficial.

So teaching kids in classes appropriate to their ability doesn't benefit the kids or the teachers?

he may saying grammar schools would get the most money and the best teachers thereby exacerbating the divide between the best and the least able due to money.

it is no surprise that selection leads to better outcomes for the most able the problem is it also leads to worse outcomes for the least able.

the brightest in our education system are not the ones we need to worry about it the least able we need to help most

Personally I am pro selection but only on the condition we dont go back to the old 11 plus system and the tiers of education are such that all pupils get the best possible education. i would also reduce the numbers at Uni and leave that for the best of the best.
I can see the argument against it though
Al there is more to life than maths and I bet we kick their arses at media studies 😈

PS this just means if you select on ability you select on ability

Those pupils in England who are considered to be "high performing" are most likely to attend private or grammar schools, the report says, rather than being state educated.

So what's new. My grammar school was converted to a secondary during Harold Wilson's government, but kept "streamed" classes. I was in 1J2 (for jet stream ffs) and thick kids were in the R for remedial classes. Not very PC but the system worked. The the edict came from above to remove all streaming and my class of 20 became a class of 40. The teacher continued teaching the 20 "J" kids at the front and ignored everyone else.

A friend is taking her daughter out of state and into private education because she wants the best for her. State school has let them down, unacceptable levals of staff turnover, absenteeism and apathy are not conducive to good education, sadly.

We need Technical Schools.

nothing new is it

When I was at a private school, I wished I was in a state one. Parents were determined I would stay put though.

First reason : closest 'friend' lived 32 miles away (so I spent 95% of my free time - weekends/holidays - [i]on my own[/i], cycling around the New Forest!)

Second reason : [i]not[/i] being clever meant I was left behind. After years of being told I wasn't bright/clever/intelligent, it had quite a knock-on effect with my life....

A transcript from an episode of Yes Prime Minister aired in 1988:

[i]Bernard Woolley - Comprehensive education ought to be validated.

Sir Humphrey Appleby - Of course, but not invalidated.

BW - But if it was introduced to improve standards...

HA - Whatever gave you that idea?

BW - You mean it was to get rid of class distinction?

HA- Precisely!

BW - So that all children...

HA - Children? Who mentioned children?

BW I just...

HA - The Department of Education never mentions children! No, no, no, no, Bernard. It was to get rid of class distinction in the teaching profession. Improve the living standard of teachers, not the educational standards of children. Bring the NUT teachers up to the salary level of their rivals in the National Association
of Schoolmasters in the grammar schools.

BW - But the...

HA- When there is a Labour government, the Education Department says comprehensives abolish the class system. When there's a Tory government, they say it's the cheapest way to provide mass education. To Labour, we explain that selective education is divisive and to the Tories we explain that it is expensive.

That way, we have a happy relationship with the NUT and we educate our own children privately.[/i]

I think it is very dependant on where you live. My daughter goes to a village state infant school where there are 16 pupils in a class and she gets fantastic attention (she's very bright and I was worried she'd get bored or not be pushed). The middle school also has an outstanding OFSTED report and then feeds into several outstanding Grammar Schools (South Bucks so grammar school system still alive and kicking).

We have friends in Devon and it's a completely different kettle of fish so they are looking at private education.

Guess the house prices here cost as much as private education elsewhere so good job the schools are generally all very good!

In other news, it has been revealed that the pope is a catholic!

Not to worry though, by the time Pob has finished with his whole Free Schools nonsense, we'll soon be back to the 50's style educational apartheid that Dave and chums so yearn for.

The education system in this country hasn't served them so badly, after all?

Oh... and I note that that article concentrates on maths yet conveniently omits media studies 😉

The fundamental problem with grammar schools is the idea that your educational path is locked in from the results of one exam at an early age.

Teach by ability for sure, but its got to be a flexible system that allows movement and improvement, and based on at least attempting to do the best for all pupils, not just those that pass the test.

The the edict came from above to remove all streaming and my class of 20 became a class of 40. The teacher continued teaching the 20 "J" kids at the front and ignored everyone else.

I take it you were at the back, class size and streaming are different issues.

ridethelakes - Member

So teaching kids in classes appropriate to their ability doesn't benefit the kids or the teachers?

A-A was talking about grammar schools, not streamed classes within comprehensives. Last time I checked, it was quite a lot easier to go up a set or two in maths than it was to start in a new school. A child can do an awful lot of developing and catching up between years 7 and 10. We have enough barriers to social mobility in the UK already without putting more in, IMHO.

