I started at a new gym, in Dec last year, which just does 1 to 1 or small group coaching in Strength and conditioning. So I've started doing Squats and Deadlifts twice a week and never found anything so exhausting. After a session I feel worse than if I'd ridden 100 miles on a road bike - I'm absolutely drained for at least 24 hours.
I think possibly its the shock of a new exercise routine mid forties means it's taking longer to adapt to it. NB I'm not that unused to weights, I used to do some upper body free weights in my old gym and used to bench 90kg (one off), but 3x8 front squats of 40kg followed by 3x8 of deadlifting 60kg is draining me to a new level.
I've only felt fatigue like this after running marathons / racing mountain mayhem....
Is this normal, are they just very draining exercises?
that's fairly normal IME, squat/deadlift use a big chunk of your entire body and you are (or should) be going somewhere close to your limit each set
my experience is that most non-lifters assume weights will be "easy", a bit like many people who don't ride DH assume it will be "easy".
what sort of weight are you aiming for short/mid/long term?
Probs shouldnt be doing deadlifts if you have the squits.
what sort of weight are you aiming for short/mid/long term?
No actual plans as yet, I'd quite like to learn to do Olympic lifts, just for the hell of it. NB Never realised how technical power lifting was. The instructors spend ages working on stretches / core work and I'm still a way off squatting right down so my arse in on my heals. One side affect is a new found uber respect for anyone who can do a Clean and Jerk properly!
I only started at this gym as I got bored of my last one and this one is just round the corner from work.
Probs shouldnt be doing deadlifts if you have the squits.
Similar to the sky diving adage, never deploy your chute with full bowels!
Squat exercises are great for a total body workout. They effectively work most of the major muscle groups of the arse, hips and thighs. They engage the quadriceps, hamstrings and calf muscles. They also give the glutes a powerful workout and engage the core muscles of the body. Abdominal and back muscles are needed to keep balance during the movement. Adding weight gives the upper body a workout too.
The deadlift is one of the most potent muscle and strength building exercises you can perform. Just take a look at all the parts of your body that get worked! Hamstrings, Glutes, Quads, Lower Back, Upper Back (All of it), Lats (if bar kept close to body ie proper form), Posterior Delt, Abs, Obliques, Forearms. Basically, you use this exercise and you get more muscular all over and thats why they are pretty tiring.
Ive only been doing weights for about a year now, but if i am short on time and can only get ion a few sets, its always squats and deadlifts.
benchpressing may look impressive, but it doesnt work as many muscles!!
The deadlift is one of the most potent muscle and strength building exercises you can perform. Just take a look at all the parts of your body that get worked! Hamstrings, Glutes, Quads, Lower Back, Upper Back (All of it), Lats (if bar kept close to body ie proper form), Posterior Delt, Abs, Obliques, Forearms. Basically, you use this exercise and you get more muscular all over and thats why they are pretty tiring.
I had noticed this, my chest seems to be the weak member as after deadlifts that aches more than my legs / back. Feels a bit similar to after bench pressing.
Does it get any easier as you get used to it?
Never realised how technical power lifting was
leagues apart from olympic lifting though - opinions may vary but I would say you can learn 99% of power lifting technique within a year, it simply is not that high a skill element, you can grind out lifts and still make them. of course it will take years before you have maximised raw strength. with olympic lifts, there is a huge skill element, make one tiny mistake and the lift is lost.
Does it get any easier as you get used to it?
yes, and no.
I've been lifting for a while, and it still aches during & afterward.
Keep at it....
Chris Hoy can squat 225kg. Exactly double my 1RM. At first it does take an awful lot out of your body but as your muscles (the ones that you've probably never used to any great extent) get strong you can use the power in your bigger muscle more. I found my lower back weak at first so although I could leg press much bigger weight I couldn't squat them cos my core couldn't support the weight.
Straight leg deadlifts are great for the hams and lower back and set me on track to a heavier squat.
Yep squats and deadlifts are pretty tough, I used to train using them three times a fortnight - went up to squatting 140kg for 10 reps or so. Squatting is by far the most important exercise to do as nothing stresses the body as much - check out Stuart McRobert:
http://hardgainer.com/articles-by-stuart-build-muscle-mass-top-tips/
why 3x8?
I've been lifting for a while, and it still aches during & afterward.
Yesterday I went deaf after one of the sets of deadlifts! Came back after about a minute. Mind you, I used to taste blood when really pushing my limit on the bench....
why 3x8?
We started on 5x5 then 4x6 and now they've moved us on to 3x8 for those who do the program twice a week. Going to 3x8 has meant I've had to drop the weights to manage the load - it's noticeably tougher.
