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I think steve's point though isn't to reduce the total usage, but to reduce (or even eliminate) the requirement for energy security
I don't think they are talking about being able to charge your phone when they talk about energy security. More like keeping factories, data centres, communication networks running, that kind of thing.
Hang on - surely tax paid on road fuel would be the same wherever the oil comes from?
Yes, but that's hypothetical.
Small fractions of biofuel aside, transport fuel mostly comes from oil.
The system works something like this:
Government owns the oil, and grants licences to extract it. The companies pay a tax on the amount they get out of the ground. Sometimes the oil price crashes and the government cut's this tax because it's oil is now worth less but still costs just as much to get out of the ground and it doesn't want the industry to stop completely (because other governments also have oil, often cheaper or easier to extract). Greenpeace jumps on this tax decreace as a 'subsidy'.
The oil companies then pay corporation tax etc on their profits.
And the consumer then pays more tax again on the price of the fuel at the pump.
[u]
And another thing............[/u]
Anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish knows what happens when other countries dick around with oil and gas supplies. Suez crisis, Gulf War, Russia Vs Ukraine. Even if the energy industry as a whole (both renewables and fossil) was propped up, is that a bad thing? Energy security is important, and in the short term at least this means making sure we have diesel. Subsidising renewables as far as possible is obviously preferable, but if trucks are likely to run on diesel for the next 20 years, then you need to have a plan for where that diesel is coming from in addition to how your powering homes and lighter vehicles.
Finally we deliver electricity at the voltage and frequency we do because of legislation - we don't control that legislation. In fact I think weight of having millions of 230V 50hz appliances and gadgets dominates that discussion - but that may change.
Yep ... though the way legislation is controlled is somewhat circular.
Frankly who'd want to be a supplier ... unless it had some sweeteners.
Prior to the ongoing energy crash <500 of Centrica Groups employees made about 200% of the profit for several years. If it wasn't for E&P and Trading British Gas and others would have run a loss ... and when the price drops the ones making the loss are then expected to cut their prices ... and if they do make a profit somehow they get hit with windfall taxes!
[quote=aracer]I think steve's point though isn't to reduce the total usage, but to reduce (or even eliminate) the requirement for energy security, which certainly is something which is a big driver with our current electricity supplies. I'm not sure his suggestions are necessarily that practical though, because along with the requirement to convert all households to eliminate that need, there are also non-domestic requirements for energy security which may be harder to fix.
Yes ....
Partly as said by Molgrips...
I don't think they are talking about being able to charge your phone when they talk about energy security. More like keeping factories, data centres, communication networks running, that kind of thing.
Data centres and networks could run fairly independently ... factories and especially heavy industry perhaps not....but that isn't my problem as a consumer...I'm not dismissing that requirement ... but saying it's a different requirement to domestic supply with very different requirements.
Based on this on page 7 you can see the shift in domestic to industrial usage (in ktoe) and domestic has clearly increased and industrial has decreased... from 1982 or thereabouts domestic overtook industrial and now is roughly twice as big. I'm not in the minority user/sector anymore but the majority.
(if you look through you can also see how cold appliances and wet appliances have become more efficient)
The point I'm making is I don't NEED 24x7 ... I'm not a foundry, I'm a house ... my needs are not the needs of heavy industry so why are the rules and legislation still set for heavy industry?
as igm say's they deliver according to legislation .... but why is that legislation the same??? It's not the same for more or less anything else...
I'm not sure his suggestions are necessarily that practical though, because along with the requirement to convert all households to eliminate that need
It's not that hard to convert the households ... all you need is the appliances
e.g. buy a TV/computer and legislation can say it must have a 12V in .... (as well) then as uptake comes on they an phase out the 230v AC. LED lighting cane made WITHOUT a transformer (half my kitchen lighting already runs off a single tiny 12v transformer)
No-one needs to be forced to use the 12V .. just given the option....
i.e. I personally would start off with lighting until I need a new TV/computer etc. then swap that for the DC capable one... etc.
The other half holding this back is the suppliers are not allowed to offer cheaper (less uptime) electricity ... you can't pick a tariff for "99.9%" uptime because they are not allowed to offer them. You pay for the ability to do our ironing and use an electric kettle at 2am whether you want it or not....
In reality legislation permitting this isn't anywhere near as difficult a changeover as coal gas to natural gas....
