MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The wife had a work car that runs on battery, so thinking this might be worthwhile.
I heard there had been recent changes after solar had gone out of favour.
Tesla keeps sending me emails about the Powerwall + solar panels. TBH if we had the cash I'd consider it especially as we're rural and seem to be the first knocked out, and last restored whenever there is a storm + power cut. The ability to store energy until it's needed is the big plus (our alternative is a standby generator which most of our neighbours have done / are doing).
I didn't think the Tesla system worked if the power went out... these things normally need external power to synchronise with, even if you're not importing any.
Systems like this are getting cheaper and more common; even ikea do them now! If we planned to stay in our current house long term I'd probably have done it already.
Right now I don't think it adds up if you're just thinking financially - eight grand or whatever will buy you an awful lot of power - but the extra sustainability, wanting to encourage things moving in that direction and a bit of geekery makes it up for me.
interesting read...
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/aug/12/edf-free-solar-panels-buy-power-generated-20-years
We have had solar panels for the last five years, so benefit from the better feed in tariff that is sadly no longer available.
Bought a Nissan Leaf EV car last December, having wanted a EV car for both green issues and also much nicer to drive, albeit that it's not for everyone with the range being limited , but it suits our driving requirements and won't go back to an ICE again.
Just had a Tesla Powerwall 2 battery installed.
Having the solar panels and EV car it makes a lot of sense to store the energy from the panels and use it for charging the car for free. Ok, the Tesla PW2 isn't cheap at 6K, but looking at it as a longer term expenditure to reduce energy costs, and being an EV car owner it just seems daft to export the solar energy to the grid.
Haven't had the PW2 long enough yet, but buying from the grid has gone down dramatically.
We have had solar panels for the last five years, so benefit from the better feed in tariff that is sadly no longer available.
As one of the consumers paying for the feed in tariffs through my bills I don't find the reduced subsidies sad at all. Solar isn't a new technology. It should now stand or fall on it's merits not through subsidies from other consumers.
[i]It should now stand or fall on it's merits not through subsidies from other consumers.[/i]
Indeed...
Just a few more details about the PW2.
It has the ability to import electricity from the grid to the battery. There are a few suppliers which are beginning to offer off peak rate energy for as little as 6kw overnight.
So it could be possible to buy your energy overnight when demand is low, and then use the energy through the day.
Needs a little careful planning, but if you are out of the house from 8 till 6 at work, then the home would consume roughly 0.5 kw per hour.
The battery can store 14kw, if you don't have an exceptionally high usage then this could work for some, even without the solar.
Think this option for importing will be made available soon.
Something will have to be done in this respect though. As the take up of EV cars increase, home charging is the cheapest and most logical method of recharging.
So off peak charging at a lower energy cost makes sense for the individual and the National Grid.
Not quite.
Because generation it moving towards PV charging over night (the traditional off peak time) probably won't make sense soon. Check out the National Grid demand curve for 24-25 March and the analysis that was done.
Before you think about anything with renewables or storage you need to drive down your energy consumption first. Spend your money on insulation and airtightness first, then think about grid-tied renewables. Batteries don't make sense for the vast majority of consumers.
I will do it on political grounds.
This government should be doing all it can to make us as energy self sufficient as possible.
They aren't , so it's hypocritical for me to sit back and moan about it when I can take matters into my own hands. I would also like to be able to store my own energy in case of any future black outs.
That UK energy usage website that someone on here posted really opened my eyes to how much solar we already produce.
Has anyone ever looked a CV springs, like the wind-up radio, but far larger obvs..
As one of the consumers paying for the feed in tariffs through my bills I don't find the reduced subsidies sad at all. Solar isn't a new technology. It should now stand or fall on it's merits not through subsidies from other consumers.
All depends on whether you want to breathe clean air and drink clean water or not....
Air and water perfectly clean here bar a few inner city hotspots. Solar won,t reduce diesel fumes from buses. etc.
How much power will solar give at 6pm in January?
How much power will solar give at 6pm in January?
