[Closed] staffordshire general hospital and others,shame on you all.

One trust out of many many hundreds in the UK gone bad and it hit the media.

While you cannot excuse the issues what they do manage on the budget they have is nothing short of a miracle.

You can bash the NHS all you want but I'm sure you'd be a lot worse off financially when you had to fork out a lot more money a month in private healthcare in most other countries in the world.

This definitely needs more coverage and moaning.

[quote=somouk said]While you cannot excuse the issues what they do manage on the budget they have is nothing short of a miracle.

£104 billion in 2012 apparently.

to be fair,the OP wasn't 'bashing the NHS', he was referring to 'those reponsible'.

That said, I think we all know and understand what a fantastic job those in the NHS do under often difficult circumstances, and what a fine institution it is, but it doesn't place certain parts of the NHS beyond criticism when it is found to be justified.

imo (this will ofc run and run)

Some of it may be fantastic but some of it is very poor. Hopefully things will improve such that everyone gets the care they deserve.

tbh, the people that are really responsible, will have earn't enough money of off us to go private.
shame.

Not only Stafford, sadly. I saw similar at Milton Keynes and Isle of Wight hospitals.

selected quotes from BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-21275826

"NHS chief executive Sir David Nicholson has also come in for criticism. Sir David was head of the health authority before Ms Bower."

"Officials further up the NHS system have also been implicated. Cynthia Bower was head, from 2006 to 2008, of the West Midlands Health Authority, which oversaw the trust. She left to become head of the Care Quality Commission, the regulator which replaced the Healthcare Commission. She left that post last year amid criticism of the regulator's performance."

"The findings were published in February 2010 and detailed the "unimaginable" distress and suffering of patients between 2005 and 2008."

Statement from me - so this ocurred when the current NHS chief executive was the head of the health authority.

When I was younger nurses were called Angels.
These days they are just thought of as lazy sods who stand around that work station thing having a chat.
They are paid to do a job,they train to do a job why don't they do their job?
Yes,I do have a Major grudge.
Edit, these are my experiences of East Surrey. Other hospitals may be better. I doubt it.

Somehow despite the huge budget that the NHS gets hospitals are understaffed and underresourced. Someone somewhere must be getting stupidly rich by ensuring that the NHS doesn't run as well as it could.

The findings were published in February 2010 and detailed the "unimaginable" distress and suffering of patients between 2005 and 2008."

Statement from me - so this ocurred when the current NHS chief executive was the head of the health authority.

and he has just stated on c4 he is not going to resign, so sack him then DC.

glupton1976 - Member

Somehow despite the huge budget that the NHS gets hospitals are understaffed and underresourced.

I think it's because there's quite a lot of hospitals or something.

No actually, serious answer. Modern medicine [i]is[/i] expensive. The most expensive thing a hospital can do is save your life, and every year they get better at that. The last 10 years of my grandad's life were basically given to us by the NHS, and in return they got a stack of bills a mile high, and a longer waiting list.

We take it for granted that hospitals will perform medical miracles then we complain that it costs more than it did 10 years ago. That's not going to change, we'll continue to live longer and we'll continue to demand new, expensive treatments and pills and hardware, and we'll continue to moan that the bill goes up.

It doesn't excuse this obviously- it's a whole different issue.

Tory then Labour then Tory again have insisted hospitals, schools and other institutions are run like businesses along corporate lines with respective performance measures. This focus on money and idiotic targets is part if the reason we are seeing this today... Doctors who fail to see why they should work to the same rules as others, nurses who see their role as a job not a vocation and management drawn into the NHS for the wrong reasons all of this also has it's role.

Northwind +1. If the patient dies young, the cost dies with them. Prolonging life becomes an increasingly expensive business every time someone survives to fall ill again. Not advocating euthanasia by incompetence, just facing facts.

We take it for granted that hospitals will perform medical miracles then we complain that it costs more than it did 10 years ago.

SGH, didnt even provide clean sheets, drinking water, medication, properley trained staff, all the basics required for good health care.

What's worrying is quite a few of the senior managers have moved on to even more senior roles in the health service. So rather than being charged with corporate manslaughter, they have even bigger salaries and even more responsibility and can kill even more people.

One trust out of many many hundreds in the UK gone bad and it hit the media.

And so it should. Peoples lives have been irreversibly effected. People should stand trial.

and another 5 are being investigated, and what about all the others that have had problems recently.

Perhaps the reason why this gets the media time, somouk, is the fact that the reports makes the specific conclusion that this is not a Mid-Staffs issue in isolation. It goes right down to "NHS Culture." Hence I would image that this affects us all and is really very newsworthy!

project - Member

SGH, didnt even provide clean sheets, drinking water, medication, properley trained staff, all the basics required for good health care.

