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Nah - I'm off to drink a large G&T in the bath. decadent? Moi?
Claiming I would say this and that is just nonsense
really TJ? you play reductio-ad-absurdium all the time, indeed, you're playing it with this whole thread, in alleging that the evil tories will cut public services by 40%!
Indeed the allegation of Godwins law is the same, where did I mention the Nazis? I didnt, The Neue Arbeit/New Labour connection is well established as an internet meme, it correlates New Labour with the Socialist East German government, that ruled through fear and control and imposed the Stasi on its people! claiming that I mentioned the nazis is, in your words, just nonsense!
the rest of it is obvious and beside the point.
In other words, not a single point that you can argue against presumably TJ?
I mean, are you accepting that public services should shrink during times of recession, since GDP shrinks?
You're accepting my point that public spending will [b]rise[/b] under this extreme cost cutting government
Come on, rather than "not worth debating" you're just showing that you cannot prove me wrong!
Zulu - as nothing you say makes any sense and you continually make up things that I say there is no point in debating with you. None.
Zulu's making sense from where I'm sat. This morning you were banging on about 40% cuts.
z11 it may well be an accepted internet meme (wtfs a meme)
but comparing the newlab government to the nazi party is absurd and offensive
as anyone could tell you
(unless you know of a secret network of concentration camps tony and gordo had built)
but comparing the newlab government to the nazi party is absurd and offensive
He's already said he's on about the East German Socialists. Who were a lovely bunch.
"Own him with some bombers" or "Wee in his shoes" are common memes around here.
sorry that should be
[i](unless you know of a huge great concrete and barbed wire wall dividing the country tony and gordo had built)[/i]
kimbers - who mentioned the Nazi's? TJ playing diversionary tactics - Neue Arbeit is about East germany, the Nazi's didn't have anything to do with the Stasi, as Blairs "non-police" have commonly become known, look at the level of restriction of protest that we've seen over the past decade - look at the 1980's under the Evil she-witch Thatcher and how they criminalised and imprisoned women for protesting outside the country's most sensitive nuclear base (oh, wait,no they didn't did they!) whereas nowadays we arrest people for reading out the names of dead soldiers near the cenotaph
TJ's simply connecting any word in German as a reference to the nazis, which shows his level of intellect and ability to reflect on the debate!
Regardless, we're getting sucked off down a blind alley - back to the subject:
I've listed government official government spending figures above. TJ claims that there are huge swinging cuts that will devastate the nation - I claim thats bullshit, as the actual figures show government spending will rise.
As I said above, he's run around for the past six months playing chicken little telling us how the evil TORY cuts will rape the nation and kill babies.
The claims dont stack up, and he's unwilling to debate now someone's actually called him on them!
(unless you know of a huge great concrete and barbed wire wall dividing the country tony and gordo had built)
Come on. Everyone knows the division of the country was sorted out by the allies and the Soviets. The East Germans specialised in spying on their own citizens and generally being ****s. Much like New Labour.
nobody ever changes their mind after arguing on a cycling forum.*
*just an opinion, don't a give a toss about yours.
no offense like.
ok call me stupid but how does the 25% government cuts such as the science budget cuts announced by vince this week
equate to an increase in spending??
**** they maybe but im totally unaware of a stasi-like secret police, i guess they must be very secret!
nobody ever changes their mind after arguing on a cycling forum
not true.. I did last night.. It was very liberating..
but I am a notorious turncoat
not true.. I did last night.. It was very liberating.
Did you flip from Daddy -> Chips or Chips -> Daddy ?
bike ride anyone?
I'm not going to plough through all those somewhat personalised debates above. My own view is that Maggie did royally screw the country in a number of ways for what appear to me to be totally ideological reasons - for that reason alone I refuse to contemplate voting Tory, as my strong suspicion is that most of them agree with what she did. I am therefore highly concerned that our friendly ex-wallpaper salesman of a chancellor has the same ideological "enthusiasm" as she did and that is what is driving the urge to cut the deficit at what can only be described as breakneck speed. It is (I believe) a faster rate of cutting spending than has been tried before almost anywhere (do correct me if I am wrong there) and will surely push the country back into recession or even depression. He seems to be happily ignoring the huge competitive threat to us from China and the Far East, cutting back on education and infrastructure and those things that might just make us compete again. Just my opinion though.