The other half holding this back is the suppliers are not allowed to offer cheaper (less uptime) electricity
This is happening with industrial customers now, many of whom are happy with say 99% availability.
It will come to domestic customers in due course.
Google demand side response.
Of course it used to exist as economy 7.
It's unlikely you will be encouraged to do load heavy activities overnight in future as the generation will be daytime focused.
So why won't domestic self sufficiency make sense?
Well in order to service around 6GW of domestic load (served by my company), we need around 70GW of domestic connections - but diversity means they never all run together so you only need 6GW further up stream.
Allow a bit for security (even 100% redundancy) and you only need 12GW of network in our area and our generation requirement from NGC and embedded is lower than that.
Conversely to do it self sufficiently you need 70GW of generation and storage.
And that is before you consider industrial and commercial.
Because there is decent diversity between them and domestic load, they have an effect on peak demand but it's not huge.
Go for the domestic self sufficiency route and you need to build a whole load more capacity for industry.
So you don't do it because over all it's blinking expensive. And it particularly hits the most vulnerable in society.
There is an argument about who pays what, and I'm fine with that being discussed, but it is another question.
(PS peer to peer trading is probably a good thing.
PPS I was there when senior ofgem figures said publicly that they wanted to see suppliers gone in five years - was that just for effect...? Who knows)
my needs are not the needs of heavy industry so why are the rules and legislation still set for heavy industry?
Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is. You have 240V single phase because it's one system that works for all your stuff.
Charles Merz
[quote=molgrips ]Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is.
No - it uses 3 phase, which is also available at the end of most residential streets!
So why won't domestic self sufficiency make sense?
Well in order to service around 6GW of domestic load (served by my company), we need around 70GW of domestic connections - but diversity means they never all run together so you only need 6GW further up stream.
Allow a bit for security (even 100% redundancy) and you only need 12GW of network in our area and our generation requirement from NGC and embedded is lower than that.
Conversely to do it self sufficiently you need 70GW of generation and storage.
Actually you don't need 70Gw for self generated because if people have control they can self regulate...
A milliwatt example being say phone charging.... you can use a low battery mode, not use services you don't need .. plug it into a battery or charger etc.
i.e. noone is saying all mobiles need to be capable of peak load 24x7.... so people self manage them.
PPS I was there when senior ofgem figures said publicly that they wanted to see suppliers gone in five years - was that just for effect...? Who knows)
I doubt it ... reason being the suppliers are scapegoats for all governments.
As energy prices rise (usually due to taxation of one form or another) utility companies make convenient scapegoats...
[quote="molgrips"]Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is. You have 240V single phase because it's one system that works for all your stuff.
So why have the same regulations .... ?
This is my point. Domestic supply used to piggy back industry (prior to 1980) but since then domestic has kept growing and industry shrinking....
and as ivm points out this is now changing anyway as industry increasingly don't need 3 phase...
Many modern factories could run on the old lighting circuits....
Last time I upgraded a server room (physically) the total consumption AFTER was less than just the air con before... and this was back in the very late 90's ....
So why have the same regulations .... ?
Not sure what you're on about. Factory and domestic electrics have different specifications and rules. Factories run on a different system and have different wiring regs.
Houses have 240VAC because it's convenient and it works for everything and it already exists. Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Steve - you can self regulate, but you still lose diversity, and you'll still need substantially more generation and storage.
At the generation level diversity means you need in the order of 900W per household. Yes I did say 900W and no you can't boil a kettle with that.
But because of diversity that's all you need provided you can group enough houses together.
Now if a self sufficient household wants to boil a kettle electrically you need say 3kW and if you want to run the oven at the same time that might be 4-4.5kW. Or five times as much as you need working together. Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
As for suppliers, there are logical reasons for getting rid of them, but it's not necessarily easy.
Oh yes, just for information, domestic load is also falling and has been for a bit. That's probably going to change if we all get EVs and/or heat pumps.
Yes - FIT systems will cut out if the grid is off, as they don't want the grid live while they are fixing it.
Interestingly I saw [url= http://orison.energy ]this[/url] which can run stuff when the power is out; it sounds a little dubious but basically it detects the loss of power so intentionally trips the RCD, islanding the circuits (not the whole house - it's a battery that basically just plugs into a socket!) it's attached to...
If it works I don't have a problem with that Phiiiiil. (As a senior manager in an electricity distribution company I get to say that sort of thing).