As to why, no idea, but they're all v. highly qualified (MSc Sports Science) and Olympic lifters (none of your 6 week YMCA course nonsense), so I just trust their judgement.
started a similar routine at the start of the year, once a week, squats, deadlifts, bench, overhead press and pull ups, if time a set of lunges as well. My lower back is obviously the weakest link as the muscles are sore for days after. Not helped by swimming the next morning and cross bike night ride the next evening. By the end of the ride it is just as though there is nothing to push against to ride up hills i would normally enjoy. I'm thinking of moving the day to the end of the week before a rest day instead.
Yep squats and deadlifts are pretty tough, I used to train using them three times a fortnight - went up to squatting 140kg for 10 reps or so.
That's twice my body weight!
I did a zercher squat session on Saturday and I still feel ill & sore.
That's twice my body weight!
Pretty much twice mine now - I was 93kg in those days though.
That's twice my body weight!
Then your old bench of 90kg is pretty fair going.
Also, I would say anything over bodyweight for 3x10 is a good mid-term (year?) target for the squat.
Here we see a skinny nigerian man clean and jerk 220kg. I'm not sure how much he ways but I would guess not much than 100kg
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In my personal experience squats and deadlifts at my limit are the hardest, most exhausting things I've ever done. It doesn't really get any easier when you lift your max because as you get stronger you just lift more (still giving 100%) - same as with cycling where it doesn't get easier, you just go faster!
The most important thing IME is to eat properly afterwards and rest properly (including getting enough sleep) before your next session. If you are lifting heavy you only need to do each of these exercises once a week max.
I've never really gone all the way on squats before so decided to test out how far i could go and ended up managed 6 reps of 200kg last week. When I compare this to Chris Hoy and my size and his size he is a machine!!
I've never really gone all the way on squats before so decided to test out how far i could go and ended up managed 6 reps of 200kg last week. When I compare this to Chris Hoy and my size and his size he is a machine!!
proper technique? i.e. Arse below hips at the bottom?
I was squatting pretty heavy until a few months ago, but have significantly reduced the weight to 60-70kg to focus on the correct technique and gradually building it back up again.
In my personal experience squats and deadlifts at my limit are the hardest, most exhausting things I've ever done.
That was the conclusion I'd come to.
It doesn't really get any easier when you lift your max because as you get stronger you just lift more (still giving 100%) - same as with cycling where it doesn't get easier, you just go faster!
Fair point.
The most important thing IME is to eat properly afterwards and rest properly (including getting enough sleep) before your next session. If you are lifting heavy you only need to do each of these exercises once a week max.
I think right now I'm still technique / minor muscle limited, so not fully straining the bigger muscles, but in a few months I probably will be at my strength limit rather than technique limit.
I'll probably look at protein supplements as well, as I think I need all the help I can get (I'm not really after getting bigger, just staying in shape).
Just bear in mind that muscle is built from a general calorie surplus not specifically from dietary protein (although you do need a certain amount to stimulate muscle synthesis). So don't go overboard on protein shakes and think it will help you build muscle quicker (it won't) as you need plenty of "proper" food as well. Having said that I use them personally and would recommend them if you are lifting regularly just to make certain you are hitting your daily protein target.I'll probably look at protein supplements as well, as I think I need all the help I can get (I'm not really after getting bigger, just staying in shape).
Yes a couple of months sounds about right. It definitely gets more fun when you can concentrate on heavy weights and not worry about the stabilising muscles anymore. I would just say though that technique is ALWAYS key, never forget that. It is even more important with heavy weights. If you lift too heavy or are tired and your technique is less than 100% then you would be better off not doing them. I video my lifts occasionally just so I can play them back later and check on it. Also as organic said above it is useful IMO to have an "easy" week every few months or so where you knock the weight right back and just concentrate on doing reps with perfect technique.I think right now I'm still technique / minor muscle limited, so not fully straining the bigger muscles, but in a few months I probably will be at my strength limit rather than technique limit.
After years of doing routines based around squats, deadlift, bench, and overhead press I finally decided to dive into Olympic lifts. At first I thought I could alternate between powerlifting and olympic lifting but it became apparent to me that there was no way I could do both. The recovery time for back squats and deadlift was too long, 3 to 4 days at least. The deadlift was especially difficult to recover from.
With a pure powerlifting program I would do squats and overhead press one day, deadlift and bench the other with one or two days rest between sessions.
Now I'm doing 10x2 snatch and 10x2 Clean and Jerk, 5x5 overhead squat or front squat, and 5x5 overhead press or weighted pull up. And no, I'm not going to say how much I'm lifting for the OLs, not until it's improved by quite a lot 🙂
I put mrshora over my shoulders and practrise-squats with her. I can also walk up the stairs with her there too 8)
What leg-based lifting exercises for cycling benefit?
