So I guess if you decide to get a new car you'll have a Volvo for sale?
OK so I've spoken to two independent Volvo speicalists that have been recommended to me from the Volvo forum and both have said the same thing. Neither are crazy about the idea of using parts from a breakers yard as they point out that the saving, while potentially significant, doesn't result in peace of mind; you could easily end up with the same problem a few months down the line. They also said you could source a reconditioned part that would give more peace of mind, but the problem there is availability. They don’t know how long it would take to find the parts so any saving I make would need to be off set against the cost of finding something else to drive in the meantime.
They both agree that you could take the route of replacing only the broken parts, i.e. the pump and the reservoir, flushing the system out and hoping this solves the problem. They agree that this is less likely to work than be successful, in which case I would then simply have to bite the bullet and replace the whole system. That might be no great issue or, if it all goes wrong while I’m in the middle of a long journey with two kids and lots of luggage, it could be a right pain the ass.
Both dealers have said that their recommendation would be to replace the whole system with new parts, meaning that the realistic opportunity for saving is on labour. Indie dealer is £6o+ VAT, the Volvo main dealer is £115+ VAT. There is a saving of about £400 by going to the indie but again the offset is that I need to get the car down to them, which is half a day each end.
My mother inlaw always takes her little Hyundai to the place she bought it from. £700 for a clutch. I had got her a quote of £330 from mr clutch but she "always takes it to the main dealer"
Why does it need to be a Volvo specialist at all ?
It seems as above, you've already made up your mind on this.... Go shopping and report back on your new shiny toy 🙂
to be fair .
id have gone with the dealer at 700 quid for a clutch change rather than let MR clutch (who i know are a franchise but the staff they employee from what i could see when i was in getting a quote are the ones that get let go from kwikfit..).... i was only there for 10 minutes but already decided id rather do it my self than let them near it.
i paid 450 at a known garage rather than let those cowboys do it for 300....
garages are so variable - even down to the guy on the ramp on the day within the same garage i can understand the Ops hesitance.
Bought the new car yet? Whatcha get?
[quote=trail_rat ]id have gone with the dealer at 700 quid for a clutch change rather than let MR clutch
I'd go to a proper, non main dealer garage myself. Which is indeed what I do. I've only used the services of a main dealer a couple of times, and they were so incompetent the last time (which I think was related to them being a main dealer) I'm never going back, it's totally unrelated to price.
you dont understand how bad the mr clutch i was in was.
Why does it need to be a Volvo specialist at all ?
It doesn't but it gets me peace of mind that they know what they are doing and since their labour rate isn't going to be materially different to anyone else, then why would I add in another component of FDU (fear doubt and uncertainty)?
It seems as above, you've already made up your mind on this
I have mande up my mind and just 10 minutes ago instructed the main dealer to fix the car.
I was told I needed a new rack and all ancillaries by Citroën after my steering fluid exploded all over the engine bay and I lost steering. took it to an independent and turns out the pressure sensor bolt had split causing fluid to be fired out he spotted it immediately and the fluid in the engine bay centered around that particular bolt he sent me to the dealers to pick up a part. 45 quid for a new one and it's fixed, took ten minutes and was charged 20 quid for labour and steering fluid top up. Dealers aren't always the best option
I wouldn't touch mrClutch with anything.
I have mande up my mind and just 10 minutes ago instructed the main dealer to fix the car.
Theres a dealer somewhere where the staff are high fiving themselves now as a simple repair job a normal garage (with knowledgeable mechanics, not parts changers) they are now earning £4k for.....
...and elsewhere there a cock wombles on the internet doing the same thing because think they know best about everything.
Really if you think you know best you come and fix it and give me the same three year guarantee that the dealer will give me.
Geetee - Fingers crossed they find a cheaper fix as they undertake the job.
Really if you think you know best you come and fix it and give me the same three year guarantee that the dealer will give me
But only on that component... what if the engine goes pop in 3 months !
"what if the engine goes pop in 3 months !"
do you buy a new house every time a fuse blows as well ?