Just on Labour's dismal record of civil liberties mentioned above, I don't see many of their dreadful and paranoid rules being rolled back by the current government? A few weak mutterings perhaps, but no real action.
ID cards cancelled anyone ?
Another query over TJ's statement earlier that:
No other country in the world is following this line
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704515704575282590539605292.html
BERLIN—Germany's government is set to outline billions of euros in budget cuts in coming days to reduce its deficit, despite hopes in the euro zone and the U.S. that Europe's biggest economy will keep the fiscal spigot open to support the region's weak economic recovery.View Full Image
Reuters
German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble speaks at a news conference in Berlin on Wednesday.Chancellor Angela Merkel's ruling center-right coalition is weighing steps ranging from defense cuts to higher tobacco duties to find roughly €10 billion ($12.22 billion) in savings and extra revenue next year—the first step in a multiyear effort to all but eliminate Germany's budget deficit.
Ms. Merkel has warned that nearly[b] all areas of government spending are under review, including tax perks and benefits that Germans have long held dear[/b]. Her cabinet is seeking to agree on the list of cuts on Sunday and Monday. "We must make sure we don't constantly live beyond our means," Ms. Merkel said in a recent speech.
Berlin's growing focus on frugality comes as other countries and many economists are calling on Germany to do the opposite: To stimulate domestic demand a little longer, in order to prop up a euro-zone recovery that is in danger of stalling amid a debt crisis on the bloc's Southern fringe, where countries such as Spain, Portugal and Greece are cutting spending under pressure from creditors.
The German government says it has no choice but to trim its deficit, in order to obey the country's so-called debt brake: a constitutional amendment passed last year that requires virtually balanced budgets from 2016. The motivation behind that goal was to prevent rising public debt from undermining the German welfare state as the country's population ages and shrinks.
The government is tight-lipped about where the cuts will fall, with ministries saying decisions haven't been made yet. German media have speculated that measures could include drastic cuts in the German army, new taxes on air travel and nuclear energy, lower housing benefits for the long-term jobless, a new flat-rate levy for public health care, and an end to many tax breaks.[b] Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble has said only pensions are safe from cuts[/b], reassuring Germany's powerful and growing lobby of retirees.
I am still waiting for anyone to challenge the ethos that when GDP rises, the government is able to spend more on public services, therefore when GDP shrinks, it is logical and reasonable to consider reducing government spending in line with the available revenues!
Hmmm, ok some I'm a johnny-come-lately to the argument but surely it boils down to this:
We can have a recovery some time soon OR the government debt can be cut.
But not both.
Personally I'd like a recovery as I think that would be more beneficial to more people across the country.
We can have a debate about the size of government we want when we're back on our feet as an economy.
bike ride anyone?
how about a new 3k bike bought on the never-never and maybe a fast depreciating asset also purchased with fictitious money to drive to the trail centers in?
won't that be good for the economy spending a bit of money?
we are the second most indebted nation (personal and private debt) after all so a bit more can't hurt.
TandemJeremy - Member
Labour in the last government at least had a large majority of seats and did what was in the manifesto.
Like honour their pledge to do away with PFI's? My place of work has just been completed, under labour, as a PFI. How many years after TB said he'd get rid of them?? Labour didn't always do what their manifesto said, by no stretch of the imagination.
Basicly the local councils should just provide funding for social care and the roads, emptying the bins,and coordinating but not funding public transport.
Education, fire , police, should all be paid for by central government and run by them via private companies,the police are slowly being broken up into saleable parts, anyone else notice, the forensics side is now branded as such, as is the motorway patrols, then we have the traffic wardens given to private companies, then the pcso,s all neat little bits.
