Management should be in jail. Shocking situation! £90 million in fines, who pays them?
The consumer. No way will anyone else.
so much for private being better
Costs and ageing infrastructure; the eternal scapegoats of utilities firms operating with pipework that was installed, in some cases, centuries ago. The CEO saying that they'd never do it again can only beg the question of why it was done at all.
The dumping afforded the company “considerable financial advantage” because it avoided penalties of more than £90m, according to Ofwat, from failing to meet strict standards on discharging wastewater.
So Southern Water are no worse off after the fine. In fact they might be better off.
Management still getting paid, bill payers pick up the bill.
Management should be in jail.
Yes
Shocking situation!
Every water company knows the EA don't sample at weekends, SEPA are even worse, and desperate since the hack
£90 million in fines, who pays them?
It will be ultimately the shareholders, the bills are set for this AMP, OFWAT are alive to fines being passed through
so much for private being better
Sad to say that this isn't as black and white as you would hope, the entire industry, regulators and even pressure groups know that there are fundamental issues that aren't being dealt with which all try to avoid as they are too difficult never mind the gaming of the system by some
SAS were lately focused on beach plastic until after the final determination for the water companies then remembered what they were called. Timing was very suspicious.
I looked a a private sewage plant directly discharging on to the beach of one of Scotland's 10 worst bathing waters. SEPA wouldn't even enforce on the outfall that was 200m short nevermind the outdated overrun treatment process
...bill payers pick up the bill.
Although ultimately Southern Water's income comes from its customers it does make hundreds of millions of pounds in profit.
Two years ago Southern Water was forced to give rebates totaling £123 million to its customers due to its failings in sewage treatment.
At the time Rebecca Long Bailey called for a criminal investigation. The case for a publicly owned and accountable water industry serving the needs of both customers and the environment is strong.
Sadly it is an election winning policy which the Labour Party under its present leadership is unlikely to offer voters.
Strangely again no details of any mangers being sacked, just like all the huge mistakes in the nhs, eg stafford hospital and telford maternity unit and on crosrail with huge over runs on cost, no one waklked down the road.
But don't we now live in a society where failure is generously rewarded?
So if they do walk down the road it invariably is with a big grin on their faces to their bank.
Obviously the fill-yer-boots severance payments and bonuses rewarded for failure only applies to executives at the top of the tree, anyone lower down simply gets the sack.
It got a cheque off Southern Water in the last year for being shit.
Theyv'e been fined previously for similar offences I think, so the trotting out of the most disgusting phrase in the english language 'We will learn from our mistakes' is as meaningful as the wazz I just had
They've been leaking shit into the sea this year around Thanet (blamed on lightening strike).
All the way through the two Guardian articles I was constantly thinking ‘who was in charge, why aren’t they named, why aren’t they in prison?’. If I was a Southern Water customer I’d be genuinely seeking ways not to pay my bill. Oh and the ‘saved £90M, fined £90M wasn’t lost on me neither, no penalty there…’. ****ing scum bags.
If the fine isn't several times the amount they've saved by the lawbreaking then it's not a fine at all. The article suggests they've actually got away scot free here with a fine that's less than the amount that it would have cost to do it right... But even if it's as much, that still doesn't work because they have either the certainty of the cost of doing it right, or the risk of getting caught and having to pay out if they break the law.
Imagine if they attached the same sort of punishment to shoplifting- "OK so, you stole something worth £100 so your fine is £90, don't do it again". Lessons would be learned alright
Bloke in charge from 2011-2016 when all this was going on is called Matthew Wright. Plenty of news articles of him being ‘unaware’ whilst trousering a shit-load. I don’t suppose it’ll make much difference on here but if you (like the Corps would want you to) believe in ‘corporate governance’, he’s the ****er who needs to watch out when he takes a shower.
Big and daft - how many billions have they given to shareholders that could have been spent on improvements and how much have the execs trousered that they wouldn't have got if it were still publicly owned? How much repairs and improvements could that have made. Of course private is worse - they take huge sums out.
It stinks ( no pun intended) but its also the flavour of the month, sorry last 24 months.
I looked a a private sewage plant directly discharging on to the beach of one of Scotland’s 10 worst bathing waters.