I think most of the difference in views on this thread stems from the fact most of us are probably seeing your car as one which has fallen towards bangernomics territory (9yrs old) and you appear to be viewing it as one where by reliability is key.
I can't help but think you'll end up changing it sooner or later anyway.
Don't ask the question if you don't like the answer, pretty simple bangernomics really.
[quote=trail_rat ]you dont understand how bad the mr clutch i was in was.
I totally accept that - have never been in one myself, but from your comments assumed they are similar to KF, which I'd never set foot in again either. I note that I wasn't describing them as "a proper garage", which is presumably where the confusion lies!
Regarding the OP's problem, have we established beyond reasonable doubt that the main dealer's diagnosis is correct? It appears's he's been getting quotes from independents on the basis of that diagnosis rather than them looking at it...
The funny thing with the bangernomics comments is that I don't feel I do that (most of the time, I tend to keep cars until they fall into that, but don't spend much time there before I get rid). I simply don't go for the new car, main dealer route either, there is a middle ground, and that's where I'd suggest we are with this. Though I suspect many people might disagree with my self-definition given I wouldn't pay a repair bill like that for my car as it's worth far less than that!
Don't ask the question if you don't like the answer, pretty simple bangernomics really.
I don't mind that there a potentially much cheaper possibilities. What I really cannot stand is douchebags who think it's perfectly reasonable behaviour to accuse people of being lying, duplicitous douchebags, which is what you're doing when you suggest that main dealer is lying about what's wrong with my car.
I guess that says a lot about you as a person (not you specifically in this instance Firestarter but there are people who've been doing just that). I know, like and trust the people at my main dealer. They've serviced my car for five years and I've never been given a bill for anything other than consumables and the car has never had a problem more than these.
Two independent specialists have said that if a main dealer has said there are metal contaminents in the whole system, including the rack, then there's no reason not to believe them. They've also said you could take a speculative appraoch and try to flush the system and replace only the motor but there is a reasonable chance the steering rack will give up as a result. Not certain, but better than 50/50. It might not happen, in which case I could save a lot of money. If it does happen it could happen somewhere terribly inconvenient, like half way across France on the family holiday or on the M6 to Manchester from West Sussex.
Given that I'd have two young children in the car on both those occassions, I'm more than happy to spend the money on a guaranteed fix. That represents value to me, as in benefits minus cost over risks.
Other people have easier lives and can cut corners. I don't and I don't have trust issues with people either, which probably accounts for a lot of things.
Fair enough but personally I'd not spend that on a repair but than again mines not worth as much as yours most Id spend on a repair before getting shut is about a third of cars value, granted you may buy a new dog lol. I was hacked off thinking I had a new rack to buy but went elsewhere to reduce labour costs that's where the mechanic spotted the real problem perhaps the dealer would have spotted it once they began the job but perhaps not.
A car you know though is worth a chunk more to you than someone else when debating chopping it in too. I'd hate to get rid of my Berlingo as I in know it's a solid car
TBH metal filings in a V70 PAS system are easy to spot as there is (quite often) a filter in the system, usually in the reservoir.
The main dealer option, you are paying a lot for convenience. You'll get a cheap or free loan car (probably a Volvo?) and the repair will probably be done in a day, and it'll be all new parts, with a guarantee. But it's at least a grand more expensive. But all those other things you don't need to deal with are covered.
But it's at least a grand more expensive
The parts would cost the same (unless I went with parts from a breakers yard but we've been through that option at least half a dozen times here). The saving is the labour and amounts to £250, which is the difference between the main dealer and the independent dealer.
So £250 is the price for convenience, i.e. not having to take the car down to Hastings, which is 50 miles away, and I think that's more than reasonable.
What I really cannot stand is douchebags who think it's perfectly reasonable behaviour to accuse people of being lying, duplicitous douchebags, which is what you're doing when you suggest that main dealer is lying about what's wrong with my car.
Don't take it so personally - folk are only trying to help you on here by suggesting that you might want a second opinion that's all. You came on here asking for opinions right?
They are covering their arse. And doing it absolutely by the book.
The book is the key.