However I'd want to know far more about how it works (not the storage but that's fine, the continuing to power the home after a fault).
And they are remarkably unclear about what it does in a power cut (unless I missed something) which always makes me nervous.
Not sure what you're on about. Factory and domestic electrics have different specifications and rules. Factories run on a different system and have different wiring regs.
In order to SELL power you need to comply with a very very long list of regulations... just like selling credit (which is also one thing utility companies must offer) ... however unlike say banking the regulations are the same for selling domestic power as industrial power.
Historically (pre 80's) this is because domestic power was a small fraction of industrial power... so it made some sense. Since the 80's however the situation is reversed... and due to some of the outages in the 70's winter of discontent successive governments have had a fear of being the one that "let the lights go out" ...
Foundries need to run 24x7 ... you can't just turn them off - they take days to shut down and start-up... air pumps in coal mines need to run 24x7 .. etc. and of course hospitals need "machines that go beep" running 24x7... Of course other than hospitals we don't do these things like smelting and mining any more.
Houses have 240VAC because it's convenient and it works for everything and it already exists. Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Canals are designed to transport goods... the UK spent a fortune making them for about 15-20 years before they got superseded by railways... Today however canals are used mainly for leisure and railways for transporting people... we don't need compulsory horse stabling on canals... etc. it's a concept that is in the past. Railways don't need to transport iron ore... and most cement is trucked.... whereas in the past coal, ore and lime were transported right up the last mile into the factory..
The rail link to Ribble cement is now a nice cycle route... and instead trucks go in and out.
Most CONSUMER items now run low voltage DC ... (overwhelmingly in terms of numbers of items - less so on watts consumed) ... but we as consumers (and the largest sector in the market) are still dictated to by who can sell power to us and how by regulations designed and controlled by industry. (Much of which doesn't need 3 phase either)
The point is we don't [b]need[/b] 24x7 ... and for the items that are very convenient to be available 24x7 they can run off battery power... a dialysis unit MIGHT need some bigger batteries but not EVERYONE needs one at home...
Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Not short term though that's a longer term possibility... we do phone lines already!
First stage I'm suggesting is to legislate for consumer items to REQUIRE a low volt DC input....
This then allows consumers to decide HOW they power this... they legislated on low power lightbulbs...and they introduced digital TV.. I can't see how it would be hard to give a bypass and allow clean DC in on a TV or LED lighting...
[b]As a consumer I can then decide if I use mains delivered power or not on an item by item basis[/b]
Washing machines and dishwashers need a compulsary ability to take arm/hot water ... they used to all do this but it was legislated out. Then you can supply 30-40 degree PV heated water and you just need to run the pumps and motor... This is a major factor in why people don't adopt PV or geothermal water because they are not allowed to use it in wet appliances....
At some time perhaps clean DC could be delivered but that is in the future... well before we get there we need to enable the use of clean DC rather than the messy and inefficient conversion of DC to AC then back to DC as happens on todays solar.
[quote=igm]Steve - you can self regulate, but you still lose diversity, and you'll still need substantially more generation and storage.
At the generation level diversity means you need in the order of 900W per household. Yes I did say 900W and no you can't boil a kettle with that.
But because of diversity that's all you need provided you can group enough houses together.
Now if a self sufficient household wants to boil a kettle electrically you need say 3kW and if you want to run the oven at the same time that might be 4-4.5kW. Or five times as much as you need working together. Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
As for suppliers, there are logical reasons for getting rid of them, but it's not necessarily easy.
Oh yes, just for information, domestic load is also falling and has been for a bit. That's probably going to change if we all get EVs and/or heat pumps.
Your thinking like a Snr manager in a electricity distribution company 😀
My car battery easily boils a kettle.... OK it might take a bit longer (specifically the boiling and SLH) but the point is I don't need to boil a kettle the whole time... my batteries can charge and then I can use the stored energy to meet my peak demands.
Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
Or I could use alternatively heated water for a shower.... from gas heated to PV or geothermal... or even using heat exchangers AFTER I turn the oven off.... and combine these so that my PV water then gets kept warmer with the heat exchanger and then when i want a shower it's heated more by gas...
Same with the washing machine... I'm not doing boil washes anymore... 30-40 degrees is good for most stuff... but the main point I'm trying to make is why I don't generate my own energy at the moment... and the overwhelming reason is I'm legislated against using it without an inverter due to the items I can buy.