Assuming you store excess in a Power wall or equiv, you can use up the average of 20 kWh/m2 in January that you generated during daylight hours...
Solar isn't a new technology. It should now stand or fall on it's merits not through subsidies from other consumers
No it shouldn't.
We need sustainable energy. That needs to be subsidised. Governments cannot let the world go to shit by sitting back and doing bugger all whilst money does all the talking.
This is very important.
irc conveniently ignoring Kit's post re: fossil subsidies? 😉
We're not in a position to throw money at it yet, but I'm hoping the savings on petrol/diesel will look favourable once we can afford to replace our Diesel CRV with a wee electric run-around. Our commute is short but congested, getting a bit of a conscience about the car's emissions 😳
Funnily enough we have a Tesla rep coming around to ours next month for the Powerwall and Solar Roof. They seem to be second to none and i was under the impression that they do power the home in the event of an outage......but we'll see!
I'd be interested if you have any alternatives to recommend or experiences....
I like the sound of all this, but we're contemplating moving house in the next couple of years so will hold fire until then.
[quote=molgrips ]We need sustainable energy. That needs to be subsidised. Governments cannot let the world go to shit by sitting back and doing bugger all whilst money does all the talking.
We need sensible sustainable energy and subsidies for schemes which make sense. The previous solar subsidies appeared to encourage installations which weren't sensible - our local village hall has solar panels on a North facing roof FFS (the angle is shallow, but even so)! I must remember to take a pic demonstrating the insolation at midday in winter this year...
It would be interesting to see some payback calls for various home demands.
I'm going to start logging our electric use closely, so I've got facts.
Before you think about anything with renewables or storage you need to drive down your energy consumption first. Spend your money on insulation and airtightness first, then think about grid-tied renewables. Batteries don't make sense for the vast majority of consumers.
No, you should do whatever works out the most cost effective, or at least of the most benefit to you (including the sense of smug self satisfaction in saving the planet).
If you made a lot of homes airtight you'd end up with a horrible damp smelly place that made everyone ill. It's not a problem that can always be solved with a bit of ductape over an airbrick. Yes insulation is a usually a good thing, but people still have to live in these places.
The advantage of renewables and batteries at a household level is that the household is paying the upfront cost. If you stood up in parliament and said "every household is going to pay £600 extra in tax every year for 12 years to pay for a massive solar farm in Kent" a) Kent would be very unhappy, and b) everyone being asked to chip in £600 would be very unhappy. You could build a huge battery and bury it under Bury, but you'd have the same problem (possibly with marginally less objections than Kent).
To illustrate the point, just look at the political hot potato that is Hinkley C!
You could build a huge battery and bury it under Bury
Heat dissipation during charging might be interesting.
😉
Wouldn't the old gasometer sites make a great location for the huge batteries
Wouldn't the old gasometer sites make a great location for the huge batteries
If only they hadn't built flats all over them...
No, you should do whatever works out the most cost effective, or at least of the most benefit to you (including the sense of smug self satisfaction in saving the planet).
Yep. If all your heating is from renewables then it doesn't really matter if your house is insulated or not (from a carbon footprint point of view).
Yep. If all your heating is from renewables then it doesn't really matter if your house is insulated or not (from a carbon footprint point of view).
It does, because renewables are still limited in supply even though they are renewable.
Yes - FIT systems will cut out if the grid is off, as they don't want the grid live while they are fixing it. If you want to run PV as a standby you'd need a standalone inverter; you could have a FIT inverter and a standalone one with a full changeover switch but it would be a couple of £k to buy and fit.I didn't think the Tesla system worked if the power went out... these things normally need external power to synchronise with, even if you're not importing any.
[quote="irc"]As one of the consumers paying for the feed in tariffs through my bills I don't find the reduced subsidies sad at all. Solar isn't a new technology. It should now stand or fall on it's merits not through subsidies from other consumers.
You/I are subsidising far more due to requirements for energy security.
The requirement to provide uptime's is a major part of your bill that is legislated in.