Absolutely- I was responding to Glupton's comments about finance, not to this specific case. You get the impression that SGH would still have provided bad care with an infinite pot of gold.

The NHS is a disgrace, and if you need proof of that, ask anyone that works for them [u]who cares[/u].

The NHS suffers from the same malady that effects all public companies: too much focus on employees rights, and not enough on the core business.

Some examples:

Not being able to dismiss staff that are incapable of performing the role they were employed to do.

Not being able to type up notes because the medial staff's accent is so strong only their regular assistant (who is on holiday) can understand them.

When faced with overworked staff and backlogs of work, those in charge give the workers more to do by making them fill out time and motion studies. You couldn't make it up.

Generally the NHS has some excellent medical staff, mediocre admin staff, and diabolically poor management.

Yes there was a failure of management that can't be excused but having heard the appalling experiences of some of the patients it beggars belief that supposedly caring doctors and nurses went to work each day to see suffering and neglected patients and did nothing. FFS its just basic human decency to give a thirsty person a drink.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. SDG may be one of the worst cases but there are many others out there that will be shitting themselves now. The NHS has been heading down this road for a long time.

Not all the nurses and doctors at Stafford don't care about their patients. My mum works at the paediatric ward and gets really upset that the entire staff are being tarred with the same brush. Excessive targets, cuts in funding, cuts in staff, undertrained staff, poor management - the list goes on. The Nhs makes those at the top very wealthy, and senior managers etc will just be moved on to another well paid cluster ****. It's those staff and patients on the front line that get the brunt of it and its only going to get worse...

[b]it beggars belief that supposedly caring doctors and nurses went to work each day to see suffering and neglected patients and did nothing. FFS its just basic human decency to give a thirsty person a drink.[/b]

But thats how work has gone,now, people only do the job theyre paid to do,local builders merchant, tea machine empty of water, so told the sales man, who then went and got the secretary out of the office to fill it as it wasnt his job.

The problem is all the staff are paid out of the same pot of cash, from us the customer or taxpayer, and thats what some employees and management need to be reinforced with that knowledge.

Don't tar all Nhs Hospitals or staff with the same brush. My employers Royal Preston Hospital seems to do things right. We work hard and do the best we can always. Our staffing levels are very good tho, and limit the use of Agency staff to ehanced nursing, I.e a Dementia patient who needs one to one care. We have a ward of 30 patients which is split between 6 Hca's trained up to do Observations and have a understanding of fluid balances, blood sugars and do simple dressings backed up by 4 Rgns who do more complex clinical activities. We have protected meal times, where all none emergency clinical activity stops and we all make sure our patients are eating and drinking.

This practice happens across all wards including Mau and sau. Waiting times for surgery or procedures will always be a Nhs problem due to budget constraints, operations don't come cheap. Dressings don't come cheap either, I recently badly burnt my hand and had 200 pounds worth of dressing on it.

Maybe people who don't work and get drunk every weekend and end up in A&E would think before they acted, more budget would be available to treat needy operations and not some drunken knob who has had his face smashed in for acting the fool.

My step Mum has just suffered a brain Hamorrhage, and if it wasn't for the swift actions of Royal Bolton Hospital and now the care of Salford Royal, she wouldn't be here.

Blame the bad management, not frontline medical staff. Unfortunately you mat get none caring Nurses or Doctors, but not all lack care and compassion.

The NHS is a disgrace, and if you need proof of that, ask anyone that works for them who cares.

Agreed.

The NHS suffers from the same malady that effects all public companies: too much focus on employees rights, and not enough on the core business.

Some examples:

Not being able to dismiss staff that are incapable of performing the role they were employed to do.

Not being able to type up notes because the medial staff's accent is so strong only their regular assistant (who is on holiday) can understand them.

When faced with overworked staff and backlogs of work, those in charge give the workers more to do by making them fill out time and motion studies. You couldn't make it up.

Generally the NHS has some excellent medical staff, mediocre admin staff, and diabolically poor management.

My dad was taken in conscious into hospital with a suspected heart attack.
After the tests we were taken into the room and the doctor spoke to us like this ..
"The good news is he hasn't had a heart attack, he has had a stroke and will never recover."
Excuse me, where is the good ****ing news in that?

Maybe people who don't work and get drunk every weekend and end up in A&E would think before they acted, more budget would be available to treat needy operations and not some drunken knob who has had his face smashed in for acting the fool.

People who work also get drunk as they usually have more disposable income, and sometimes more streses to relieve.