Main dealers have set ways of doing things. Replace X, then replace Y, etc. So for example if you have a fault on your DSG gearbox VW get the book out and quote the VW approved price, which is about £1800 for my car.
Go to an indie, they will probably order the part and charge you less for labour, but do the same job because replacing the mechatronics is a set well known job and doesn't require any farting about.
However on this particular issue I did a bit of digging and there's a DSG mechatronics refurb place in Nottingham that'll refurb yours for about £400 if you remove it and send it. So you could, if you had a pretty friendly garage, get them to remove it, you can send it over and they could refit it afterwards. But they won't want your car sitting around for ages so might be a hard sell.
Then with a bit more digging I discovered that you can actually service the units yourself pretty easily if you can get the parts, and I found someone in Denmark that supplied them. £160 € and about 2 hours work.
So there are many ways round that particular fault, but garages won't want to mess about, they want to get jobs done in a hurry.
Your PS system seems similar. There are creative DIY ways round it but not things a garage will want to do. If I were you I'd consider asking an indie about a joint DIY approach. So say they replace the pump, drain and flush, then you drive around with a magnet in the reservoir cleaning it out as you go.
In the grand scheme of things, £250 for not having to spend time driving back and forth for 4 hours, it's not the end of the world.
Thanks for the update.
FWIW Audi and Toyota in Guildford lied about necessary work on more than one occasion. I was just sharing that experience.
So say they replace the pump, drain and flush, then you drive around with a magnet in the reservoir cleaning it out as you go
Realistically speaking there's no way I would even consider doing it in that order. Purge, flush then when it's clean replace. Why stick a new pump in only to expose it to contaminants?
Yes, of course - that wasn't intended to be an actual set of instructoins 🙂
My two thoughts...
"[i]Given that I'd have two young children in the car on both those occassions, I'm more than happy to spend the money on a guaranteed fix.[/i]"
But it's not a guarantee that it will definitely not fail again (inside 3 yrs), it's a commitment that they'll cover the cost of new parts [b]if[/b] it fails. I realise this is semantics to an extent as a complete new system really should not fail again (inside 3 yrs).
"[i]...there is (quite often) a filter in the system, usually in the reservoir.[/i]"
In that case there aren't metal filings in the system, there are metal filings in the filter. That is precisely the point of a filter 🙂
FWIW I would have flushed a couple of times with new fluid, then new pump and flush again, then either keep my fingers crossed or dump it through the local auction while it's still working. It would sell for less than you'd get in a private sale, but not £3k less.
FWIW I would have flushed a couple of times with new fluid
I wouldn't even know where to find it; under the bonnet somewhere would be my guess but the only thing I've ever look at under there was the oil and the washer fluid. I wouldn't even know where to begin with your suggestion, as valid as it might be.
If you want to have a reliable car why don't you know how to check the basics in an engine? Power steering fluid reservoir isn't exactly hard to find. If you don't know basics like that you should take the time to find out, even if you don't intend on doing work yourself, as it'll help you figure out if garages are trying to fleece you for, let's say, picking a random example out of thin air, £4K worth of work which probably mostly doesn't need to be done? 😉
FWIW my last lease car needed a new gearbox, a fancy 6sp one in the first year. It was done under warranty but I saw the bill and it was £3k. So £4K for a power steering issue just seems bonkers.
be more robert and less john.
john thinks his motorbike should run without issue and he doesnt need to know anything about it because he paid alot of money for it.
robert thinks that looking after his motorbike means he will be able to identify when its starting to go wrong rather than chasing his tail repairing it when its broken and letting him down in the middle of the desert !
(zen and the art of motorcycle maintainance)
(not a dig and saying you should DIY everything at all , im just saying that knowing your machine a bit better will place you better in future)
or dump it through the local auction while it's still working. It would sell for less than you'd get in a private sale, but not £3k less.
This is what I'd do, or trade it in against a newer model at one of those car supermarket places. Dealers will normally assess the car cosmetically and on mileage and history when giving you a trade in value and you're not obliged to reveal the steering issue. You'll possibly get more for it like this than at auction, and the dealer will then just send to auction anyway.