By that I mean you can go and turn on the light and it will come on 99.999% of the time but this is simply wasteful (and expensive)
Most new lighting is now 12v DC and you could poet a houseful of LED's on a car battery for days...
Equally your TV/computer etc. all run on DC.... the first thing that happens inside them is a transformer and DC converter... however regulations are all based around supplying 230VAC which simply isn't needed and not even desirable for most appliances.
The main things however don't need 24x7x365 .... I rarely get up at 3AM to iron for example.
Classic examples are washing machines or dishwashers. These are only available with electric water heating but the motor COULD be DC... and as most wash cycles are lower temp the water could easily be PV heated.. my water pump on my gas powered central heating could be DC...
My point is that if MOST of these were available in a 12VDC/24VDC for the same price (in theory they should be cheaper but lets go same price) then having self sufficient solar and other energy forms becomes realistic.
[quote="molgrips"] We need sustainable energy. That needs to be subsidised. Governments cannot let the world go to shit by sitting back and doing bugger all whilst money does all the talking.
There are many forms of sustainable energy and many of the pro-sustainable energy fans are against other forms whilst your average Joe just wants to be able to flick a switch as cheaply as possible.
The main thing in the way of a middle ground I see is reliance and deliberate tie-in/dependence to main electricity. Given the appliances were available I'd be happy with 1-2 hours a month no electricity in the middle of the night... or a different model just tap into main electricity when needed... which if you have GCH is probably not that much.
supplying 230VAC which simply isn't needed
We transmit high voltage AC because it's much more efficient to do so than low voltage DC.
We [b]transmit [/b]high voltage [s]AC [/s]because it's much more efficient to do so than low voltage[s] DC[/s].
But DC use has its attractions.
As for self supply, clearly doable technically, financially it might work, but the question is (bizarrely enough) can you do it sustainably. As kit wears out (and it does) you are going to need to have maintenance and replacement plans in place for what is a fairly vital and expense bit of your life.
A hybrid solution might be a better bet - i.e. Home and grid, sometimes referred to as the fractal balancing view.
PS - I work for a power company (not an energy company).
Yes - they use high voltage DC for the grid backbone, don't they - to reduce induction related losses? The reason most of it's AC though is to allow it to be stepped up and down easily to achieve high voltage transmission.
Correct - though it frequently to decouple large systems, because as line lengths become appreciable fractions of 50hz wavelengths you get some interesting transmission line effects - not my area of expertise.
Transformers work better with AC. However there are some interesting power electronics developments that might change that.
Yes - they use high voltage DC for the grid backbone, don't they - to reduce induction related losses? The reason most of it's AC though is to allow it to be stepped up and down easily to achieve high voltage transmission.
But that doesn't mean it needs to be delivered as high voltage AC... or most importantly consumed as "high voltage" (230v) AC.
In effect we the consumers are being forced to consume according to how "they" wish to supply and our appliances are regulated to keep this.
You can'y buy a washing machine with hot water input anymore so even if you have a limitless supply in summer through say PV or in winter from a back boiler you still have to heat the water through electricity derived from main supply.
On the other hand every lightbulb in my house has a step-down and inverter (which 90% of the time is what fails) .. the whole lot would run on a car battery for days on clean DC. I have probably several hundred transformers in the house because nearly everything electronic works off 12/5 VDC but most of those have internal transformers and no option to supply clean DC.
Cost and efficiency wise I'm not given the alternative of cheaper mains electricity with a lower uptime and some brown-outs because companies are not allowed to offer it.
So in effect we "the consumer" are being dictated to on how we consume and it isn't to our advantage.
With the exception of a few electrical items (electric showers kettle,iron etc.) nearly everything is more efficient for the consumer supplied as DC.
The only things I really care about (not even need) being available 24x7 are all DC.
Even my gas stove "requires" mains electricity.... as does the thermostat on my GCH...
But that doesn't mean it needs to be delivered as high voltage AC... or most importantly consumed as "high voltage" (230v) AC.