Strangely it was frontline medical staff who failed to provide jugs of water, not mangement, management just failed to manage.

Glad you like your job, and your step mum is making a recovery.

it cant have been that bad.. not one person disciplined or sacked and no ones even resigned.. typical tory press exagerating the issues.

if only the worlds fourth largest employer had more employees.. if only the worlds largest pension scheme had more resources..if only the worlds most expensive health care scheme had a little more money.. think what a service they could offer

We take it for granted that hospitals will perform medical miracles then we complain that it costs more than it did 10 years ago. That's not going to change, we'll continue to live longer and we'll continue to demand new, expensive treatments and pills and hardware, and we'll continue to moan that the bill goes up.

How very true. Like it or not the NHS will be privatised (as it is already by stealth) and I think that is for the best. State management can never respond to such complex demands. The state will carry on paying for most of what we use but the provision will be private. Just accept the inevitable and move on.

I was in Banbury hospital a few years ago with Pneumonia and was in a small room away from others due to my coughing, I had been on Morphine for 5 days, when I buzzed for a nurse asking for water I was told it wasn't her job to run around fetching water for patients! I was treated like crap for two weeks until a nurse who I knew happened to come across me, as soon as the others realised that I was "known" the whole situation changed entirely!

I've seen it with other cases of my family dying in hospital in Shropshire from neglect too, so please everyone do not think that this is isolated, they have an institutionalised problem and it needs sorting out.

I believe one of the best things for patients would be to get their relatives to aid in looking after them, rather than relying on the nursing staff entirely,(we do seem to absolve responsibility of the problem once the patient is admitted to hospital) If the relatives were around to do the basic caring, the nurses would be able to their jobs more effectively too.

I believe one of the best things for patients would be to get their relatives to aid in looking after them, rather than relying on the nursing staff entirely,(we do seem to absolve responsibility of the problem once the patient is admitted to hospital) If the relatives were around to do the basic caring, the nurses would be able to their jobs more effectively too.

There is the slight problem of having to go to work, having transport, and childcare, and like our local hospital , ALL VISITING BANNED DUE TO Norvo VIRUS AND C -DIF INFECTIONS,and its our only hospital.

Oh and not everyone has a relative within a reasonable distance ,or may have any still alive.

Spraff on about budgets as much as you like. There is a special room set aside in hell for ****ers like this who spend their days deciding whether it's financially viable to give someone the care that might save their life. And to top it off, to have the sheer arrogance to say they're not going to resign? He goes to the front of the line for the hot poker.

State sponsored murder that they will turn a blind eye to because it's all boys together

Our recent (Oct 12) experience of Stafford Hospital...

My eldest (7yrs) fell on Cannock Chase, breaking his arm. Ambulance took him to Stafford... 😯

Decision was made to operate, so off to the childrens ward he went. Op scheduled for next day, but then told might need to be moved to North Staffs as the Anesthetist had too little experience of working on children. Anhyow op goes ahead & arm is reset & plastered. Now my lad is quite a slender little chap (unlike his Dad, in fact our milkman is a slim chap....).

So next day he is sent home, & called back a WEEK later. Voiced concerns that his swollen arm would shrink in the cast but went unheard. So a week later Mum takes him back & X-ray shows arm has moved & fused back in wrong position. Arm had become floppy in the cast. Surgeon tells Wife that its going to have to stay like this (arm with constant 20deg bend), & they will operate when he's much older. Wife is heartbroken, I'm trying to remain rational but losing it rapidly.

Went to our GP who was shocked that, given his age & the freshness of the injury, that they hadnt immedietley gone in & tried to move it back. Few days later we're with a new consultant, an amazing lady this time. She sent us straight from her surgery at Cannock Hospital to Stafford, & followed us over to operate again herself. On arrival an emergency came in so op was put off till next morning, but it went ahead this time & arm fixed properly.

What shocked the Wife was the attitude of the first surgeon. Just complete indifference, & an "I'm the expert here..." type approach.

Have to finish by paying respect to the Childrens ward though, the front line nurses are simply brilliant. I know its a childrens ward, so naturally a more caring environment, but even the A&E staff were also great (to us).
Also the car-park / security chaps, who on hearing that we were at the childrens ward, validated our parking token & wouldnt take payment.

In my experience, I do feel that some nurses, mainly the younger ones, are lacking in basic compassion.

For example, my mother was in hospital for 4 weeks. I visited 3-4 times a week staying for several hours each time. She was in a small ward of elderly ladies and not once did I see a nurse come in and chat to any of them.

How lonely and frightening it must have been for them. How hard is it to spend 5 minutes chatting to someone? 🙁

Ironically with everything that's happened at Stafford, it's probably now one of the best hospitals around. While most staff and consultants are amazing, you can't account for the occasional arrogant arsehole who thinks they are above all others.