We need cuts, but who is going to pay for all the redundncy cheques,the sitting at home getting fat mentality,the wife and child abuse,an dfinally all the sick pay and unemployment money each week.
Then factor in all the cash these people would spend and now cant, all the fuel they would use to go to work, the list goes on.
mmm ... aside from agreeing with Kevevs that maybe it's just time for a ride (might wait til Sunday in wales when it might have stopped raining!) ...
Anyway, does anyone really think that these cuts, and in particular the scale and speed of them, will actually lead to a more efficient public sector, and that those services that society depends on will be better delivered (whether that is by the public sector or private companies or by charities)? With a more gradual approach, and lesser cuts, we could have had the opportunity to tackle some of the real issues of inefficiencies and overspending, whilst retaining a reasonable level of services. As someone who works within a government agency, I know that efficiency and productivity have gone totally down the pan since the election due to the fact that the public sector can no longer proceed with planned work, that far too many staff have been diverted into working on the cuts / end of organisations / mergers etc, and the freeze on recruitment has stiffled the innovation and fresh ideas that often comes with new staff. Instead you have a stressed, demotivated workforce that is being frustrated by being unable to do the jobs were are paid for. I chose to work in the public sector as I believe that there are services that society needs that are not 'profitable' soshould be delivered by the state and not the private sector. I work hard, do extra hours, and feel accountable forensuring that public money is spent as wisely and efficiently as possible, and so does the majority of people I work with. If I really thought that the current cuts would lead to better public services I would support it, but I'm afraid I don't - do you?
Zulu-Eleven - MemberMost people didn't vote Tory
[b]"True, however Ernie, more people voted Tory than any other political party - you lost, get over it!"[/b]
But most people voted Labour, LibDem, nationalist, etc
[b]"No, actually Ernie, most people either voted Conservative or didn't vote at all!"[/b]
I "lost" ratty ?
I voted Green in May .......you might be surprised to learn that I didn't expect to "win" ! 😀
But wait........ now you also want to include all the people who [b]DIDN'T[/b] vote ! [img] 
[/img]
Well let explain something to you ratty, when counting votes in elections we don't include those who didn't vote !
But hey, let's have it your way........if you add up all the people who voted Labour, LibDem, Scot Nat, Welsh Nat, Green, [u]AND[/u] all the people who [i]didn't[/i] vote, then it's absolutely clear that it was only a small minority of the electorate who actually voted for immediate spending cuts.
jam bo's claim that the British people voted for immediate and savage spending cuts, is false.
The Tory Party and their supporters are very fond of creating myths - something which they have had considerable success with in the past. Specially when their unelected press baron friends help to propagate them. Lies are constantly repeated on an almost daily basis over a long period of time, until there reaches a point when people start accepting them as fact.
The last general election was only 4 months ago, and despite the fact that it is still fresh in people's minds myths are starting to emerge that the Tory Party's economic policies were supported by the majority of the British electorate - they were not.
Indeed by far the single most significant feature of the last general election was the fact that the Tories failed win a convincing victory.
Unprecedented in recent times, the official opposition was unable to secure a majority. Despite the fact that the governing party had been in power for 13 years and had become deeply unpopular.
One or two years ago a landslide victory for the Tories seemed an absolute certainty - I certainly didn't doubt it. But as election day approached it became more and more obvious that the electorate was singularly unimpressed with the Tory Party's policies - if they even understood them.
So the Tories were forced into a coalition with a party which had gone into the election with a completely different set of economic policies to theirs.
The Tories will implement immediate savage spending cuts [i]not[/i] because they received a clear mandate from the British people, but because they have done a deal which gives them political power, and are therefore able to do so.
.
