If you wish to fight it a starting point is
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm
It says a car park is not a road. Doesn't matter for much RTA stuff which is road or public place. Sorn laws refer to a public road. So if it isn't a road you can Sorn a car there.
Put your address in here and then click the blue line over the road/car park. This will tell you if the road is publicly maintainable. Use it all the time at work as land is often recorded as private but the road and verges have since been adopted.
https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/map
This will tell you if the road is publicly maintainable.
more worryingly it seems to show the OP’s carpark has fallen into the sea
Stick a card in teh window saying OWned by person in Flat .... Sorn registered but insured.
Spooky’s link is England only but here is a resource from ECC which might help. It presumably comes with a bunch of caveats that it is not guaranteed to be correct. Adopted does not mean they own the land it means they maintain it. I would not assume your factoring includes the parking spaces themselves unless you have some very explicit evidence it does (Like being charged extra for resurfacing or relining etc). The council adopted the Un-allocated parking spaces here, but the factor maintains the grass verge and flower bed surrounding it. It took about six months to clear that up so hopefully the ECC map is better than the WLC one - they ended up going back to archives and getting hand drawn maps - not that it’s stopped the psycho across the street shouting at anyone she doesn’t recognise using them!
you may be right that a sorn case is too low value to have made it to published appeal case - but it’s not new law so there is always the possibility of a belligerent cock (either at DVLA or car owner) determined to prove a point.
I’ve dealt with the DVLA over a car that was basically a box of bits, the previous didn’t SORN it and neither did I, not realising I had to as it hadn’t been on the road for some years. They were pretty helpful when I spoke to them and no fines were issued, despite the automated threat letters.
We have six spaces at the back of our house. The whole area is owned by 3 houses, including ours. I'd expect I could park a SORN car there because the area is privately owned.
It is publicly accessible though, nothing to stop anyone driving onto it... but then there's nothing to stop anyone driving onto most people's driveways?
At what point does a shared driveway/set of spaces become a publicly accessible car park?
Daft question but is every flat now privately owned or might some still be Council owned which would make the council a co owner. Not sure if that would have any impact on your case but I know a couple of years ago when my neighbour looked at resurfacing our "private" road it was complicated by the council still owning one of the houses.
That is super helpful spooky_b329 (for something else I need). Thanks.
Ah sorry linky no posty earlier! Here you go: https://cityofedinburgh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=fa297f2feb4e4beea8ce6b74943cfb51
If you want to follow the legislation it goes something like this: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/3025/contents/made defines the process of SORN. s2 clearly says "public road", which is consistent with the requirement to pay duty of vehicles kept or use on a "public road" https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/1 I don't think it explicitly defines public road. However the Road Traffic Act does, by cross reference to other legislation. In Scotland that legislation is: the Roads (Scotland) Act 1984: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/54/part/I/crossheading/general-powers-and-duties-of-roads-authorities
You have to go back to the law or have someone who understands it - see poly's link above. Some toss written by the AA social media intern isn't helpful. The question is whether it's on a public road or not. "Publicly accessible" discussion is irrelevant.
The question is whether it’s on a public road or not. “Publicly accessible” discussion is irrelevant.
The publicly accessible discussion is whether or not that constitutes a public road isn't it?
you can't know if it's on a public road is you don't know what constitutes a public road?
The publicly accessible discussion is whether or not that constitutes a public road isn’t it?
No.
Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!
I've just remembered, I got caught out years ago. I had a motorbike, lost my job and couldn't afford to maintain it so pulled it onto my garden path and SORNed it.
Fast forward, I don't know, a few months, I'd got a new job and thought "right lets see what state it's in." I dropped in back onto the road to make a start on fettling it.
I came out to it later to find it clamped. I don't know how long it'd been out there but it wasn't long. The fact it was SORNed hadn't entered my head, I'd simply forgotten. The clamper I'm certain wasn't the DVLA, it was either the council or someone random like NCP. Could've been the NCP operating on behalf of the council I suppose, now I come to think about it.