Project - providing jugs of water is a frontline job yes. But again, proper management from the Ward Manager like ours gets Hca's or anyone really the first job they do wether it's a early,late or night is go round the ward and hand out jugs of water. We also have red lid patients, these are the ones who need hourly monitoring of their fluid intake and output and assisted to drink.

Again simple but highly important jobs. On the patients side I've been under the care of my employers at Preston, excellent care recieved by them, Salford again did everything they could for me to diagnose why my kidney was having problems and unexplained weight loss. And also kept me pain free and hydrated after my operation.

Blackburn however were not good, half hourly post op observations not done, was not checked to see if I was sat up correctly to eat and drink and nearly choked on toast. Took three hours to come take a cannula out, so I did it myself.

The theory of a free Health service is a great idea but it is spoilt by bad management in SOME Trusts.

I could really get annoyed with some of the comments above, which clearly show a lack of actual knowledge, and an ability to read sensationalist news stories.

Yes some thing went mighty wrong at mid staffs, but there were certainly no Harold Shipmans walking around the wards.

Its failings in many areas, all contributing to one overall terrible outcome.

Its a debate that can go on and on, but some of the highlights for me are:

Admin/Management numbers have reduced dramatically, so that clinical staff now have to do admin, taking them away from patient care. Cuts mean experienced staff are replaced with cheaper less experienced and skilled staff. Doctors do not receive as much training as they used to. Everyone in secondary care is having to do more at every level than ever before.

Yes unfortunately there are some bad staff, and I do agree that the NHS is not great at weeding out the bad staff and sacking, but in a clinical setting they tend to get side lined.

Mangerial wise, I have come across some poor ones and also some excellent ones, in fact just the same as private industry.

Mid Staffs will be the start of many problems within the NHS IMO. Although government try to suggest that they are not reducing spending on 'frontline services' I certainly have seen that happening in the last 3 years and it will continue. Yet the people people inn the frontline will continue to keep working as hard as ever, with less skills, experience, and the absolute minimum ratio of staff to patients that the government feel is safe

If I wasn't typing on a phone I could go on and on..

I could really get annoyed with some of the comments above, which clearly show a lack of actual knowledge, and an ability to read sensationalist news stories.

Obviously youve not had a relative suffer at the hands of uncaring management, lazy staff, and more importantly complaints not taken seriously, if they had shipman wouldnt have succeeded , people wouldnt have suffered ,and died, and inquiries wouldnt ned to have been done.

C_G - they dont have time to chat they are run off their feet. They may even have to review their patients three times/day to see if they can move folk on to empty beds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15052636

It wasn't that long ago the head of the RCN was advocating relatives should help with feeding patients and take them to the toilet, some of the other coverage of his comments at the time was rather more damning. A key part of nursing is being with patients when they eat to ensure they are getting correct nutrition and spot problems.

Managers may be part of the problem but so are many of the frontline staff who it seems to be taboo to criticise. We've had some good experiences with individual NHS staff but it's not been the norm. Our son had a minor op on the NHS over Christmas which they subbed out to a private hodpital. The level of care and general courtesy from the staff was in a different league. It's not treating medicine as a business that's the issue, it's insisting it is somehow special that's lead to a culture of victimhood amongst many staff, terrible cost control and bad service. What the NHS does is very important to society but it doesn't mean that it's wrong to expect value for money (infact given what they're doing it should be a moral obligation to do as much as possible with the money allocated) or that those employeed can treat those they serve with disdain and contempt. I know these comments will outrage some of you but until we can openly talk about some of the major cultural problems at all levels and especially with front line staff it'll never be resolved. And I don't have a lot of time for all the whinging about constant change and erosion of perceived benefits, deal with it or get out, it's they same for nearly all employees in all sorts of sectors. At least in a private sector company if the employees lose the plot it eventually rebounds and the business goes under.

glupton - the nurses station was extremely close to this ward but gossip was obviously deemed more important than talking to lonely old ladies.

believe one of the best things for patients would be to get their relatives to aid in looking after them, rather than relying on the nursing staff entirely,(we do seem to absolve responsibility of the problem once the patient is admitted to hospital) If the relatives were around to do the basic caring, the nurses would be able to their jobs more effectively too.

Brilliant way to increase MRSA infections or any other resistant diseases for that matter.

Lets be clear about this, Stafford was a failure in management....as a general rule Nursing standards are very good in the UK.

Lets be clear about this, Stafford was a failure in management....as a general rule Nursing standards are very good in the UK.

+1 IMO.