Pros and cons. You could push kids to develop the very best skills, or you could give them a well rounded social and personal education and development environment, and let the clever ones shine later at uni.

I'd have missed out on a whole lot of life experiences at school if I hadn't been to a comprehensive. Then again, I might've had a different outlook on life. This may or may not have been a good thing. After all, if you are bright and university bound, all you need to do at school is get good enough grades to get to 6th form college.

Not really news as has been stated. Streaming works but is frowned upon so you end up with class where the average grade is depressed due to the mix of abilities and the brightest not being catered for while those who struggle are put off because their needs are not being met. Therefore the median are covered but extremes are effectively an after thought.
Actually in my experience it's not like this but good teachers can overwork themselves trying to do their best for all.

Time for a lazy teacher barstewards line I feel. Is project not around yet?

Bright kids with good parents will normally find their way, if not at school then via the higher education system. I mean, how qualified do you really need to be at 16? My concern is that the kids at the bottom of the pile, societally and intellectually, get neglected and let-down, when they're the ones who need the attention. By all means segregate kids to some extent, although not permanently, but don't use that as an excuse to forget about the low achievers. That **** Cameron's idea to pay teachers in low wage areas less is a disgusting example of how to ensure that starting off low means staying low.
And what also needs attention is the prejudice that gives kids from "good" schools preferential treatment in universities and jobs.

Zimbo, unis actually do run a two teir system. I have been doing UCAS applications for a few years and we have been told that our kids are seen as being privileged and therefore the course tarrif does not apply they should achieve higher than the minimum to be considered whereas kids with a different background can even get in with less than the minimum. For the record I do not think this is a bad thing.

A-A was talking about grammar schools, not streamed classes within comprehensives

indeed

Definitely not a bad thing onehundred, although I'm sure those less-privileged kids need to demonstrate some potential to improve. And I bet that positive discrimination is still far outweighed by the number of relative thickos who get on in life because they went to the "right" school...

I did well at a grammar, and I'm no expert but it seems to me the brightest will benefit from selection/screening. Given this report, can the arguments against it retain credibility?

You could just as well argue it's a good argument for massively increasing funding for state schools so they can attract better teachers and have better equipment and smaller class sizes. Of course that might involve putting up taxes.....

And I thought streaming was standard in state schools? It was at mine - we had different sets based on ability/results for most subjects. Though it was a former grammar school with remaining pretensions.

how qualified do you really need to be at 16?

As I said.. but the issue is the sheer mind-numbing tedium of doing dull work all the time.

Of course that might involve putting up taxes.....

Better management of the current budgets would, of course, be too radical an idea.

I'm working with schools at the moment who are cutting staff numbers to almost unworkable levels just to balance budgets. I wouldn't be so arrogant to presume they're doing that because they're all just rubbish business managers or accountants.

Having attended a South Wales 'comprehensive' school in the 1970's I can't see that anything has changed over the last 30 years or so; expect of course that the general public think it has!

State schools let down the brightest pupils then as it does now 😯

I am not sure its the schools that are at fault (although this may be the case), rather the constant government interference. So what do schools do when free of interference and when striving to provide the best education:

1. Stream in a dynamic manner (ie, not condemned by one year's exam) and tailor teaching styles and aspirations according
2. Avoid government manipulated exams - so choose harder A levels or the new PreU exams (just a few) so that pupils can be properly challenged, parents cant do the course work, no constant re-takes etc; or offer one of the world's most recognisable qualifications - the IB - rather than wait for a UK botched, government manipulated UK (or is it just English) IB version
3. Spend time teaching off the narrow curriculum
4....

Meanwhile governments preside over a system that, "is failing children at both ends of the spectrum: bright children are left to coast and practically minded pupils often miss out on good skills training." (Headmaster of one of UK's leading schools)

Perhaps, the answer is to replace the 11 plus with 13/14 plus when academic development is more advanced?

As for barriers in society - who is more at fault. Governments who have failed the education system? Britain has some of the finest educations establishments in the world when governments are kept out of the way. It can be done, but at the moment, is only available to a very small minority. That is the real failing/tragedy imo.

edit:

Junkyard - Member. i would also reduce the numbers at Uni and leave that for the best of the best.

+1 its not called "higher" education for nothing!

I am not sure its the schools that are at fault (although this may be the case), rather the constant government interference. So what do schools do when free of interference and when striving to provide the best education:

Britain has some of the finest educations establishments in the world when [s]governments are kept out of the way[/s]we pay vastly more to educate the children than the state sector and we select the pupils on ability.

Please lets not do academies if that is what you meant

+1 its not called "higher" education for nothing!