So you're saying one large transformer in the house instead of lots of small ones?
Seems a fairly pointless change to me. Even around the house you'd lose a lot of power. And then look at the variety of voltages your stuff runs on.
You could easily do this yourself though if you care. Put 12V and 5V supply in the walls, see how warm it gets when you run loads of devices from it.
Thing is though your small electronic devices now use hardly any power, and their PSUs are very efficient - so this is absolutely trifling compared to your fridge, cooker and washing machine and even your kettle.
Transformers work [s]better[/s] with AC
stevextc is probably wrong today but may we'll be right in a few years - 15-18kW AC-DC supplies mounted at every house will become practical at some point.
We're looking at it, and the DC home is quite interesting in terms of making power companies' lives easier.
But it ain't cheap - fag packet calculations suggest it might double the cost of the distribution grid to the customer.
irc conveniently ignoring Kit's post re: fossil subsidies?
Does the UK have fossil fuel subsidies?The UK defines fossil fuel subsidies as government action that “lowers the pretax price to consumers to below international market levels”.
Since a reduction in the usual rate of tax paid in a certain sector (such as North Sea oil and gas) doesn’t fit into this definition, the government says this isn’t subsidy.
Therefore, despite multiple reports highlighting how the UK gives frequent financial support to prop up its oil and gas industries, the government argues it is simply lowering the sector’s already higher-than-usual rate of tax and has no fossil fuel subsidies.
https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-the-challenge-of-defining-fossil-fuel-subsidies
Edit: ignore, hadn't read carbonbrief link
So you're saying one large transformer in the house instead of lots of small ones?
Yes which is simply the opposite of the inverters used with Tesla batteries etc.
Seems a fairly pointless change to me. Even around the house you'd lose a lot of power. And then look at the variety of voltages your stuff runs on.
Nearly all of it is 5v or 12v....
You could easily do this yourself though if you care. Put 12V and 5V supply in the walls, see how warm it gets when you run loads of devices from it.
I'm already doing that.... based on the number of different chargers and transformers all round the house. Every light has one, every TV, the blue ray actually has an external 12v one...
However that's missing the point.... What I'm suggesting is instead to use local solar at 12/24 VDC and do away with the transformers altogether for .....
Thing is though your small electronic devices now use hardly any power, and their PSUs are very efficient - so this is absolutely trifling compared to your fridge, cooker and washing machine and even your kettle.
Yep, that my point.... [u]nearly [/u]all the stuff I want powered permanantly takes almost nothing... so little I could run it in winter off solar powering/charging a battery.... my cooker takes even less, it only needs power to power the clock and lighter... (you could even power the lighter with a large capacitor that just charges from static)
Fridge is marginal.... and the power for the washing machine goes mainly into heating water not the motor... if the washing machine could take hot water input the power requirements would be much less.
The GCH has a pump but again not huge power demands compared to a kettle or electric shower..
So my point is to cut out the transformers altogether except as an over-ride when you don't have sufficient battery power.
When I plug in the kettle or use the electric shower then I can just go straight to mains power but I'm willing to accept much much lower energy security on that (as low as 99.9%).. if I have heating/lighting and some form of entertainment and way to work I can accept the iron may not be available or might not get as hot as quickly in a brownout at 2am...
stevextc is probably wrong today but may we'll be right in a few years - 15-18kW AC-DC supplies mounted at every house will become practical at some point.
We're looking at it, and the DC home is quite interesting in terms of making power companies' lives easier.
But it ain't cheap - fag packet calculations suggest it might double the cost of the distribution grid to the customer.
This is the problem... I don't want or need DC [b]delivered[/b] but obviously the energy companies who drive legislation want to deliver so they can charge me.
It's not about making the power companies lives easier except it is because they control legislation indirectly.
What I want is to be able to run completely free of the grid most of the time. Only using the grid for infrequent activities or top up charging of a battery.