Can any of them be done with kettlebells?
I'm a long way, technique wise, off doing Olympic lifts, but it's something to aim at and a new thing to learn.....
I put mrshora over my shoulders and practrise-squats with her. I can also walk up the stairs with her there too
If only we all had your natural talent 😉
What leg-based lifting exercises for cycling benefit?
There is a section in Joe Friel's book on weights for cycling - can't remember what he says without looking it up.....
What leg-based lifting exercises for cycling benefit?Can any of them be done with kettlebells?
kettlebell snatch
kettlebell dead lift
goblet squat
They all looked pretty similar...?
I love the goblet one, just did a few of those and it feels great.
Both squats and dead lifts are massive CNS stressors.
Great exercises for building strength and size (if eating enough)...but I wouldn't be training them twice a week, that is insane, no wonder you're tired!
When I lifted we trained each exercise once a week, that was enough, it wasn't unusual to come to squat day again and still have aching legs from the previous session, in that instance you'd skip the session and have an extra week rest, likewise don't train these exercises when run down....it's a surefire way to get ill.
I had a 150 kg squat for reps and a 200 kg dead lift for a single, loved dead lift day, hated squat day!
cant beat a good squat and goblet!
Both squats and dead lifts are massive CNS stressors.
Interesting, I didn't know this could be stressed... Tell me more?
[url= http://nopityfitness.tumblr.com/post/21653439693/olympic-weightlifting-training-the-central-nervous ]Tell me more?[/url]
Interesting, I didn't know this could be stressed... Tell me more?
http://www.myosynthesis.com/cns-handle-stress
I know about training the peripheral nervous system - in cycling, from a theoretical point of view and clearly from experience. But what about the central nervous system? How does it get stressed, and what happens if you do stress it? What's the difference between tired muscles and tired nerves?
I did an epic fell run/race thing four weeks ago, a week later I felt ok and tried to go for a run, it was a disaster.
EDIT cross post footflaps - that looks a good article.
I've never really gone all the way on squats before so decided to test out how far i could go and ended up managed 6 reps of 200kg last week. When I compare this to Chris Hoy and my size and his size he is a machine!!proper technique? i.e. Arse below hips at the bottom?
Proper technique, I was a semi pro prop in rugby so had the strength base already.
6 reps of 200kg last week
<politely doffs cap>
chris hoy is a complete machine, no argument there.
Yes that is excellent, how much do you weigh tommy if you don't mind me asking? I would be very happy if I ever managed to work up to 1.75x BW which would be something around 140-150 kg. Still some way off though!
Yes that is excellent, how much do you weigh tommy if you don't mind me asking?
300kg 😉
I've been lifting weights for the last 3 months (primarily Squats); not in the pursuit of body building or powerlifting, but to become a stronger cyclist. Time will tell if it's working...
I'm currently doing (among other things) 4x10 Squats at 100kg* (which is a huge improvement over where i was when i started). I've not really lifted weights before, and it's quite satisfying to see such a large improvement in such a short space of time.
I've been training 3/4 times a week (i know that's too much, but i'd be bored otherwise) and running on days i'm not in the Gym. Personally, my muscles don't ache after training, unless i've been doing deep squats (targeting glutes and hip flexors). Whether that's good or bad, i'm not sure.
*caveat: I train on my own, so this is with the use of a Smith Machine.
If its totally killing you at the load and intensity that you're doing and you are not a 4st weakling then you're doing it wrong. Breathing and core control will be your friends.
Time will tell if it's working.
Three months should've been enough. No improvement?
well i started this plan today
http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Improve-Your-Body-Position-100-in-30-Days-Blueprint-2013.html
I just did 20x goblet squats quickly with a 24kg. Strange really, didn't get out of breath until I stopped. Also it seems to exercise my arms and back much more than my legs, but I guess they are used to that kind of punishment.
Three months should've been enough. No improvement?
I've been away from home since November. I'm coming home next week, so i'll soon be able to get back on the bike.
Squatting and deadlifting twice a week on top of cycling is probably too much IMO.
The number one thing that determines how often you can train/how strong you will get/how quickly you recover is genetics.
Find what YOU can recover from and ignore what other people are doing.
As someone has posted, deadlifts and squats hammer your CNS. This takes far longer to recover than your muscular system.
You can get away with hammering yourself into the ground for a while, but sooner or later you will crash and the result will be, you will start going backwards.
As someone has posted, deadlifts and squats hammer your CNS. This takes far longer to recover than your muscular system.
Wwwwwwwhawhat?
90 kg bench is amazing!