Better management of the current budgets would, of course, be too radical an idea. This assumes we are not so arrogant to presume that current management of budgets cannot be improved upon.

'Efficiency savings' are always touted when people want to do more but don't want to spend any more money doing it.

The problem with it is that it assumes both that current budget management is not 100% efficient (which is likely to be true), but also that the person proposing the efficiency savings is able to propose a new budget which is more efficient (which may or may not be true), and also typically ignores the inevitable cost and inefficiency that is imposed by the major reorganisation required.

Junkyard - Member
Al there is more to life than maths and I bet we kick their arses at media studies

LOL...I did further maths at A level and then a degree in it! I recently studied some social sciences which was an eye opener...

After all, if you are bright and university bound, all you need to do at school is get good enough grades to get to 6th form college.

Most uni admissions are filtered by GCSE results now. If you want to go to Durham to study history and didn't get a raft of A*s at GCSE, don't bother applying, no matter how good your predicted A levels.

Sixth form college budgets are being squeezed and squeezed. We've made staff redundant, are not replacing people retiring/leaving and are all teaching an extra hour a week for no more money.

Eye opener, do you mean piss simple?
Could mix the humanities and maths and do economics and have the [s]worst [/s] best of both worlds and now you are a scientist to boot 😀

I think money is probably the issue. I would guess most teachers would LOVE to have enough cash to provide practical courses for those who wanted them (motor mechanics, welding, engineering etc etc etc) and high end stuff for those who needed it also (particle physics, philosophy etc)

That would be absolutely ace, and to be honest most kids would absolutely love the chance to do what they considered cool, but it would cost a bomb.

And let's face it, kids are just not worth investing in, are they?

Aye, psychology, compared to law, the standards were way lower.

I have wondered if economics might be up my street, but too late to retrain from scratch now (done it once already).

Molgrips re vocational training ...check out the colleges in any are and see what they do - its circa 10 k per year per student funding for a proper trade [ well it was 5 years ago].
the problem is not that we dont train people in the trades, we do and by the bucket load. The problem is there are next to no jobs in these trades so training people to do jobs we dont have makes no sense.
Everyone always thinks trade or apprenticeship training is the issue but without jobs it is pointless

Hairdressing, childcare. motor vehicle, construction trades, engineering, beauty therapy, animal care, sport studies, CSI studies/ forensics FFS we employ next to no one in this area . I suspect that annually we produce about what we employ in these fields if not more some of these it will be by factors of thousands [ forensics for example]

Certainly when i worked in a largish town they had more hairdressers in college than there were employed in the town. Motor vehicle had about 90 per year and there was no way more than one per year got ajob at the end.
its not a solution unless there are jobs in these trades and there are not.
might have worked in 1970 when we made stuff but we largely dont now.

check out the colleges in any are and see what they do

I'm not talking about vocational further education, I'm talking about main schooling 11-16.

There's so much you COULD do to keep kids engaged, interested, happy and learn science, history and all the academic things THROUGH practical work.

Isn't a part of the problem the way we look at academic achievement as the pinnacle?
I remember watching a program many, many years ago about the Dutch schooling system that allows children to select or be selected into either academic or vocational. The key to the success was the public's or more importantly the parents' perception of the level of education.

Junkyard - Member
Pretty much your view on every issue, its the governments fault for intervening.

Almost, but not quite. It's not the governments fault for being involved, but it is their fault (all parties) for intervening badly/meddling (and, as an aside, confusing social engineering with education). Please excuse me for being cynical about the performance of politicians, but the evidence is pretty clear to see especially in education. And yes, it started with Barbara Castle, but it is not a Labour issue as successive governments have led our education system down the league tables. My sister-in-law is a headmistress and my brother an ex-governor in the state system and so I am well versed in hearing about government meddling. Good, dedicated people hindered by politicians. Of course, if you want to turn this around and blame the teachers feel free...... 😉

To ensure non-partisan ship, lets look at Gove's idea of a new baccalaureate exam. Fine in principle, but why not merely adopt the widely recognised and tested International Version. Because politicians feel the need to meddle in things they do not need to get involved in. The teachers and the international educational establishment have developed an excellent, broad educational programme that is recognised around the world and (apparently) delivers better-prepared students for Unis. So those with money (you're absolutely right) can select this option while those that don't will be condemned to Gove's untested ideas. Brilliant?!!?

There's no demand for hairdressers, car mechanics, plumbers, sparkys.... as potential employees migrate to the UK on a daily basis.....