Geetee I feel your pain. Few years ago I bought a lovely S60 D5 sport (2005) model full Volvo history and 12 month warranty. After 4 months the car failed to start and was returned to the Volvo main dealer. After a few days they advised the entire engine management system was shot. Leaves had blocked the drain holes in the scuttle board and water had ingressed into the system via the plenum gasket. Total bill -£3k. I said ok, as was covered under Volvo warranty. The claim was rejected as the warranty didn't cover water damage.
I took Volvo to court via trading standards but eventually Volvo offered to pay half.
Point is their cars are expensive to fix , parts are expensive. My car was stuck at the main dealer in bits so couldn't take it to an independent garage. Plus they were going to charge me the labour which was at over £1k already.
Barstewards. Not touched a Volvo since mind... 😥
why don't you know how to check the basics in an engine
Because I have neither the time nor the inclination. Apart from wasting time on here replying to prattling remarks like this one, I have a full time job, a wife who has a full time job and has just taken a major promotion and is trying to balance that with a tricky health condition and we have two children aged seven and four who are a gargantuan handful.
I also like to ride my bike, take photographs, put on exhibitions, be involved in supporting the local community, look after my dying father and make sure that my mother doesn't have a nervous breakdown in the process of caring for his dementia, support my best friend of 30 years through his acrimonious divorce while he also transitions to becomes a she, run the house day to day including two nannies, one of which is off on maternity leave and occasionally cook dinner for friends.
Does that answer your prattling question?
Geetee I feel your pain
Thankyou; your sensitivity and empathy is in stark relief to the other idiots. Fortunately I am very happy with my dealer and my Volvo.
Shame you've been scared into leaving it with the MD.
I've a very trusted indie in East Sussex that could have done this fairly.
Once the work's done, would you post the invoice up for us?
Geetee, don't even bother responding to most of this ****tery.
Calm down. I think some got excited because they don't want the OP to suffer loss to a main dealer. 🙂
****tery? People on here have tried to help the OP and all the OP can do is rather than offer thanks, just seek to belittle, disagree with or discredit any advice he's been given. What was the point in starting this thread if he was completely happy with his dealer and his Volvo from day one? Wast of all our time!
I wouldn't even know where to find it; under the bonnet somewhere would be my guess
GeeTee if it can't be fixed with one or both of these I call in an expert 🙂
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To be fair, I would make sure that's genuine Duck Tape rather than some cheap knock-off.
I think I know STW will enough to be confident those responding will have empathy now the OP's explained one Nanny is on maternity leave ;).
If you've more cash than time then the MD is a valid choice (I'd have probably opted for a change at that price but YMMV). Cars can be such a pita event when you make wise decisions. I bought a T5 but would struggle to buy another Passat after VW denied liability for water ingress through the bulkhead due to inadequate sealant and poor design problem even though the main dealers and interweb blamed them!
Duck tape?
People on here have tried to help the OP and all the OP can do is rather than offer thanks, just seek to belittle, disagree with or discredit any advice he's been given.
Some people have offered advice I am genuinely grateful for this. It helped enormously when scoping the viability of the alternative approaches with the other independent dealers, both of which said they were potentially viable but had down sides. I was able to review the down sides and dismiss them as not being viable options FOR ME (and my circumstances).
Where I’ve been frustrated is when the unspoken intonation of the those suggestions was along the lines of ‘you’re an idiot for listening to the main dealer; there is no need under any circumstances to take that approach (and you’re an idiot if you do); all main dealers are crooks (Hora!) they are all liars and will only tell you what will allow them to screw you for money; my dad could do it for half; why don’t you order the bit for a tenth the new price of eBay and do it yourself; my car needed a new gearbox and it didn’t cost that so your dealer must be a liar;’ and that’s before we get into misquotes of what is actually wrong and how much it will cost.
To replace the entire power steering system is going to cost me £3k and thanks to this forum, I have no qualms paying that. So thanks, genuinely and sincerely for the (four pages) of advice.