I can of course also perhaps cooperate with neighbours and swap a charged battery for a cup of sugar....
We currently do that with vegetables for eggs ...
Steve - I can agree with much of what you say, but you need to slow down and check a few things.
Hospitals, for example, generally have on site backup so they don't rely on a "24/7" supply. Even so they generally have a switched firm or auto firm supply (two forms of n-1).
Domestic properties normally have unfirm supplies (n-0) and if off are off for repair time.
A lot of what we are looking at is to improve the level of security for domestic customers as people have become more and more electrically dependent (and that is likely to increase with EVs etc).
Now home storage has a part to play in that, but it is an expensive option.
Fundamentally that is where I disagree with you - it's very expensive. Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.
And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
PS - Steve I actually support what you are trying to do. And it will work for a few.
But we need to make it work for all.
DC inputs to appliances doesn't seem unreasonable. It will add cost to have two inputs, and everyone pays whether they want it or not, but it's not unreasonable really.
Where do you live? Are you in my patch? Give me a shout by PM if you want to discuss.
I don't generate my own energy at the moment... and the overwhelming reason is I'm legislated against using it without an inverter due to the items I can buy.
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Moly - I think it's the goods and appliances that are the problem, not the supply regs (showing my age there). And that B word that reduces the size of the market we're part of is a problem in getting manufacturers to come in line. Even if the UK government specs DC inputs in legislation, the size of the market will mean it's going to be difficult to get manufacturers to do much. A pan-European directive would have more teeth and I suppose there's still a few months to go. After that we could always lobby the EU - there's nothing preventing a DC input in UK law to my knowledge.
Steve - seriously, PM me. I look after innovation these days and DC homes are interesting. There may be something of mutual interest, there may not. But shall we try?
Copy me in.
I've not understood any of the last page!
For a complete numpty like me ,should the first people I approach for my system be Tesla?
I've heard of them and I like their cars. Would they fit it or do they sub it out to the local cowboys?
Someone said that in a power cut you wouldn't be able to use your battery. Is there any point having a battery if that is the case?
Tesla power wall
Moixa Maslow
Powervault
There are a few off the shelf packages - which do off the shelf things.
Others are developing more interesting packages.
But if you have a hot water tank then an export limiting device and an immersion heater can be a good way to use excess PV.
Steve - I can agree with much of what you say, but you need to slow down and check a few things.Hospitals, for example, generally have on site backup so they don't rely on a "24/7" supply. Even so they generally have a switched firm or auto firm supply (two forms of n-1).
Domestic properties normally have unfirm supplies (n-0) and if off are off for repair time.
A lot of what we are looking at is to improve the level of security for domestic customers as people have become more and more electrically dependent (and that is likely to increase with EVs etc).
Now home storage has a part to play in that, but it is an expensive option.
Fundamentally that is where I disagree with you - it's very expensive. Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.
And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
...
DC inputs to appliances doesn't seem unreasonable. It will add cost to have two inputs, and everyone pays whether they want it or not, but it's not unreasonable really.
Yep I'm mentioning hospitals and dialysis machines simply because the arguments are always "but what about" (not just energy but education, benefits etc.) We end up making decisions based on a few exceptions not the overwhelming majority... and then making sure the minority are taken care of as exceptions.
Home storage is pretty diverse... the average hot water tank is a long way from being efficient ... and then it's often distributed through unlagged pipes etc.
Batteries are pretty cheap ... especially when weight isn't an issue... plenty of caravans and motor homes run off them... and they aren't particularly well insulated to start with.
Dual power devices shouldn't be a huge incremental cost... my Blueray already has an external transformer... my Amazon digital TV is actually powered from the USB out on the TV.... in fact I'm say with 24 mains plugs right now all of them feeding transformers ...from the router to USB disks to the PC etc. The only item in my office requiring mains power is a oil radiator I use in winter instead of heating the whole house when working from home.
If I messed about with some hot water plumbing however I could just have a single radiator on but redoing the CH is a pretty major task ...
Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
The true cost of an iPhone is a few quid... well less than £30.... but remember when a basic mobile phone was only for stock-brokers and they were the size of a brick ???
Despite the huge mark-up on production cost vs retail costs most of the least able in society seem able to pay for a smartphone (if not their power requirements and food) ...