Exactly the sort of arsey letter you'd expect. I paid up promptly because I didn't want the DVLA to get wind of it, in a way I was grateful for them making me realise.
Then once they'd got my money, the bastards reported me to the DVLA anyway.
I’d assumed a comma wouldn’t work in a URL (do correct me if so).
You can, there's a series of special characters defined in the original spec. I can see it potentially causing problems though, I bet the STW forum's rendering attempt would shit itself for a start. Plus going off piste might make viewers think "hm, that's unusual" and be sceptical of clicking it.
These days you can put way more mad shit in a URL than you'd first think. Arabic URL, anyone? Though browsers are - rightly - getting increasingly fussy about shenanigans. I could for instance technically register a microsoft domain using a Unicode character that looks like an 'o' but isn't, but a modern browser will take one look at that and go "yeah right."
The vehicles excise act uses a different definition of road from the RTA. Access has nothing to do with it.
The test is whether it is a road maintained at public expense.
"
c Public road”— (a) in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, means a road which is repairable at the public expense, and (b) in Scotland, has the same meaning as in the M1Roads (Scotland) Act 1984
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/62
So there are two arguments for the OP.
1 A carpark is not a road. As per my link upthread.
2 This carpark is not repairable at public expense because he and other owners share the maintenance costs.
This is a tribunal decision regarding a car in a council carpark getting a ticket for not displaying a tax disc.
Result- appeal upheld. The carpark was not a road. Hence no offense. Council not entitled to issue ticket.
Not sure if this is relevant, but if you speed, drive the wrong way, drink and drive etc. in Tesco car park then you can still be done by the Police because even though it is privately owned it is accessible by the public
Not relevant. Those offences have a different definition of road and can also be committed in other public places like car parks.
For example drink driving
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/5
The excuse duty offense VERA 1994 S29 refers only to a road maintained at public expense.
if you speed, drive the wrong way, drink and drive etc. in Tesco car park
Are you sure? That doesn't make sense. Drink and drive perhaps, the offence is "drunk in charge of a motor vehicle." Does Tesco take out a Traffic Order to have speed limits set on its carparks? Have officially compliant One Way signs?
Reckless Driving maybe, rather than speeding, or variations thereof?
The clamper I’m certain wasn’t the DVLA, it was either the council or someone random like NCP. Could’ve been the NCP operating on behalf of the council I suppose, now I come to think about it.
DVLA doesn't do the dirty work themselves. They pay contractors (or I suspect allow the contractor to keep some/all the proceeds).
Are you sure? That doesn’t make sense. Drink and drive perhaps, the offence is “drunk in charge of a motor vehicle.” Does Tesco take out a Traffic Order to have speed limits set on its carparks? Have officially compliant One Way signs? <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Reckless Driving maybe, rather than speeding, or variations thereof?</span>
Drink driving, careless driving, dangerous driving, failing to report an accident, using a mobile phone etc all apply in a supermarket car park. They are offences defined in the road traffic act - and fall into the "or public place" part of the defintion. Speeding is usually pursued under the Road Traffic Regulation Act which is separate legislation and would apply only where a TRO etc is in place (ie. not usually a supermarket car park - although it could apply in Al's car park if it is council maintained!). However as irc says its irrelevant because the SORN/Vehicle excise rules are for a public road not simply a road or public place (the RTA does actually use the same definition of "public road" its just that 90% of the RTA applies on any "road or public place" which is differently defined). BUT the key question for Al is to establish that the place he left his car is not maintained by the local authority. My guess is he's paying for the grass to be cut not lines to be painted on the car park and the council pay for the car park even if he owns a share of the land under it. I've not seen his deeds, nor do I know his address to check the ECC map.
BUT the key question for Al is to establish that the place he left his car is not maintained by the local authority. My guess is he’s paying for the grass to be cut not lines to be painted on the car park and the council pay for the car park even if he owns a share of the land under it.