Why invest money training someone (who might decide on a career change 3 years down the line), when a foreigner can already do the job at a very low wage?

Just sayin' like...

To ensure non-partisan ship, lets look at Gove, and imagine a thousand feral youths, failed by his education reforms, murdering him to death, slowly and violently.

There isn't that better

Hairdressers could cross-train with car mechanics - then you could open a MX-5 repair business 😆

There's no demand for hairdressers, car mechanics, plumbers, sparkys

Really? Round here all of the (British-born) plumbers and sparkys I've tried to get in to do work have either not bothered to return my calls/not turned up to appointments or been booked up weeks in advance.

Almost, but not quite. It's not the governments fault for being involved, but it is their fault (all parties) for intervening badly/meddling

Thankfully Gove is intent on trying to get most schools to turn into academies where they will be free from government intervention and can abandon the oppressive nanny-state fetters of things like having to provide healthy school meals and not selling incredibly sugary drinks and snacks. They can also be free to teach creationism as a valid scientific theory with equal weight to evolution. Yay! 😕

teamhurtmore - Member

Please excuse me for being cynical about the performance of politicians...

Unlike of course the performance of "economists" such as yourself teamhurtmore ?

.

From the OP's link :

Those pupils in England who are considered to be "high performing" are most likely to attend private or grammar schools, the report says, rather than being state educated.

So someone has figured out that those who are specially selected for their academic achievement and placed in grammar schools do better than average ? The author is clearly an exceptionally astute individual. Sadly though, not astute enough to be aware that a child can be grammar school educated [u]and[/u] state educated.

Nice try Ernie, but not/never have been a professional economist, only studied to Masters! But I invest a lot in education in all senses.

I like MSP's suggestion. I'd like to see him use his legendary oratory skills, so slickly (and smugly) displayed at the Levenson Inquiry, to plead for his life. I'd actually pay to watch that

THM you missed the question about explaining what education was like before the state intervened whilst still telling me how bad it was.

Is this because we both know we need better state intervention rather than none?

THM you mentioned teaching A level economics and you studied to a masters so it seem reasonable to label you an economist.

Sorry JY, concentrating on Fed v Djok too much now to search out the specific analysis I want to refer to. Will try later. But, yes I agree with your conclusion but differ in where I would go for the answers. Copy the best that is available rather than deplore it for political purposes. That would be a start! 😉

But I invest a lot in education in all senses.

Well I only received very basic education but am aware that quotation marks may be used to imply sarcasm, as in "economists".

I'm pleased to hear that you never went professional btw, although you profess to guide children of school age in economics.

Politics is not helpful but , having worked in various state sectors. the main problem is we get change all the time.

For example a minister will always go

PM What have you done?
Gove: Nothing it was all working perfectly so i have just managed it
Gove: I have re modelled academies, changed the education qualification, updated the curriculum and redesigned the entire selection procedure for schools.
Repeat under the next govt. It may be better left to those who educate rather than those who have political views about what may or may not work but we still need the state if not the politics.

FWIW the IB was tried locally and was massively unpopular with students and it was unclear how Uni would view it relative to A levels. Students found it harder so there were less signing up the next year as they took easier options.

Hence we just get the whole thing going full circle over and over again

... middle school also has an outstanding OFSTED report and then feeds into several outstanding Grammar Schools

It's not just the (very over-subscribed) Grammar Schools they feed into 🙄 . As I am aware, in South Bucks and Kent, people send their children to private primary/prep schools or cram for the 11 plus. Then save on school fees once they pass.

We opted out of this system and chose a very good school that educates everyone, including the gifted academically, and the gifted vocationally.

JY, exactly your "change" is my "meddling"! On IB, my main point was that there is no need for further change/new government initiatives when a well tried and tested version is available. But it illustrates our points perhaps. Whether it is better or not, is an open question. I have been at some lectures on the subject recently and was given stats that showed that IB students do better at Uni and subsequently. But the stats did come from an IB representative so hardly going to say the opposite!

Can't we just start sending the filthy, uncouth offspring of the lower orders back down the pit from an early age. Then dispense once and for all with the ridiculous charade that we give a toss about them getting a decent education?

Put less money into education and results suffer.

It's not difficult, more teachers, reduced class size would be a start.

Also might want to stop kicking teachers in the balls at every opportunity and try and raise moral. A 10% pay rise would do for starters.

Put less money into education and results suffer.

It's not difficult, more teachers, reduced class size would be a start.

Also might want to stop kicking teachers in the balls at every opportunity and try and raise moral. A 10% pay rise would do for starters.