I can buy a brand new car cheaper than a near top of the range MTB ... or I can buy a £500 MTB... if I buy a £6000 bike though I pay TAX.... if I import a whole bike I pay another 20% import duty... but the "least able to pay" can still go and get a decent used car for £2-3k.....
When you or I buy a XX/XTR over priced shifter, brakes or rear mech we pay tax ... SRAM/Shimano trickle down the tech so anyone can have a really functionally good hydraulic brake set for not much more than we pay for the brake hoses... (I can easily buy a full Deore set of brakes cheaper than some XT pads and new hoses) ... and they can go and buy a fine bike like a Calibre Bossnut for £500 because we are paying a lot more for some dubiously better stuff...
What I'm saying is making this mainstream actually benefits those least able to pay .... (far more than those who can)
5 years ago LED lighting was prohibitively expensive... today its considerably cheaper and the payback on energy is much faster... and it could be EVEN cheaper if they did away with the voltage converter/stabiliser in each individual spotlight...
Legislation say's you must offer a pay monthly direct debit... however it also prevents the least able to pay self regulating. When I was saving up to buy a house (for cash) I was as poor as anyone on a monthly basis ... low energy LED's were a big investment... and I spent a month at one point with £5 a week food budget for myself (not the kid) ... (I was earning a good salary but I treated it as savings for the house so every spare penny was saved - no nice bikes at the time)
What I really wanted was the ability to control my expenditure.... but energy legislation is entirely against that. I don't WANT a smoothed bill ... I want(ed) to save when I can.... and pay monthly... but you aren't allowed to do that... you are forced to smooth the costs which means speculating on an energy price for the next winter in order to bill me for this summer and in winter you are forced to give me an interest free loan on energy I used to collect the following summer???
Even paying quarterly I had to constantly read my own meters and then correct the bill... When I moved to the new house my electricity supplier refused to consider that my energy use would be different to the previous occupants and 2 years later I still got wildly inaccurate estimates. The energy company couldn't see that I monitor usage and adjust down ... if its colder we wear more jumpers or fleeces... and the upstairs has gone from 2-3cm of old compressed rock wool to 5-10cm Kingspan and doesn't need heating separately... My actual usage is 1/4 of the estimates I got based on the previous owner...who had the heating on 24x7 in winter and kw's of bulbs just in the kitchen .. they didn't even have a thermostat fitted ...
I was lucky in some ways as my enforced poverty did allow me to invest in things like Kingspan or LED lighting ... and specifically on LED lighting I was able to make an investment (in the rented house before my own) and when we moved I took all the ligthbulbs and put back the 12v halogens.. but I could invest and then get the money bcd over the year... HOWEVER the price of LED's has plummeted since then... it's now a much shorter ROI so that the poorest can take advantage.
Major house changes are on hold at the moment... when I stop spending on bikes and save enough I plan to do a major renovation and upstairs extension.... that will [u]completely[/u] change the wiring and plumbing but I'm in Woking if that's your area.
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Molgrips, IGM has nailed it..(appliances) .. and I've been trying really hard not to mention the B word .... (which for the record I'm vehemently against)
Steve - seriously, PM me. I look after innovation these days and DC homes are interesting. There may be something of mutual interest, there may not. But shall we try?
You may be un-surprised but I'm in innovation as well 😀
I recently did a innovation day for a big utilities company (though water not power) but I'm more usually at the other end of energy (and must do some rather than posting)... the innovation presentation I did was way more about HOW to innovate than the specifics ... and specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of.
I'm still not clear what the benefits of this proposal are steve - can you explain it in a couple of lines?
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Actually this may be the next minor project but in the bike shed and kids playhouse rather than house.
specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of
Steve - agreed. Technology is the easy bit.
Then you are into finance & economies, existing legislation & regulation, social acceptance, roll-out practically (i.e. starting from here how do I get there?)...
And the fact that it works at a small scale doesn't mean it will at a large scale
Just as an update to last weeks usage, the Tesla PW2 app provides this data.
August 9th to August 15th
Home usage = 113 kWh
Solar generation = 100.4 kWh
To the battery = 59.6 kWh
Used from the battery = 43.9 kWh
Used from the grid = 29.8 kWh
Don't forget that we have an EV car, so our energy consumption is probably higher than most people's , we also only charge at home unless going to Cardiff etc.