No not all main dealers. I can name two in my hometown who repeatedly offered me the Indie approach. Whereas another there went for gold. Literally.
No not all main dealers. Many main dealers are out to maximise income
Well none of them are doing it for charity so then I guess the question is, how sustainable is a business model that seeks to maximise revenue and profit by lying and cheating its customers. I mean of course it happens (look at 2008 for instance), but I have no reason to believe that my main dealer or any main dealer is a rogue trader. They all have far too much to lose.
A quick Google:
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.westwaynissan.co.uk
'AClark' through up a fair few containing it's various franchises.
Mmm not a bad rant geetee, not bad at all lol 😉
After reading your thread my opinion is that you're probably doing the right thing. The main dealer you use know your car, have all the specialist knowhow and any specific tools required. If they're also guaranteeing the parts for three years then as you say it's good piece of mind, they wouldn't guarantee rubbish. Also there's a lot of rubbish garages out there, lots more bad than good in my opinion so if you find a competent garage that you trust stick with them even if it does cost more.
hora - Member
Duck tape?
[url= http://duckbrand.com/products/duck-tape ]http://duckbrand.com/products/duck-tape
[/url]
You can even get it in zebra skin...
I run a P2 V70, with 150k miles. Its a great car - but there are big bills with these cars (thankfully I do my own spannering)
OP - get a quote for flushing the gearbox if its an auto - they are 'sealed for life' but generally seem to write the cars off when they fail around the 100k-120k mark. Especially so if you tow or the dipstick fluid is black.
I had PAS issues with mine - I cant remember how I fixed it now (few years ago), the symptoms were loosing the assistance on full lock turns, I replaced the pump and cleaned out the reservoir and possibly replaced the hose (?) wasnt much work/time.
I would have stuck a magnet in the PAS res just to see what/if metal was present or syphoned a bit out to see if it was green/gold flakes/shimmer before shelling out but sometimes in life its worth paying for problems to disappear when you have your hands full.
Rusty what do you mean by big bills and would they apply to 5+ yr old XC-60's for example ?
Mmm not a bad rant geetee, not bad at all lol
Yeah I was quite proud of that one also. It's a strange time in all honesty. Everything I wrote up there really is happening, there's very little melodrama but there is a heck of a lot going on.
Thanks mate. Your post made me smile and feel a little reassured that I'm doing the right thing.
Oh well no Duck tape to be used.
Realistically speaking there's no way I would even consider doing it in that order. Purge, flush then when it's clean replace. Why stick a new pump in only to expose it to contaminants?
Ok, so the PS pump has failed . How are you going to pump PS fluid around th system with a broken pump?
I suppose there is probably a way using a pressurised canister , jacking up the front wheels, disconnecting the PS return line , then doing a power flush that way.
Reality is source a second hand PS pump, use that as donkey to purge the system, then buy a shiney new one once the system has been purged
And there isnt a filter in the bottom of the PS resevoir . Some owners fit a magentic filter inline instead , then change this at oil change time, supposed to increase life of all PS componants.
Yes, drive a V70.
Geetee , top left hand corner of the engine bay . Its black and oily.
Did you check GSF and ECP for parts prices?
Mine ( d5) came in at £750 for the rack and PS pump. Add in maybe £100 for PS fluid , some flexi hoses and some petrol to clean the resevoir out with.
Good mechanic should be able to do that job in 6 - 8 hrs.
hey ho.
At 9 years old you might still be able to buy the aa warranty thing that pays out up to 1k. Not going to help this time but might in the future
jambalaya - Member
Rusty what do you mean by big bills and would they apply to 5+ yr old XC-60's for example ?
I only know Volvo stuff from our V70 and looking at XC90's because the Mrs is after one as her next car.
So far our 150k mile V70 has had front wishbones, quite a few sets of discs all round (consumables), handbrake mechanism rebuilt, new handbrake cables, PAS issue, boot lock mechanism failed (rebuilt it), rear windscreen wiper motor seized (rebuilt it), front top strut bearings/ spring mounts/shock absorbers, EML on as the catalytic converter has internally failed so needs replacing/Lambda sensor, £200 of gearbox oil flushed through it x2, keyfob flippy thing broke (hassle swopping bodies over due to transponder). Needs the breather vent pipes doing when I change the water pump/timing belt at 160k. The engine is good but I deliberately bought the old school simple 2.4NA petrol.