One of ours here in Dumfries & Galloway?, kippford would be my guess
If it benefits someone, and they can get away with it (i.e. profit or neutral), they will do it.
trotting out of the most disgusting phrase in the english language ‘We will learn from our mistakes’
Perhaps they consider keeping incriminating site diaries a mistake.
Strangely again no details of any mangers being sacked, just like all the huge mistakes in the nhs, eg stafford hospital and telford maternity unit and on crosrail with huge over runs on cost, no one waklked down the road.
Guy at the top changed, I imagine there was a clear out but all probably via compromise agreements.
Imagine if they attached the same sort of punishment to shoplifting- “OK so, you stole something worth £100 so your fine is £90, don’t do it again”. Lessons would be learned alright
Go to the magistrates pages of your local newspaper, look at the fines for driving without insurance. Look at how much you pay.....
Big and daft – how many billions have they given to shareholders that could have been spent on improvements and how much have the execs trousered that they wouldn’t have got if it were still publicly owned? How much repairs and improvements could that have made. Of course private is worse – they take huge sums out.
The picture is slightly more complex than that but OFWAT have weak and I don't believe WICS is any better. In short could it be done better, yes. Was it wonderful in pre privatisation days, no.
One of ours here in Dumfries & Galloway?, kippford would be my guess
No. They may have done something the beach has had four poor's then an excellent. Water quality sampling doesn't match the excellent..... ( Five poor's is beach shut) The adjacent more popular bathing water also failing and the MSP sounds like the Mayor of Amity
An old girlfriend of mine was a solicitor for Southern Water, based in their Worthing offices. Her full time job was going to court for them. Some of the stuff that happened was beyond belief and it wasn't all "ageing infrastructure " by any means.
guiding principle of the water industry.
CATNAP - (cheapest available technology narrowly avoiding prosecution)
although they messed up the prosecution part..
The picture is slightly more complex than that but OFWAT have weak and I don’t believe WICS is any better. In short could it be done better, yes. Was it wonderful in pre privatisation days, no.
But it was better and cheaper. No question at all.
But it was better and cheaper. No question at all.
Cheaper because the water industry treated less, operated to lower standards etc etc you are not comparing apples with apples
Better? LOL. Classic example is that in E&W most LA's didn't bother to maintain maps if the sewer network. NI almost went dry a few years ago, Scotland higher PCC, higher leakage, bathing waters that are being frigged by SEPA???.....
The water industry is a curate's egg, no model is perfect, all models have lots of questions to answer
The key issue is the risk to the directors. I was 30 yards away from the office of a CEO when he was writing his resignation letter because he might be going to jail. It focused the mind on that issue, the other issues get a lessor focus because the risk is less. It's the same for every company in every industry, the risk of jail time focuses the mind of directors
I live on the coast , and pay Southern water to pump my waste water into the sea. I live so close to the sea I could buy a macerator and pump it there myself.
I also windsurf in the same sea where they pump thousands of gallons of sewerage out , when it suits them.
They blame all sorts of nonsense, pump failure , freak weather , employee negligence.
One problem is the capactiy of the Budds Farm treatment works. It has to handle all th brown water from surrounding areas, plus a load of road water drainage. All across a flat area, if they do not open the stop cocks and allow untreated sewerage into the sea when we ave prolonged heavy rain ,then thousands of homes toilets back up and flood when flushed .
3 miles from the Sewage plant is a Blue Flag beach . The tests are pre announced ,so the water co hold back on discharge for the preceeding 24hrs to drop the colliform counts .
The EA have now started doing random checks though. One windsurf spot nearer the 'treatment plant' is called the skank , as it smells of decaying organic matter . I dont go there anymore.
Bet my bills go up , and the Directors still get big cheques as reward for failure is rife amoungst big plc's, as long as the shareholders get divvy's no one gives a shit.
Water is a commodity which has been community sourced for literally thousands of years, the idea that it should be under the monopoly control of a private company is ridiculous, unless you have got some sort of privatisation fetish.
The irreconcilable conflict between the need for maximum profit and needs of consumers and the environment is obvious. The very best you can expect is to minimise it.