Of course ratty because of your far-right neo-fascist views, you would rather the ordinary British man or woman didn't have a vote at all, calling it just a [b][i]silly little experiment in "democracy".[/b][/i]
So presumably you couldn't give a monkeys whether or not the electorate voted for the present government's economic policies........let me quote you :
Zulu-Eleven - MemberNo Ernie, not at all - far more of a fan of a military coup returning HRH to power and getting rid of this silly little experiment in "democracy"
Posted 6 months ago #
The Tory Party and their supporters are very fond of creating myths
That, of course, is something the Labour or the other parties would never indulge in 😆
Well I weakened and will reply to Zulus rantings.
I don't know why you continually invent things you claim I will say - seems very odd to me. Very little of it actually is anywhere near my positions but its a common tool of the right - the "Big Lie" to discredit opponents. Most of the stuff you post on about was totally irrelevant to the main debate anyway and peppered with such ludicrous claims that any point you have is totally lost in your rantings.
"Neue Arbeit". I took that as a reference to Arbeit macht frei. the slogan over the gates of concentration camps. Its hard to figure out what Zulu mean sometimes the phrases he uses are so odd. I have never heard "Neue Arbeit" using in the context of a comparison of the Labour party with the east german government. It is a particularly farcical comparison anyway - and shows how distorted your mind is that you would even consid3er this to be a reasonable comparison.
Google "Neue Arbeit" and the only english site that crops up on the first page is linked to the concentration camp slogan. Nothing to do with the DDR.
so - on this one you are posting utter bobbins of no relevance to anyone.
Cuts. Cameron has asked most government depts to prepare budgets for 25% - 40% cuts. This is a simple fact. All your waffling on does not alter the fact that this is a major cut in the UKs public spending. It is nothing like the cute proposed in say Germany that you refer to -= there the cuts are expected to be a few %. Here the tories want at least 10% off the total budget and most depts 25 - 40 %. Not comparable to Germany in any way.
As for the total UK budget to rise - of course it will. Thats paying for the million + new unemployed that will be created and also costs in the NHS rise faster than general inflation. However when budgets rise slower than inflation and growth then they are cuts in real terms. Again simple facts.
Finally your point that in a recession GDP goes down so public spending should. I use % of GDP as it gives comparisons across countries - not that its always the best measure of needed spending in one country. However what the international comparison clearly shows is that our public spending is not high in terms of our competitor nations. We could easily spend more to get a better level of public service.
As for " budgets should reduce when GDP reduces - even if you accept that argument it would not amount to cuts on the scale that Cameron wants. anyway the lessons from previous recessions are that cutting spending makes recessions worse. Hence no other country in the world is slashing budgets in the way the tories want to. Modest cuts of a few % might be OK once recovery is strong. Massive cuts at this point is simply stupid.
So - this is why I find it pointless debating with you Zulu. You make factually incorrect ludicrous comparisons. You make up things you claim that I will say. Its pointless debating with someone who is incapable of rational debate.
[url= http://neuearbeitmachtfrei.blogspot.com/ ]neuearbeitmachtfrei[/url] - Right wing ratings and the only reference to neue arbeit and the labour party I could find
Tron - the myth of the state of the economy and the moral panic over public sector pensions is a classic example of the big lie technique. When you have the papers on your side and the BBC cowed by threats of dismemberment your lies soon get accepted as the truth.
contrary to the myths
UK is a low tax low spending country in comparison to our competitor nations
UK public sector is relatively small compared to our competitor nations
Public sector pensions are not " gold plated" and are totally affordable
Thee is no need for massive cuts in public spending now. This is a political choice not an imperative.
The Government stand to make Billions when they sell their shares in the banks... as TJ says its all political. Look at the areas that will be most affected by the reduction in staffing of the pubic sector, there are not many conservative strongholds! Labour did the same with slashing subsidies in agriculture etc and investing the money in schemes that mainly benefited inner cities. Its Political! 👿
the myth of the state of the economy and the moral panic over public sector pensions is a classic example of the big lie technique. When you have the papers on your side and the BBC cowed by threats of dismemberment your lies soon get accepted as the truth.