Sorry, even if it is council-maintained, it's still not a road?
Short of wading through actual legislation - which I don't care sufficiently to bother and am probably not equipped to interpret anyway - all I can find on gov.uk is 'off the road' (literally in single inverted commas).
The RAC advice is ambiguous, it says you can SORN on private land but not a public road, a public car park is neither of those things. The AA just directs you to gov.uk.
Sorry, even if it is council-maintained, it’s still not a road?
If it's part of the LA's adopted highway you'd need to have a lot of free time, and some amazing advocacy skills (or big pockets to rent them) to be willing to test that point in court. I say that without knowing where Al lives - but knowing the sort of parking areas that were built around Scottish council housing. It's very likely it's an area immediately adjacent to something we would all agree is a road.
Stuff such as double yellow lines and council streetlamps are also good indicators of a publicly maintained road. If you try and report a defect in the car park such as a pothole or streetlight not working, the council website will normally be very quick to send you packing, stating it's not publicly maintained and therefore not their problem.
Maybe that's a shortcut for Al then? Try and report a defect and see if they say "nothing to do with us"?
I love this thread btw, I knew from my own experience that this could be a murky area but it's pushed back my boundaries of ignorance, now I know it's incomprehensible in more ways than I even suspected before.
I worked beside somebody who had a very similar argument regarding 'private' parking near his house.
All I'll say is it cost him a lot more than the initial fine.
If it is a car park clearly seperated from the road by fencing kerbs etc then it isn't a road. Therefore there is no requirement for a vehicle parked there to be taxed if it has been SORNed. The fine is not valid.
This traffic specialist lawyer
https://thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk/2019/03/11/road-or-other-public-place-where-do-driving-laws-apply/
Gives this judgement as proving that a car park is not a road.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld199798/ldjudgmt/jd981022/clarke01.htm
Gives this judgement as proving that a car park is not a road.
It's irrelevant. That case deals with proper construction of a different term in a different act for a different purpose to OP's requirements.
In any case - OP should go (or should have gone, if the deadline has passed) with the approach of explaining the situation. I'm sure there are enough cut and dried cases of unlicensed vehicles on public roads that they won't bother bickering about some marginal unclear case...
I disagree. It is a good argument that if a car park is not a road for parts of the Road traffic Act then in the absence of any better definition it isn't a road for the purposes of the Vehicles Excise Act either.
Anyway, I agree that if the OP argues the case they may back off. If it goes anywhere the burden of proving that the location was both a road and maintainable at public expense falls on them. Are they going to go to the trouble for a case that is doubtful.
All this tells me is that the definition is woefully undefined and really needs clarifying. How hard is it to include off road land you're entitled to park in?
FWIW I've sorn'd a car off the road on a patch that probably falls under the same dubious status.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/2742/schedule/4
Interestingly defines lots of things but doesn't define 'public road'. So while you can reasonably argue (I agree) that the Road Traffic Act does define it, this (VED/SORN) is not a RTA matter and so not necessarily relevant. In the end, if the VED / DVLA think a residential car park is in scope then they'll fine you and your only option is to appeal - and even then it won't necessarily go all the way to court to create a proper ruling, they'd probably let you off 'as goodwill' and then repeat again somewhere else.
Not a well written piece of legislation.
Well that's it then, isn't it.
Ignorance of the law is no defence, so we (you) have looked up the relevant legislation which covers VED/SORN and it says you can't park on a public road. A car park is clearly not a road regardless of who owns it unless "public road" is defined within the legislation to be something other that what any reasonable person would call a road, and it is not.
I agree, but where it isn't defined that is just opinion. A pretty reasonable one in my book, but just an opinion.
The man handing out the tickets disagrees, has a different one, and right now while I think he's wrong it's just a difference of opinion, and you need someone qualified to make a binding ruling between us.