Quite an initial outlay in terms of the cost of the panels and the newly installed battery.
This is partially offset by us receiving around £800 a year in tax free feed in tariff .
My simple maths tell me this, but this is based on good solar generation figures
Would have bought 113 kWh from the grid = 113 x 0.12 = £13.56
Actually bought , 29.8 kWh = 29.8 x 0.12 = £3.57
Actual paid for electricity = £9.99
But if you cost in the annual feed in tariff , as a weekly amount, then you get £800 a year / 52 weeks = £15.38 per week.
So forgetting the outlay, we are actually about £5 in credit, and running the car for free.
D99 how many panels do you have?
Are all panels the same, if not is one quality panel better than 2 rubbish ones?
nd specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of.
Ah, this old chestnut. Accusing people who find problems in your ideas with having the wrong 'mindset'. Better than actually addressing their points, and also denigrating them at the same time.
For what it's worth, I considered this concept many years ago, but then thought it wouldn't be worth anyone's time and effort. Power supplies are very efficient these days (ever notice how a charger for an old Nokia was pretty heavy, and a modern one is no bigger than the three pin plug it needs and weighs hardly anything? They aren't transformers any more) and also very cheap. I can't see that there's going to be much of an advantage. It would be better to do what now seems to be catching on which is putting USB sockets or similar in power sockets.
The low voltage solar idea though - that would be decent. All your low voltage devices powered from a small solar installation, with a cheap lead acid battery. But how much power would that really save?
A Samsung S7 has a 3.6Ah battery. Say there are 60m phones in the country (accounting for folk who use two), that would mean 780MWh to charge everyone's phones overnight. Given it takes say three hours to charge a phone that would be 250MW or what, 1/6-1/8 of a power station's worth.
Something like what, 25m households in the UK? Let's say the solar charging setup could be sorted for ooh, £500 all in. That would cost £12.5bn installation and zero running costs. How much does a power station cost to build and run?
So forgetting the outlay, we are actually about £5 in credit, and running the car for free.
Also - how many miles did you drive in the EV?
4kw worth of panels, 16 in total.
This is a Solar Edge system , it isn't dependant on the worst performing panel, they contribute individual performance outputs.They are all about the same with no drop off in performance.
You can monitor each panel individually via the web to see if there is a problem.
performed without a hitch for nearly five years.
Worth buying the solar edge system in my opinion.
We used 350 kwh in january and 175kwh in July.
We have a big east facing roof and a snaller southfacing one.
How feasible is it to be electric self sufficient?
30m metered premises in GB Moly - but that includes I&C - so about 27-28m. 25m close enough.
DC homes are expensive (say £2-3k per property) but allow other things to be done
Doubling the LV voltage by changing transformers perhaps (cables are 600/1000V not 230/400V anyway - though neutral displacement for earth faults would need consideration)
That might be a cheap option in time - given we might need more capacity for EVs etc (even with home generation and storage - though I note the figures above).
Potentially better resilience to faults, voltage control, power factor control, losses reduction.
It is worth considering at a whole house level.
Individual appliances? Not sure, but not willing to dismiss yet.
Zippyk - very. Maybe.
Not too bad in electrical energy terms, more difficult in electrical power terms.
More difficult if you want an EV or two and electric heat.
Molgrips
Getting better mileage this time of year at the moment.
5 miles per kWh, will drop in the colder weather to somewhere around 4 or 3.5 as the heater will be on etc.
Don't keep an accurate tally of mileage driven, so would estimate about 150 miles that week maximum, at least 100 miles though.
DC homes are expensive (say £2-3k per property) but allow other things to be done
Why expensive, and what else does it allow to be done?
I'm just imagining a camper van type system, with cables run through the house to a few charging locations, for low voltage stuff. Independent of mains supply.
@Denis - 100 miles a week is a reasonable amount - at least a tank of fuel a month at that rate, so £50/mo.
Moly - full 15-18kW DC supply to the home home to get to that cost. You need that to get some of the benefits.
Agreed that you could do other things - but you can't boost the mains voltage to increase capacity without going down that route.
PS - cost also varies with how long you want kit that runs constantly to last - 5, 10 years? If you want 25 the price will rise.
Yes, we were spending about £50 to £60 a month on diesel when we had the Skoda.