Exactly - when your focus becomes profit not ensuing customers get clean water then you get what southern water have done
and really big and daft - we are comparing the same things. water supplied and sewage treated and on every measure private water has done worse performance and greater cost.
risk of jail time - utter bobbins. Has anyone been jailed?
Current criminal investigation could see the ex CEO jailed.
I live here. We can't swim in our own sea. It's raining today, that's another week of raw sewage. 😓
I doorstep drop leaflets for labour, if the party don't print a leaflet explaining the policy to nationalise water companies and spam the entire south coast they're mad.
Southern Water are a F DISGRACE. ☹️
TJ, you are wrong, it's very different. But don't let that stop you ranting
As for jail time, for water quality, https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/56/section/70
Not sure what the Scottish equivalent is
£90 Million is that it wow clearly not a big issue then.
Big and daft - how many have BEEN jailed?
And yes - nationalised service gave better service cheaper. all analysis shows so
Of course its the same - priovide clean water and treat sewage
Has any CEO or company director of a ‘recognisable’ UK PLC done jail time for corporate negligence? I’m sure someone somewhere has but I can’t recall any.
They wouldnt jail them. Too many fall guys on thecway to the top tier. Nothing evidential would make it to court.
Best thing would be 200hrs of community service, to be completed within say 4 months.
Picking litter of the coastline, all tje nappies, tampons, syringes, and plastic covered in shiite tjat the company they run has pumped into the sea, like its no problem.
Btw this is not new news, been going on for decade's.
Of course its the same – priovide clean water and treat sewage
What is deemed potable has changed as have the discharge consents of WwTW. Both mean more treatment, more treatment is more cost.
The FT article which I linked above backs TJ's claim.
"But the study claims they are not obviously more efficient than Scottish Water, which remains in state hands: its operating spending per household is about 10 per cent lower than the English companies.
Customers’ bills in Scotland have fallen slightly in real terms since 2002, when Scottish Water was established, to about £357 per household in 2018. This compares with a 10 per increase in England and Wales over the same period, from an average of £356 per household in 2002 to £395 in 2018."
thats simply due to not having shareholders to pay and scottish water is providing a service to the public not profits for shareholders
and of course scottish water has a much wider spread population to serve which is usually an cost increase
Article on ownership from 2018
https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/more-70-englands-water-industry-owned-foreign-companies
The FT article which I linked above backs TJ’s claim.
But doesn't necessarily count like with like, E&W have to bill, can't cut water off (rightly) so high debt spread into the bills, have to meter because they are pushed to reduce consumption, have to spend a lot on leakage because of resource constraints. I'll fall of my chair if a single SW WwTW has to meet the discharge standard that a Wessex water WwTW on a chalk stream does. If you think Scotland is head and shoulders above E&W you are drinking the cool aid. There is a reason why WICS isn't publishing up to date data on SW performance
If you think Scotland is head and shoulders above E&W you are drinking the cool aid.
Who mentioned anything about heads or shoulders?
I quoted from an article in the Financial Times. The article is well written and I have no reason to doubt its accuracy. Nor do I have any reason to suspect that the two FT journalists responsible for the article have been at the kool aid.
I don't suppose you have read the article or have any intention of doing so, but if you change your mind here it is again. https://www.ft.com/content/b60e062e-9712-11e8-b67b-b8205561c3feIf you don't have a subscription with the FT I'm sure you are aware that the FT is currently making it extraordinarily easy for people to circumvent their paywall.
Management should be in jail. Shocking situation! £90 million in fines, who pays them?
Shocking? Pah! you need to adjust your frame of reference. Who pays the >£8 Billion a year NHS medical negligence claims every year? Southern Water customers would pay £20 each to cover the fine if the cost of the fine is passed down to them..I suspect there will be laws to prevent that though and the fine comes off their balance sheet that affects the share price and ultimately investors who will demand changes are made, and those responsible are sacked, to protect their investments. So yes, bad people can still do bad tings but there is a system in place to ensure they'll pay for it with executives potentially doing jail time.