I'll take care of the "lights coming on" .. I just want (living in the UK as we do) some top-up... and to run a few items like irons and kettles infrequently
What I'd like to see as a consumer is lower availability of AC but cheaper whilst being able to buy a boiler with a DC motor and TV with clean 12V input (that isn't designed for a caravan).
My fag packet says I could happily run the "highly desirable 24x7 stuff" like lights from energy collected from solar.(including water heating to a temperature usable for washing clothes/people).. and maybe some days in winter this would need supplementing if I open the fridge/freezer lot or want to shower and do the washing at the same time.
The lack of option here is buying the devices in the first place... as seen demonstrated by home solar's requiring a voltage inverter that then converts to 230VAC that then gets converted back to 12/5VDC
OK, just skim read the Carbonbrief article, but this leapt out at me:
"For instance, chancellor Philip Hammond recently announced new [b]help[/b] for the North Sea oil and gas industry, also highlighting the “[b]unprecedented support already provided to the oil and gas sector through £2.3bn packages in the last three years[/b]”.
A recent Carbon Brief analysis found the UK’s North Sea oil and gas sector actually became a [b]net drain[/b] on public finances in 2016, with the sector receiving an overall [b]£396m[/b] in 2016, even when tax payments were taken into account. Another investigation released by Greenpeace and Private Eye in April found the UK had pledged [b]£4.8bn in financial support[/b] to fossil fuel firms since 2010 through UK Export Finance, the government agency that supports risky export deals to boost international trade by providing guarantees, insurance and reinsurance against loss."
And that's fossil fuels standing up by themselves is it? How cost effective would local solar/batteries look if they received £4.8bn in [s]subsidies[/s] I mean [i]support[/i]?
SteveXTC - don't confuse power companies who sell you (or technically your supplier) a connection with energy companies who sell electricity (your supplier being one of the latter).
In essence as soon as you have a connection there is what is pretty much a flat fee to be paid to the power company - who pays it and how it is charged makes this a little difficult to relate directly to your bill, but it is not related very much to the quantity of electricity you use, merely the fact that you have that facility available. And that cost has fallen by 30% over the last 25 years.
So generating your own electricity, being mainly self sufficient and only using our network for top ups would definitely make our lives easier.
The energy companies less so.
And you would need to rewire your house - possibly for both AC and DC if what I understood of what you want to do was correct - alternatively you could have that AC-DC conversion at the door but that will be expensive.
Finally we deliver electricity at the voltage and frequency we do because of legislation - we don't control that legislation. In fact I think weight of having millions of 230V 50hz appliances and gadgets dominates that discussion - but that may change.
OK, just skim read the Carbonbrief article, but this leapt out at me:"For instance, chancellor Philip Hammond recently announced new help for the North Sea oil and gas industry, also highlighting the “unprecedented support already provided to the oil and gas sector through £2.3bn packages in the last three years”.
A recent Carbon Brief analysis found the UK’s North Sea oil and gas sector actually became a net drain on public finances in 2016, with the sector receiving an overall £396m in 2016, even when tax payments were taken into account. Another investigation released by Greenpeace and Private Eye in April found the UK had pledged £4.8bn in financial support to fossil fuel firms since 2010 through UK Export Finance, the government agency that supports risky export deals to boost international trade by providing guarantees, insurance and reinsurance against loss."
And that's fossil fuels standing up by themselves is it? How cost effective would local solar/batteries look if they received £4.8bn in subsidies I mean support?
IIRC those figures are quite heavily massaged and misleading.
They don't for example take into account tax paid on the road fuel, and does include government contributions to apprenticeships.
Hang on - surely tax paid on road fuel would be the same wherever the oil comes from?
so little I could run it in winter off solar powering/charging a battery
This would be pretty easy to set up. Few hundred quid's worth of solar, a leisure battery and chase some wires through your walls. Put two leisure batteries in series and you'd be able to run your laptop.
But it's a lot of effort to save a small percentage of your total usage, that's what I'm saying.
[quote=molgrips ]But it's a lot of effort to save a small percentage of your total usage, that's what I'm saying.