Driving habits and usage hasn't changed that much, so something like £50 a month that we were spending is now being provided by the panels and battery, will drop off in the worst four months of the winter, but for eight months of the year will pretty much cover the motoring costs.
Ah, this old chestnut. Accusing people who find problems in your ideas with having the wrong 'mindset'. Better than actually addressing their points, and also denigrating them at the same time.
You don't NEED to address point if it works...
Specifically though the point is engineers spend a lot of time doing exactly that .. it's their job and that's fine... My last 3 projects have all been met overwhelmingly with "it's not possible" or "we've been trying to do that for 3 decades" .. with only a very small contingent of people like IGM supporting the project at the beginning.
The last 2 year one just successfully completed .. but to start with 90% of the engineers were negative and the CTO told them to co-operate... and if it came to nothing then fine.
Throughout the project we then did address points but incrementally as needed and the engineers all incrementally got onboard. By the final review the BIGGEST supporters were the originally pessimistic engineers.
For what it's worth, I considered this concept many years ago,
Thats pretty much what most of the engineers said!
but then thought it wouldn't be worth anyone's time and effort. Power supplies are very efficient these days (ever notice how a charger for an old Nokia was pretty heavy, and a modern one is no bigger than the three pin plug it needs and weighs hardly anything? They aren't transformers any more) and also very cheap. I can't see that there's going to be much of an advantage. It would be better to do what now seems to be catching on which is putting USB sockets or similar in power sockets.The low voltage solar idea though - that would be decent. All your low voltage devices powered from a small solar installation, with a cheap lead acid battery. But how much power would that really save?
You're still missing the point.... which is to separate the "must work" from the "can have downtime"
If I am up in the dark its very highly preferable my lights work... I often work at night so my computer "needs" to work... and the food in the freezer will spoil if its off too long... and my CH pump works.
However, if I'm working at night and the kettle doesn't work I can boil water on the gas... or in my system draw from a battery.. (indeed I can walk down to the bike shed and use the travel kettle if I must)
A large proportion of our bill is due to electricity being available within specifications 99.9999% of the time. Hence over capacity in both the grid and generation.
A Samsung S7 has a 3.6Ah battery. Say there are 60m phones in the country (accounting for folk who use two), that would mean 780MWh to charge everyone's phones overnight. Given it takes say three hours to charge a phone that would be 250MW or what, 1/6-1/8 of a power station's worth.Something like what, 25m households in the UK? Let's say the solar charging setup could be sorted for ooh, £500 all in. That would cost £12.5bn installation and zero running costs. How much does a power station cost to build and run?
Ask the French and Chinese.... how much a power station is...
But again this is simply about reducing that can't fail side and thus reducing required capacity.
In order to make sure you can plug your samsung in to charge (which lets say is a necessity) then you and several million also get the ability to turn on your kettle at 2AM and do the ironing because the F1 in in another timezone.
Now don't get me wrong.. its nice and convenient but how much is it worth in cost???
Just a theoretical percentage (as this will change according to the type of generation etc.) but lets say you got told you could buy electricity for 50% of the cost BUT in [u]may[/u] be unavailable for 1 hour a night any time between 2am and 4am....
This really isn't different to server requirements ... when a client wants guaranteed 24x7x365 they pay through the nose. If they accept an hours non-availability over a month its a fraction of the price.
Or on my last project trial the client wanted me on call 24x7 for 3 weeks... they paid through the nose and I was the only one in the office at weekends except for 1-2 hours ... and had zero calls after midnight...and paid for a hotel for 3 weeks (though the cost of the mar riot was pretty minor compared to my cost)
On the latest trial they just said "work from home as we are moving office" they actually got a better service and reporting at a faction (20%) of the cost.
Their whole perception of what they needed 24x7 was just skewed... I had set up automatic monitoring that called my mobile ... should it be needed there was simply no need to physically check a screen every hour. It was also much more pleasant for me!
Why expensive, and what else does it allow to be done?I'm just imagining a camper van type system, with cables run through the house to a few charging locations, for low voltage stuff. Independent of mains supply.
Yes.... except campers CAN have fridges and kettles and lighting...
Of course then your camper needs to recharge the battery .... which in its case is plug-in or run the engine...
I'm simply changing the engine part to solar if you view it that way.
except campers CAN have fridges and kettles and lighting...
