SORN and "off the road" definition

Publicly accessable or barrier access....

And is the space specifically yours or for use of all the people in the block

RAC say not (FAQ's at the bottom)

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/what-does-sorn-mean/

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

Your car would technically need to be on a private driveway and not in a car parking space as far as I know.

I’ve always taken it be must be on private land too - I can’t see how flat car parking counts as that. Time to pay up or get rid. Or find somewhere else to park it up.

But as a private owner with a shared right to use the car park (by virtue purely of being a private owner), how is it a public car park?

@trail_rat - source? If it is about accessibility, most private land isn't barriered?

I asked questions . I didn't state anything. I guess that makes the source you.

But you do know the answer here.

Go park it in Tesco car park. It's about as private as your flat.

Fight it and let us know how you get on - should make a good read on your blog!! 🤣

And is it insured?

@trail_rat, I was (surprisingly?) seeking a source for the relevance of your questions.

yes it is publicly accessible, no barrier. No it is not an individual private space for me.

Sounds like it is in deed private land but is not your private land ergo not a suitable sorn location.

Perhaps the factor has shopped you.

@the-muffin-man, I do like a challenge.

of course not!

You own the flat, not the land.  My son SORNed his car and we made sure it was stored on the drive, and not the parking spaces next to the house that anyone can use. He usually used a space.

No it is not an individual private space for me

Someone is probably pissed off there’s an unused car that never goes anywhere taking up a space then.

Parking wars can be epic!!

id guess that if its private parking, then its off the road

@trail_rat - source?

You don't own the land.

But anyway. I wish you good luck in your quest.

My position is that I have no idea.

But I have 2 questions.

Is it clear that there are restrictions on who can park in this car park?

Are you paying for this car park? Either a recurrent up keep fee or a one off pavement at the time of purchase?

To reiterate for those that haven't read it, the RAC that I assume are pretty savvy on this say that no, a residents car park doesn't count as off road.

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

No need for anyone to guess at anything.

The land belongs to whoever pays the factor. It could therefore be shared amongst the house-owners. Therefore , it would not be "public" land.

However, I know that the likes of supermarket car parks are deemed "public" by dint of the fact that the public has access to them. If there is no private access arrangement (e.g. locked barrier) for the land then I think it would fall into the same category.

I don't know.

My gut feeling is "can anyone park there?" If yes, it's not SORNable. If it's a privately owned car park restricted to residents, it is.

Ask the DVLA.

Do what a chap round here does buy/borrow a small car transporter. Park the SORNed car on that.

Depends on your parking situation. The bays round my flat are classed as private and cars have been left there on SORN and not touched when the DVLA van comes round most months (known hotspot). They clamp, sticker and tow cars on the main road around the estate but the whole road and parking area by my block is private land with each flat getting a numbered space that they actually own. I can see how the bays you have as a free-for-all won't be classed as private ground though.

If you wait a few more days and you'll get collared for no insurance too! That'll make getting future insurance fun and cheap.

 The block is former Council-housing with a few flats still owned by them.  They factor it on behalf of all.

i’d wager if the flats and parking were once all council owned then when  the flats were sold nothing about the status of the carpark changed. It would have been a publicly owned, publicly managed , publicly accessible space. Even if it’s now managed for private tenants it’s presumably still owned by the council if there’s not bit that’s yours on the deeds and  there’s presumably public access - which can just be pedestrian access - so it very well may be deemed not to be ‘off the road’.

maybe easiest to just ask the DVLA why they deem it to be on a road. Who’s observed it to be so.

When I had a flat with a residents car park, I did own my car park space. There were restrictions in the deeds like I couldn't build on it etc but the land was owned by me and was highlighted in the plans as belonging to me. This was in Scotland.

Check your deeds.

@theotherjonv - define residential? plenty to guess at.

@trail_rat thanks for your input, not. You were nicer before.

Relating to where you live / reside.

As opposed to a commercial or public car park.

@maccruiskeen just checked my Land Certificate - I own the entire solum in common with other proprietors

Solum is the foundations of the building and wouldn't cover the car park unless your car park is underneath the flats.

@wwpaddler my apologies, I meant the entire area including the car park.

@theotherjonv - source? or are you guessing?

I would assume that it's the same as say Tesco's car park. Private but public access. Certainly my block in Leith had car parking that was private but used by the Sikh temple and others as parking. It was this access that changed it from private to publicly accessible.

No sources.

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/what-does-sorn-mean/

source? The dictionary.

Look, you asked for thoughts, I've not only done that but actually provided a link to the second biggest motorists organisation's specific comment on parking in a residential car park. Sorry if it isn't what you want it to be, but that's what they say.

Can I keep a SORN-registered car in a residential car park?
No, once a car has been registered with a SORN, it can only be parked or driven on private land. You may park a SORN-registered car on a driveway or in a private garage.

But go on, challenge it, that'll clarify for your specific case.

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

There is every so often there will be a clamped car done by DVLA.

burko73
Full Member
Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round checking on sworn and taxed cars and whatever? That sounds a bit TV detector van-ish and I can’t believe that in 2023 the DVLA have the time and staff to drive round looking for trouble!