I think steve's point though isn't to reduce the total usage, but to reduce (or even eliminate) the requirement for energy security, which certainly is something which is a big driver with our current electricity supplies. I'm not sure his suggestions are necessarily that practical though, because along with the requirement to convert all households to eliminate that need, there are also non-domestic requirements for energy security which may be harder to fix.
I think steve's point though isn't to reduce the total usage, but to reduce (or even eliminate) the requirement for energy security
I don't think they are talking about being able to charge your phone when they talk about energy security. More like keeping factories, data centres, communication networks running, that kind of thing.
Hang on - surely tax paid on road fuel would be the same wherever the oil comes from?
Yes, but that's hypothetical.
Small fractions of biofuel aside, transport fuel mostly comes from oil.
The system works something like this:
Government owns the oil, and grants licences to extract it. The companies pay a tax on the amount they get out of the ground. Sometimes the oil price crashes and the government cut's this tax because it's oil is now worth less but still costs just as much to get out of the ground and it doesn't want the industry to stop completely (because other governments also have oil, often cheaper or easier to extract). Greenpeace jumps on this tax decreace as a 'subsidy'.
The oil companies then pay corporation tax etc on their profits.
And the consumer then pays more tax again on the price of the fuel at the pump.
[u]
And another thing............[/u]
Anyone with a memory longer than a goldfish knows what happens when other countries dick around with oil and gas supplies. Suez crisis, Gulf War, Russia Vs Ukraine. Even if the energy industry as a whole (both renewables and fossil) was propped up, is that a bad thing? Energy security is important, and in the short term at least this means making sure we have diesel. Subsidising renewables as far as possible is obviously preferable, but if trucks are likely to run on diesel for the next 20 years, then you need to have a plan for where that diesel is coming from in addition to how your powering homes and lighter vehicles.
Finally we deliver electricity at the voltage and frequency we do because of legislation - we don't control that legislation. In fact I think weight of having millions of 230V 50hz appliances and gadgets dominates that discussion - but that may change.
Yep ... though the way legislation is controlled is somewhat circular.
Frankly who'd want to be a supplier ... unless it had some sweeteners.
Prior to the ongoing energy crash <500 of Centrica Groups employees made about 200% of the profit for several years. If it wasn't for E&P and Trading British Gas and others would have run a loss ... and when the price drops the ones making the loss are then expected to cut their prices ... and if they do make a profit somehow they get hit with windfall taxes!
[quote=aracer]I think steve's point though isn't to reduce the total usage, but to reduce (or even eliminate) the requirement for energy security, which certainly is something which is a big driver with our current electricity supplies. I'm not sure his suggestions are necessarily that practical though, because along with the requirement to convert all households to eliminate that need, there are also non-domestic requirements for energy security which may be harder to fix.
Yes ....
Partly as said by Molgrips...
I don't think they are talking about being able to charge your phone when they talk about energy security. More like keeping factories, data centres, communication networks running, that kind of thing.
Data centres and networks could run fairly independently ... factories and especially heavy industry perhaps not....but that isn't my problem as a consumer...I'm not dismissing that requirement ... but saying it's a different requirement to domestic supply with very different requirements.
Based on this on page 7 you can see the shift in domestic to industrial usage (in ktoe) and domestic has clearly increased and industrial has decreased... from 1982 or thereabouts domestic overtook industrial and now is roughly twice as big. I'm not in the minority user/sector anymore but the majority.
(if you look through you can also see how cold appliances and wet appliances have become more efficient)
The point I'm making is I don't NEED 24x7 ... I'm not a foundry, I'm a house ... my needs are not the needs of heavy industry so why are the rules and legislation still set for heavy industry?
as igm say's they deliver according to legislation .... but why is that legislation the same??? It's not the same for more or less anything else...