In contrast UK Taxpayers pay £266 each a year (so not a one off charge) to pay for NHS medical negligence claims - and they're on the up. An invisible annual cost to the British taxpayer we know nothing about and seems to slip under the radar of the Guardian because the story doesn't fit their political narrative, so nothing ever gets done to deal with the inept management and negligent medical staff. Would pay for a fair few nurses and a hospital or two, not to mention PPE supplies, if we put the NHS under the same scrutiny as Private companies (not an endorsement for private medical system before anyone pipes up - just the opposite).
Ah well - you would be wrong about the medical negligence stuff but don't let that stop your rant
1) payouts can be huge into millions
2) medical accidents are almost never deliberate act and almost never a single mistake
3) medical negligence / adverse incidents are well followed up and practice changes because of them. One neeedless death ( where the mistakes were made by a dozen folk over a couple of years) led to huge changes in practice. I can send you the FAI report and the documented change of practice if you want
4) medical adverse incidents in the NHS are not deliberate acts to increase profit.
if we put the NHS under the same scrutiny as Private companies
The NHS is under far greater scrutiny than private companies. for a start we have a duty of candour
How on earth did a story about Southern Water pumping billions of litres of raw sewage off the Kent coast, deliberately, to save money, turn into a discussion about NHS negligence claims?
Are we seriously suggesting that the NHS deliberately kills or mutilates people to save money?
If not what is the point of mentioning the NHS? Other than throwing in a bit of whataboutry to divert attention away from Southern Water of course.
Amusing is it not Ernie? Especially when the rant is so wrong on so many levels 🙂
thats simply due to not having shareholders to pay and scottish water is providing a service to the public not profits for shareholders
and of course scottish water has a much wider spread population to serve which is usually an cost increase
Couldn't also be to do with the cheap and easy abundance of water and an easy geography for storing it could it?
I don't think the abundance of water or the geography of Scotland has changed since 2002, and yet water bills in Scotland have apparently fallen in real terms whilst those in England and Wales have gone up.
As predicted, it rained. We can't go in the sea again. 😓
https://twitter.com/feargal_sharkey/status/1413911343422398467?s=21
The red dots are where they're pumping out shite I assume? And the blue dots> What do these outfalls look like? And where's that data from?
I don’t think the abundance of water or the geography of Scotland has changed since 2002, and yet water bills in Scotland have apparently fallen in real terms whilst those in England and Wales have gone up.
Yet the demand increases in E&W and availability constrained as abstraction is reduced to protect the environment. A E&W water has funded a £300m project to protect freshwater pearl mussels by stopping key abstractions. Plenty of other similar projects.
The red dots are where they’re pumping out shite I assume? And the blue dots> What do these outfalls look like? And where’s that data from?
Believe it or not all the water companies pump out shite even Scottish Water, they admit it in the bathing water status documents such as Ayr South
BUt not to the same level of illegality and not to protect profits
I don’t think the abundance of water or the geography of Scotland has changed since 2002, and yet water bills in Scotland have apparently fallen in real terms whilst those in England and Wales have gone up.
No...... But the population of England between 2002 and 2021 has increaced by more than the total population of Scotland which might also impact things more than a little (I CBA figuring how that breaks down within the water authorities).
So if the population of England fell low enough the water companies would be paying the consumers to use water?
A E&W water has funded a £300m project to protect freshwater pearl mussels
From the OP's link :
"The pollution damaged the shellfish industry, as faecal bacteria contaminated its product, making businesses unviable."
Presumably the judge was unimpressed by Southern Water's hard work in protecting the environment when he decided to fine them £90 million.
BUt not to the same level of illegality and not to protect profits
I agree Southern Water was exceptional, there maybe others, but as you infer Scottish Water will also be doing illegal activity to manage budgets and overspend
Regulators in the sector are complicit in the illegal activity, going to court is the exception not the rule, plenty of not looking for things that could be problematic
Oh look - actual facts. some of the the private companies including southern water are NOT reducing pollution
I agree Southern Water was exceptional, there maybe others,
Not news to me, it's a sector issue for the UK
SEPA meanwhile are still picking up the pieces from the hack. https://futurescot.com/caught-in-the-dark-web/
https://regulatoryapproach.sepa.org.uk/cyber-attack-service-status/
Before SW Water got fined £1m for dumping in the sea you regularly got the splatters in Croyde and although possibly coincidental one local gifted athlete who spent much time in the waves now has Parkinson's.