They’ve certainly been round here clamping and putting a big ‘untaxed vehicle’ sticker on the window.

Yep, came round here earlier in the year. Saw about 10 clamped cars in various streets including some pretty out the way places

 if you are interested in my crap. here’s my blog about emigrating:

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Shouldn't there be a comma before assholes?

Not only that, you've spelt it as if you're some septic from across the pond.

And no point arguing with trail_rat....

Now move your motor!

I can see why you'd assume it was ok and equally I can see the argument why it isn't (just too many people who have free access and shared ownership and no space that is "yours" if I understand correctly).  The RAC guidance won't be a specific statement of law but I suspect they know their onions on this stuff.

You could be in the vagaries of case law about what is private land here.

Is it that horrendous to mot/tax/insure it and then get it sold if appropriate instead of the aggro and risk of fighting (especially if also not insured)?

If it were me I'd not count on winning this one with DVLA or on any one answer here being definitive (especially mine😜).

Is there a “DVLA van” that goes round

They’ve certainly been round here clamping and putting a big ‘untaxed vehicle’ sticker on the window.

Again I don't know but, I would be surprised if it's proactive. More likely they've responded to a complaint.

Again I don’t know but, I would be surprised if it’s proactive.

They do have at least some cars fitted with ANPR which they use for roaming enforcement teams.
I assume they target areas which are known to have high numbers of untaxed cars (possibly using the fixed cameras to identify them) so a bit more proactive than individual level complaints.

alric
Free Member

id guess that if its private parking, then its off the road

TBH the "off road" part of it is a problem, it's just misleading, the actual requirements have very little to do with roads. The documentation you get from the DVLA for a SORN'd car is really poor too, it essentially just washes their hands of it and says that if you want to be sure you can park it in a particular place, ask your council. As a car owner it's always up to you to know and follow the rules no matter how weird they might be, but I reckon they set you up to fail on this one with all the "off road" references.

(Imagine being told "you can't drive this car across a football field" and going "right, no worries, I'll avoid driving it across a football field" then you get a fine and they say welll akkkshually, our legal definition of "football field" includes any public place that you can physically fit a football, fancy you not knowing that)

I got a fine letter for one of mine and even then the language was all "you have used the car on the road", which I think was probably true but only because the legal definition of "using it on the road" includes loads of things that literally are not using it on the road. So I thought, what the heck, and sent them a letter back just saying, politely, "I've not used it on the road, not by any sane definition anyway, I don't think I've done anything wrong and I don't think any reasonable person could have avoided this", and it was dropped. Though, I should say that the lag in the system meant I didn't get the fine letter til after I'd disposed of the car anyway, so I didn't have to worry about towing etc.

I mention that because a friend had his towed, from an off-road parking space which like in this thread he assumed would be fine and was 100% "off road", but which they considered to be public- and that was an absolute shitshow. He came home, found his car gone. Reported it stolen, was going through all the insurance etc, the next week he gets a letter through the door saying "we've towed your car and we're charging per day it's in the pound, starting the day we towed it"- so even though he taxed it and got it as soon as poss it still cost him a packet. Proper pulling-your-pants-down stuff imo

Cynical - are you not a solicitor by training?  Look up the legislation (and case law?) and pick your battles.

a sorn declaration is shall not be used on a public road (this is different from say drink drive / insurance law which is road or other public place).  The key definition then is public road, which is defined in Scotland as being “any road which a roads authority have a duty to maintain”.  Prima facie it seems like if your deeds do really say you are one of the owners, then you may have a defence.  BUT I would just caution that all the houses across the street from me have deeds saying they own a share of some parking spaces but since the deeds were created the council adopted those spaces as part of the highway.  The only way you will find out is by asking the council - it would surprised me if they are ex cooncil hooses and the land was not adopted.

@alpin

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Shouldn’t there be a comma before assholes?

Not only that, you’ve spelt it as if you’re some septic from across the pond.

And no point arguing with trail_rat….

Are your top two comments a formatting thing? TBH I found the editing clunky AF, I hated it. Much to learn ... and I'd assumed a comma wouldn't work in a URL (do correct me if so).  And yes I prefer the US spelling, I don't know why.

@poly yep I was a lawyer (not a great one) if you can point me to any SORN caselaw I'd gladly read it - I didn't find any and also assumed it was too low-value to have gone up the appeals courts route.  As the car park is owned by private individuals (including the Council) I had thought that I have a reasonable argument - I don't think the Roads Authority have anything to do with maintenance, only the Council - in their capacity as a factor only.

I can pay £80 (and potentnially get into more trouble) or fight it - Thursday being the last day to do so!

I don’t think the Roads Authority have anything to do with maintenance, only the Council

poly didn’t say The Roads Authority -  ‘a roads authority’. There are numerous agencies responsible for maintaining roads including  councils. Local to me it’s an agency made up of three local councils.

and ‘ownership’ and responsibility for are not the same thing. Your V5 makes you responsible for the car but doesn’t require  you to own it.