I'm not sure his suggestions are necessarily that practical though, because along with the requirement to convert all households to eliminate that need
It's not that hard to convert the households ... all you need is the appliances
e.g. buy a TV/computer and legislation can say it must have a 12V in .... (as well) then as uptake comes on they an phase out the 230v AC. LED lighting cane made WITHOUT a transformer (half my kitchen lighting already runs off a single tiny 12v transformer)
No-one needs to be forced to use the 12V .. just given the option....
i.e. I personally would start off with lighting until I need a new TV/computer etc. then swap that for the DC capable one... etc.
The other half holding this back is the suppliers are not allowed to offer cheaper (less uptime) electricity ... you can't pick a tariff for "99.9%" uptime because they are not allowed to offer them. You pay for the ability to do our ironing and use an electric kettle at 2am whether you want it or not....
In reality legislation permitting this isn't anywhere near as difficult a changeover as coal gas to natural gas....
The other half holding this back is the suppliers are not allowed to offer cheaper (less uptime) electricity
This is happening with industrial customers now, many of whom are happy with say 99% availability.
It will come to domestic customers in due course.
Google demand side response.
Of course it used to exist as economy 7.
It's unlikely you will be encouraged to do load heavy activities overnight in future as the generation will be daytime focused.
So why won't domestic self sufficiency make sense?
Well in order to service around 6GW of domestic load (served by my company), we need around 70GW of domestic connections - but diversity means they never all run together so you only need 6GW further up stream.
Allow a bit for security (even 100% redundancy) and you only need 12GW of network in our area and our generation requirement from NGC and embedded is lower than that.
Conversely to do it self sufficiently you need 70GW of generation and storage.
And that is before you consider industrial and commercial.
Because there is decent diversity between them and domestic load, they have an effect on peak demand but it's not huge.
Go for the domestic self sufficiency route and you need to build a whole load more capacity for industry.
So you don't do it because over all it's blinking expensive. And it particularly hits the most vulnerable in society.
There is an argument about who pays what, and I'm fine with that being discussed, but it is another question.
(PS peer to peer trading is probably a good thing.
PPS I was there when senior ofgem figures said publicly that they wanted to see suppliers gone in five years - was that just for effect...? Who knows)
my needs are not the needs of heavy industry so why are the rules and legislation still set for heavy industry?
Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is. You have 240V single phase because it's one system that works for all your stuff.
Charles Merz
[quote=molgrips ]Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is.
No - it uses 3 phase, which is also available at the end of most residential streets!
So why won't domestic self sufficiency make sense?
Well in order to service around 6GW of domestic load (served by my company), we need around 70GW of domestic connections - but diversity means they never all run together so you only need 6GW further up stream.
Allow a bit for security (even 100% redundancy) and you only need 12GW of network in our area and our generation requirement from NGC and embedded is lower than that.
Conversely to do it self sufficiently you need 70GW of generation and storage.
Actually you don't need 70Gw for self generated because if people have control they can self regulate...
A milliwatt example being say phone charging.... you can use a low battery mode, not use services you don't need .. plug it into a battery or charger etc.
i.e. noone is saying all mobiles need to be capable of peak load 24x7.... so people self manage them.
PPS I was there when senior ofgem figures said publicly that they wanted to see suppliers gone in five years - was that just for effect...? Who knows)
I doubt it ... reason being the suppliers are scapegoats for all governments.
As energy prices rise (usually due to taxation of one form or another) utility companies make convenient scapegoats...
[quote="molgrips"]Heavy industry doesn't use the same 240V supply your hosue does as it is. You have 240V single phase because it's one system that works for all your stuff.
So why have the same regulations .... ?
This is my point. Domestic supply used to piggy back industry (prior to 1980) but since then domestic has kept growing and industry shrinking....
and as ivm points out this is now changing anyway as industry increasingly don't need 3 phase...
Many modern factories could run on the old lighting circuits....
Last time I upgraded a server room (physically) the total consumption AFTER was less than just the air con before... and this was back in the very late 90's ....
So why have the same regulations .... ?
Not sure what you're on about. Factory and domestic electrics have different specifications and rules. Factories run on a different system and have different wiring regs.