As you say, the man on the Clapham omnibus would almost certainly agree with us and consequently I reckon a judge or court would too - but it wouldn't then get to that because like I said, they'd probably cancel it out of goodwill and that's not the same as defining the answer.
then in the absence of any better definition it isn’t a road for the purposes of the Vehicles Excise Act either
The relevant definition of the relevant term is in the law relevant to untaxed vehicles - specifically s64 of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994. Someone posted this already. There is no mystery here.
Thanks all, glad to have brought about a good discussion.
@poly has it - that map shows my car park HAS been adopted (EH15 2LX if you are curious). Yes I do pay to get the grass cut etc and there are no double yellows. I guess I'll cough up, not much chance of them letting me off. I got away with it for nearly 2 years tho! I wonder what **** of a neighbour reported me.
Now to insure, tax, MOT and sell...(in what order, I am unsure!)
Insure>MOT>tax>sell. You can’t tax without a valid MOT. You can’t drive without valid insurance. You CAN drive to and from an MOT station without tax.
I own the entire solum in common with other proprietors
So all these other members of the public that live in the same block as you have access to the parking spaces? YOu have no named space that is marked up and belongs to you? I think you will find that it is the definition of public that is the issue here - the other residents are the public, and they have access....
"You CAN drive to and from an MOT station without tax."
If the test is pre-booked.
ji - no it’s not. That is an issue of whether it is “or other public place” in the road traffic act, the issue of it being a public road or not is as irc and I have said a matter of fact determined in by who pays for upkeep of the road surface (sweeping, gritting, painting, resurfacing)
Regardless, I think I'd still appeal with DVLA. What's the worst that can happen, they decline your appeal?
Short of hiring a solicitor, almost no-one is going to have gone to the lengths we have to work it out. At best, it's not clear. I'd suggest that it's unreasonable to expect someone to start wading through and attempting to decipher pages of legalese and start cross-referencing three different acts; they'd go to gov.uk where it literally says "public road" not "public road or other public spaces such as a car park."
Even if it's technically correct, it feels a pretty shitty thing to do to uphold it. Like, "aha, gotcha!"
I wonder what * of a neighbour reported me.
How long has it sat there without moving? If it's a while, I can readily see someone either going "I wonder if it's been abandoned and I should tell someone" or "that *ing car is still there!"
“I wonder if it’s been abandoned and I should tell someone” or “that *ing car is still there!”
or see that fing cyclist doesn’t pay road tax!
I’d still appeal with DVLA.
You can’t technically appeal it with dvla. You can certainly try to appeal the better nature / discretion of the person who will deal with it but I think it’s like trying to convince someone at the police that your speeding was for a medical emergency- they’ll likely say “ok tell the judge”.
So all these other members of the public that live in the same block as you have access to the parking spaces? YOu have no named space that is marked up and belongs to you? I think you will find that it is the definition of public that is the issue here – the other residents are the public, and they have access….
Do you know the setup of the OPs car park? I mentioned in an earlier post that I lived in a flat with a residents' car park. I owned a space. It was highlighted on the plan. It was a specific numbered space that was mine and only mine to use. The spaces had bollards and only I had the key to the one on my space. It wasn't first come first served in whatever spaces were available. If the OP has a similar setup to me I'd be arguing the case. A random private contractor going round clamping SORN'd cars isn't going to know the legal particulars of the land every car is parked on
Interesting about a public road being one maintained by the council. We've moved into a new build estate. The roads haven't had their final layer of tarmac, ironworks are raised, so roads haven't been adopted by the council yet.
But I'd still say it's a public road.
Interestingly we've SORNd a car but it's on the driveway, so definitely not a public road.
Regarding getting it towed by VOSA out of a parking space. I'd assume that as they could access the carpark i.e. no barriers, they assumed it was publicly accessible. Appreciate my driveway is publicly accessible, but just trying to get into their mindset.
Edit: Must say I feel like SORN is trying to fix a problem that doesn't need solving. ANPR should know when a car has valid tax/VED. So don't quite understand the need to state where and when a vehicle is SORNd.