40 kg front squat and 60 kg dead lift should not leave you drained for 24 hours, in my opinion, even at 3 x 8 reps. I have been doing Crossfit for a couple of years now, those weights were not huge when I started. I am not sure what advise to give though apart from keep at it, focus on form and enjoy it. I was always into cardio type exercises but I get far more out of an hour crossfit class than a long run, swim or ride.
The only thing that springs to mind is whether you warm up sufficiently? Your muscles need to be firing, especially for squats.
OK, minor update. It turns out the system my gym uses is 6 sessions at 3x 8 reps then back to 4x 5 reps for 6 sessions and repeat.
Towards the end of the 6 session of 3x8 it did get a lot less fatiguing. Just had the first session back at 4x5 and the difference was amazing. They up the weights and focus on improving technique, so I'm now on front squats of 50kg and dead lifting 75kg, which seemed so much easier than 8 reps of 40 & 60kg respectively. The idea is to ramp the weight up over the next few sessions, then drop it back a bit and consolidate in the next 3x 8 rep phase.
Cool, Ive just upped my Squats to 70kg and doing 5sets of 5 at the moment, thinking about upping it to 80 or 90kg next week too as feel I am getting stronger.
Deadlift is at 86.5kg at the moment, had it at 108kg last week (1.5 x Body weight), but I popped/pulled something in my abs trying to lift it, so dropped back down to 86.5kg. I weigh about 70-72kg.
the thing I am really struggling with at the moment is pull ups, I really cant do more than 5, but if i weigh 70kg, then I am essentially lifting 70kg BW, which i cant really do on any other excercise i.e I cant bench 70kg or shoulder press it.
I can do about 3 press ups as well!
The only thing I've been really good at was Bench Press where my PB was 95kg (did think it was 90, but had a look back and did 95kg twice over the years). I had always wanted to get to 100, but never managed it.
Will be interesting to see how the new stuff goes. Still learning the technique, which goes a bit sloppy when I get tired, so plenty of room for progress.
Im OK with press ups, think my max to failure is somewhere in between 30 and 40. But I am only Benching 2 x 25kg dumbells at the moment and cant see me being able to up this any time soon. I think i did slightly more on a bar maybe 60kg total, but the bar seems to hurt my shoulders when benchpressing so sticking with dumbells.
sorry to jump in but,....someone mentioned about not doing the two together? I've been doing 4 exercises every workout (once, maybe twice a week). Not sure if I should split it down? I.e. I'm doing 3 sets 10 reps of:
Deadlift: 40kg,50kg,60kg and about to increase by about 2.5kg
Squats: 27.5kg, 30kg, 32.5kg
Bench: 25kg, 27.5kg, 30kg
Shoulder press: 3 sets at 20kg, try to get to 10 but I am struggling massively even when its the first thing I do after a warm up.
Then some planks/Vsits/leg raises etc.
Would it be better just to do upper body once a week and do lower on a different day then or does it not really matter that much?
Depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you want to get as strong as possible split the squat and the deadlift up. Both as so taxing you will grind to a halt with progress pretty quickly.
Throwing riding into the mix, it is probably better to do something like an upper/lower split as deads and squats both work the legs, which can be hard to recover from if you are riding on top.
trying to get a six pack 🙂 I just want to be strong really, not particularly strong in a specific way or super strong, just strong. I need to give a proper hill climb a go too cuz not tried one since been squatting (since Christmas). Sure must have made a difference to my speed 🙂 I'm not riding much at the moment, fair weather rider. **read 'massive pussy'**
I would recommend checking out a crossfit blog aimed at women for specific advice, there're loads about. Remember a six-pack is much more about low BF% than strength or bulk, and depending on your genetics you may or may not be able to achieve this healthily.
I know, been working really hard on my diet, I'm down to 19%/20% body fat now, pack is nearly there but still its always the very last bit that's the hardest. Especially when I haven't been hungry all day but now I've just had an omlette I also want to eat the massive bar of dark choc in the cupboard 🙁
Yes that is excellent, how much do you weigh tommy if you don't mind me asking?
Dragging this back up to defend myself after the 300 kg slur 😉
actually I am on the weighty side of the scale at 120kg so should be able to go big. max bench is 135kg.Somebody mentioned planks earlier on and I read an interesting article stating that once you can do 1:30 to 2:00 then they are quite pointless and you should be doing more dynamic stuff (press ups on medicine balls, TRX on the feet and and wobble board on the hands) to get improvememts.
I been doing squats since last winter. 6x25 75kg. I weigh just under 70kg
My legs are still has painfully skinny - but certainly felt the benefit from them. Will def be continuing to do them.
Yeah, lived in lots of them back in the 70's and 80's but none of them tall enough to have an elevat... oh, wait.
6x2575kg
Blimey I thought your legs would be like tree trunks lifting that kind of weight?