Yes but not on battery power. Even the small old type fridges draw 8A, modern ones much more. And you can keep naff all in one. So your battery would last about a day. It's prohibitive for camping, possibly not for a house. But that's only a dinky little absorbtion fridge which would be crap for home use.
Similarly our little two cup kettle draws 900W, which would drain the battery in 26 two-cup boils or about a day and a half if you're my parents.
A 110Ah leisure battery can be had for less than £100, so you could easily buy three or four. So you could probably use one for your kettle. IIRC people boiling kettles at the same time is a significant issue for the national grid - so perhaps this would help?
Their whole perception of what they needed 24x7 was just skewed
Indeed, and that's why I am in favour of state intervention.
By the final review the BIGGEST supporters were the originally pessimistic engineers.
Pessimism is an emotion, and there's no place for emotions in engineering. What there is however a place for is a thorough exploration of the pros and cons of an idea and their relative merits. It seems like engineers are the kind of people who can get attached to a technical idea and couple emotion to it. It's this 'mindset' that needs challenging. Not every idea is a good one - that goes for you as well as your engineers Steve!
I still want to know what problem this low voltage DC house main is solving. Is it overall mains usage? Smoothing supply? Making solar installation cheaper and simpler?
steve - where to start. You've clearly thought about this, but there really are swings and roundabouts here.
Yes the redundancy required to keep people on during faults costs money (it's mainly about faults).
But the diversity of connecting a load of different folk to the same source saves money - effectively you get to use the capacity that was installed for your neighbour.
electricity for 50% of the cost BUT in may be unavailable for 1 hour a night any time between 2am and 4am....
There already is less electricity available overnight. There's also less available in the summer.
The cost is really tied up in the peak which is the third Thursday in December at 1800 (roughly). System peak is generally dominated by domestic load at a time when PV is not available - lots of storage maybe?
Asking people to switch off at they get food ready, go Christmas shopping, go out for the works do etc is a little more difficult than at 0200 in July.
There will be changes to the system (interestingly a lack of electricity at 0200 may be one of them - but a lack at that system peak is also one) but they aren't necessarily simple - if they were I'd be out of a job of course.
Yes but not on battery power. Even the small old type fridges draw 8A, modern ones much more. And you can keep naff all in one. So your battery would last about a day. It's prohibitive for camping, possibly not for a house. But that's only a dinky little absorbtion fridge which would be crap for home use.
Weirdly this is the biggest progress on home fridges (according to the PDF I linked earlier)
Similarly our little two cup kettle draws 900W, which would drain the battery in 26 two-cup boils or about a day and a half if you're my parents.A 110Ah leisure battery can be had for less than £100, so you could easily buy three or four. So you could probably use one for your kettle. IIRC people boiling kettles at the same time is a significant issue for the national grid - so perhaps this would help?
The point here ii only use battery for a kettle in extremis
To take the camper .. when your plugged in at a site... knock yourself out and make 22 cups... but if you don't want to pay for hookup right now then go easy on the kettle or use gas...
(Lets say electrical hookup is £10/d and you arrive at 10PM .... you might decide screw it... I just want one brew before bed and the battery is charged from the drive.... I'll pay from tomorrow)
My suggestion in the house is the kettle isn't required 24x7 ... there is always gas or battery for the odd cup...but usually you'd just use it... [b]only in the case of a blackout would you need to rely on battery/gas...[/b]
it but can be connected all the time but you're getting cheaper electric that might (not will) be unavailable for the odd hour or may not be up to scratch in terms of quality (your brew might take a bit longer).
Your fridge stays plugged in ... it is just if the blackout/brownout occurs it gets switched over to battery so nothing is ruined.
The main thing is that stuff like lights and your CH pump are essentially running on a UPS... its just the iron/kettle that may not be available if you don't have enough battery stored up.
Indeed, and that's why I am in favour of state intervention.
Unfortunately since the 70's successive governments have shied away... no-one wants to be the one where the lights go off. Back in the 70's lights were 100W incandescent jobbies not 4w LED's though and fridges used a lot more power and battery technology was not where it is today.
What's changed is that the near necessities for most people are low power necessities.(a 100W lightbulb so granny can do to the loo in the night isn't needed).. we don't need to fire up a CRT for a TV or computer... keeping he lights on (literally) meant Kw/house... and domestic power was a fraction of industrial anyway... however very little has changed in the way people think about "keeping the lights on"....