It's impossible to give the idea that the economy isn't in a bad state any credence. Various economic bodies and ratings agencies have been making noises about us needing to sort out our deficit. It's something that can be objectively assessed by external bodies. You might argue about the extent to which cuts need to be made, but you can't claim it's an outright lie.
I'd say a far better example of the big lie technique would be the WMD claims, the overblown threats of terrorism etc. and the associated threats to liberty in the UK, along with a couple of wars. Nobody could verify any of the claims as everything is kept secret on the grounds of national security, so it's a perfect lie.
I suspect there's very little data on public sector pensions that can't be argued as being partisan - most seems to come from the CBI or TUC.
Tron
No one doubts that the economy is in deficit and needs to be corrected. However the level of problems is deliberately being vastly overstated by the tories to justify the cuts they want to make. It is nowhere near ass bad as they want you to believe but independent assessments don't get any media time so folk come to believe the tory lie. Same with public sector pensions. There is a real issue but its nothing like as critical as the tories want you to believe
It is continually repeated and promoted by the tory press until people start believing it - this is the "Big Lie" technique.
While WMDs was a big lie but not a "Big Lie" - its not the same thing at all. There was no concerted media campaign to get people to believe it - there couldn't be because Labour do not have the press in their pockets.
there couldn't be because Labour do not have the press in their pockets.
😆
C'mon TJ - are you denying that government spending under announced plans will [b]rise[/b] through the course of the current parliament?
Cameron has asked most government depts to prepare budgets for 25% - 40% cuts.
The British army have plans for war with France, the Americans have plans for the invasion of Canada, regularly brushed off and updated, the Emergency services had a training exercise this week for a magnitude 8 earthquake in the UK - do I think that the existence of any of these plans make the likelihood of any of these events a certainty? or do I run around with a sandwich board telling everyone that the end of the world is nigh?
You have consistently and repeatedly told us how an evil TORY government would immediately slash and burn public services since well before the election... well, its still not happened, and even [b]if[/b] your allegations of a 25% cut were true, when adjusted for presumed inflation it amounts to an annual cut of approx 2% per annum, hardly the end of the world is it now Chicken Little?
Look at it this way, [u]a reality check[/u] - if I told you that you were not going to get a payrise for the next three years, would you run around saying to all your mates in the pub that I was giving you a 12% pay cut, and if you did, would they think you were being hysterical and alarmist?
did u really think the labour gov was gonna leave this country in a good shape! u didnt need mystic meg 4 that 1
jj55 - Member
The Government stand to make Billions when they sell their shares in the banks..
Around £30Bn. Chickenfeed when compared to the overall debt.
TJ - by the way, and just to clear things up - heres me using the Neue Arbeit comment over a year ago, on here, along with the reference to the Stasi, that categorically links it as a reference to the DDR rather than the Nazi's
http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-law-what-law
Zulu-Eleven - Member
Yes, I read that press release from the Neue Arbeit Ministerium für Staatssicherheit Too.
And heres one of the first recorded mentions of the phrase, from 2007, by Old Holborn, one of the more established libertarian bloggers, again with a reference to the Stasi and restriction of civil liberties by Zanu-NL:
http://www.grumpieroldmen.co.uk/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16971
So - an apology for the unwarranted, unfounded and false invocation of Godwins law please TJ!
Indeed, unless I'm mistaken, accepted usenet protocol is that the false use of Godwins law actually invalidates your own argument, ergo by definition, anything you've said in this discussion can safely be ignored by all as worthless hyperbole 😆
Sue_W - well said
Here's some more lefty propaganda
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/sep/10/coalition-cuts-poor-tuc
You have consistently and repeatedly told us how an evil TORY government would immediately slash and burn public services since well before the election... well, its still not happened
Small but significant point of order here: I believe that the government did pretty much immediately announce cuts of between 25 and 40% in public spending upon their non-election. The actual detail of which is not being announced until the October spending review which is yet to happen. Accordingly I think it is fair to say that TJ is right whilst at the same time your assertion that its still not happened is simultaneoulsy right, self evident and frankly superfluous to any discussion on the subject. 😉