Not overly bothered at the work needed for its mileage and life its had but Volvos have had some large glaring issues over the years including fragile 'sealed for life' auto boxes, overly complex CAMBUS/security systems (13 BCM/ECU's on a V70!!!), wiring looms being damaged by water ingress/blocked with leafs, coupled with the potential extra headaches of a 4x4 drive system on the XC models means big money for anything a garage has to deal with. They are premium technical cars and need the wallets to support them.
Good support network/forums coupled with cloned VIDA/DICE diagnostic tools means they arnt [i]too bad[/i] for upper DIY skill levels.
be more robert and less john.
Just read first few chapters, was thinking the same thing.
OP - without wanting to get on your case, it's probably worth noting that you are expected to be able to identify what's under your car bonnet as part of the driving test. Not least because things like breake and PAS fluids are pretty safety-centric to the whole driving experience. I understand you don't want to get into a long involved process of learning car maintenance but you should at least know where the important stuff is.
forgot to add to the list - 2 rear brake calipers (seized pistons), needs a front caliper (also due to sticking piston), pair of ABS reluctor rings which also lead to faffing around trying to quieten the CV joint half shafts from groaning (fit XC90 bolts to a V70 cures it). Exhaust hanger bracket snapped.
Edited to add- the alarm back up battery needs replacing (cant be bothered - have pulled #11 fuse for it)
This is on a car that has 5k oil and filter changes (only because I service our 3 vehicles myself so 5k changes makes it easy to remember) , genuine Volvo parts used everytime, is washed thoroughly underneath in winter every week, and had full Volvo service history until we bought it at 79k miles.
Still a great car though.
Rusty many thanks ... I think that's Volvo excluded it seems a long list, I am a bit surprised you are buying another. Never really spent anything on my Mitsubishi Shogun*2, Toyota*2 (inc Rav4), Audi Quattro and the only money I had to spend on my Porsche over 9 years is due to it not being driven for 6 months (battery and tip gearbox component). I tend to keep cars 10 years plus.
@squirell perhaps the OP should buy a Cayman, all that's visible is the washer fluid, radiator and oil filler caps. Then everyone would get off his case !
I'd buy another V70 because they are good value for older models, they are also galvanised so dont rust and built like absolute tanks underneath. The seats/ergonomics/interiors are also brilliant and bulletproof.
Im not so sure on buying her an XC90 my preffered option is the Honda CRV but hopefully thats quite a few years off yet. I can see ours needing a replacement box at some point but I'd spend the £2k on it and change it.
Let's be honest rnp. You gave done a bunch of that because like me your fussy and proactive.
Most folk wouldn't do half if that and it's still work grand.
Ergo most users would get the magic im not spending money on it till it needs loads at 10 years old ah wait its falling apart let's buy a new one.
Let's be honest rnp. You gave done a bunch of that because like me your fussy and proactive.Most folk wouldn't do half if that and it's still work grand.
Ergo most users would get the magic im not spending money on it till it needs loads at 10 years old ah wait its falling apart let's buy a new one.
Did you post that before you had coffee TrailRat? 😀
my phone has a really shit autocorrect apparently.
But the point was that in RNP and my world we change things proactivly but both our cars would likely fulfill most folks expectations of not needing and seemingly major anywork till 10+ years old because it starts stops and passes mot.
folks expectations of not needing and seemingly major anywork till 10+ years old because it starts stops and passes mot.
There is more than a degree of truth in that
OP I would seriously consider leaving the brakes and discs until they really are needed (sensors ?). Was advised to change on my car and it's done another 15k miles. If you change discs pads have to be done, it may well be pads are not that worn and discs are ok dor a bit.
There is more than a degree of truth in that
In someways me and RNPs condition is a curse.... in others its positive 😀