Put less money into education and results suffer.

Gove has pre empted all that by saying he's making the exams harder so that when results vet worse he can say he's doing a great job!

By the way anyone who starts off with " when i was at school" should be banned from saying anything further.

As I'm 17 I've just been through compulsory education in a state school and I dont agree with much being said. I'm not surprised that the result of that test leaves us lagging behind as we don't have compulsory maths until 18, whereas most of the countries do.

This isnt a problem in the real world though, 99% of jobs don't require you to perform complex algebra on a daily basis and if the student wants to do a job that requies it then surely he would take A-level maths.. IMO the whole study is flawed for that reason, you can't do a study in one subject and then say we're worse than other countries on a whole. if you're doing A-levels to study to be a photographer why the heck do you need to learn further maths? It just adds additional exams for the student to worry about.

In terms of vocational courses, those students who want to go down that route are given options of several courses via their college, most of which are paid by the government anyway. There's also options for apprenticeships to gain qualifications in a specific subject while getting a job at the end and getting paid during the course. I went down this route, doing an engineering related apprenticeship with a well known company.

And despite all these pay cuts and apparent job cuts there's been no decrease in the quality of teaching, sure you can get the odd rubbish teacher but on the whole i'd say the system is good. It also supports the more able students by giving them extra curriculum options should they so wish. While i can't speak for the whole country i'm not speaking about just a single school, i've mates from probably 10 schools and it's the same from them, the teaching standards are still the same and none of the bright pupils are being neglected.

TL:DR the report is bs.

Aanddd essay over!

So teaching kids in classes appropriate to their ability doesn't benefit the kids or the teachers?

Meta study says no

GEOFFPETTY.COM "http://www.geoffpetty.com/downloads/WORD/GeoffonHattie.doc"

Cambridge Primary review says no

By the way anyone who starts off with " when i was at school" should be banned from saying anything further.

Ditto those who add "I'm a teacher" 🙂

Why is it always the school's and/or government's fault?

Why don't parents get pulled up for not helping their kids enough, or perhaps letting them spend more time on their computers than on their homework.

And what about the kids? Maybe they should worker harder and stop relying on spoon feeding.

Or anyone who uses the word ditto. 😀

You're pushing at an open door here CaptJon.

CaptJon earlier today

[img] [/img]

Ditto those who add "I'm a teacher"

Well here we go then, as I am.

[u]Undoubtedly[/u] standards had to be raised in some schools and with some teachers. I've worked in 3 secondary schools so have some perspective.

Over the last 15 years my observations are:
- Standard of teaching has improved
- Support from [i]some[/i] parents has dropped
- Quantity of paperwork (evidence, justification) has increased
massively
- Change in exam systems with different boards is a nightmare. The one
thing Gove has got right is one paper only for each subject.
- Staff moral is at an all time low.
- We now teach to Ofsted criteria - this doesn't help prepare kids for
life after school - be it employment or college.
- When I started teaching I taught it what would now be considered an
old fashioned way (and would fail an Ofsted observation). The kids
got good results and beat their targets.
- Academy status is just a financial ploy.

I could go on, but I'm sure nobody wants me too (and I've gone off topic)! I know some of this has happened in lots of professions. Teachers seem to be an easy target at the moment though.

one thing Gove has got right is one paper only for each subject

Really then how come the kids I teach biology to in year 10 next year will rather than having 3 ppapers two in year 11 and one in year ten will now have terminal exams so all 3 papers will be in June of year 11 same for chem and phys so that 9 science exams alone. All because Gove has insisted on exams at the end before the exam boards can get rid of the modular papers. No the positives and negatives of terminal exams can be debated but rushing them in before the exam boards can change anything is plain stupid.

I meant one paper that everyone in England sat (so same standard)rather than boards touting for business with different papers; I wasn't commenting on modular/linear.

As it happens I prefer linear,but, as you say, changing so quickly is stupid and not thought through.

sorry if it's been done;

State [s]Schools[/s] letting down [s]brightest[/s] pupils

just spotting the obvious...

I've been teaching in a sixth form college for 10 years and would echo what Clink says above. We've been insulated from a lot of the changes to teach-to-Ofsted imposed in schools, but it's starting to come in now.

Also might want to stop kicking teachers in the balls at every opportunity and try and raise moral. A 10% pay rise would do for starters.

Gove thinks I'm paid 20% more than other graduates locally so wants to freeze my pay until they catch up. That's on top of the pay freeze of the last couple of years, increased pension contributions and a 5% increase in my contact hours. My balls are pretty much numb by now.