Houses have 240VAC because it's convenient and it works for everything and it already exists. Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Steve - you can self regulate, but you still lose diversity, and you'll still need substantially more generation and storage.
At the generation level diversity means you need in the order of 900W per household. Yes I did say 900W and no you can't boil a kettle with that.
But because of diversity that's all you need provided you can group enough houses together.
Now if a self sufficient household wants to boil a kettle electrically you need say 3kW and if you want to run the oven at the same time that might be 4-4.5kW. Or five times as much as you need working together. Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
As for suppliers, there are logical reasons for getting rid of them, but it's not necessarily easy.
Oh yes, just for information, domestic load is also falling and has been for a bit. That's probably going to change if we all get EVs and/or heat pumps.
Yes - FIT systems will cut out if the grid is off, as they don't want the grid live while they are fixing it.
Interestingly I saw [url= http://orison.energy ]this[/url] which can run stuff when the power is out; it sounds a little dubious but basically it detects the loss of power so intentionally trips the RCD, islanding the circuits (not the whole house - it's a battery that basically just plugs into a socket!) it's attached to...
If it works I don't have a problem with that Phiiiiil. (As a senior manager in an electricity distribution company I get to say that sort of thing).
However I'd want to know far more about how it works (not the storage but that's fine, the continuing to power the home after a fault).
And they are remarkably unclear about what it does in a power cut (unless I missed something) which always makes me nervous.
Not sure what you're on about. Factory and domestic electrics have different specifications and rules. Factories run on a different system and have different wiring regs.
In order to SELL power you need to comply with a very very long list of regulations... just like selling credit (which is also one thing utility companies must offer) ... however unlike say banking the regulations are the same for selling domestic power as industrial power.
Historically (pre 80's) this is because domestic power was a small fraction of industrial power... so it made some sense. Since the 80's however the situation is reversed... and due to some of the outages in the 70's winter of discontent successive governments have had a fear of being the one that "let the lights go out" ...
Foundries need to run 24x7 ... you can't just turn them off - they take days to shut down and start-up... air pumps in coal mines need to run 24x7 .. etc. and of course hospitals need "machines that go beep" running 24x7... Of course other than hospitals we don't do these things like smelting and mining any more.
Houses have 240VAC because it's convenient and it works for everything and it already exists. Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Canals are designed to transport goods... the UK spent a fortune making them for about 15-20 years before they got superseded by railways... Today however canals are used mainly for leisure and railways for transporting people... we don't need compulsory horse stabling on canals... etc. it's a concept that is in the past. Railways don't need to transport iron ore... and most cement is trucked.... whereas in the past coal, ore and lime were transported right up the last mile into the factory..
The rail link to Ribble cement is now a nice cycle route... and instead trucks go in and out.
Most CONSUMER items now run low voltage DC ... (overwhelmingly in terms of numbers of items - less so on watts consumed) ... but we as consumers (and the largest sector in the market) are still dictated to by who can sell power to us and how by regulations designed and controlled by industry. (Much of which doesn't need 3 phase either)
The point is we don't [b]need[/b] 24x7 ... and for the items that are very convenient to be available 24x7 they can run off battery power... a dialysis unit MIGHT need some bigger batteries but not EVERYONE needs one at home...
Not even sure what you are suggesting. A 12VDC supply to all houses? What?
Not short term though that's a longer term possibility... we do phone lines already!
First stage I'm suggesting is to legislate for consumer items to REQUIRE a low volt DC input....
This then allows consumers to decide HOW they power this... they legislated on low power lightbulbs...and they introduced digital TV.. I can't see how it would be hard to give a bypass and allow clean DC in on a TV or LED lighting...
[b]As a consumer I can then decide if I use mains delivered power or not on an item by item basis[/b]
Washing machines and dishwashers need a compulsary ability to take arm/hot water ... they used to all do this but it was legislated out. Then you can supply 30-40 degree PV heated water and you just need to run the pumps and motor... This is a major factor in why people don't adopt PV or geothermal water because they are not allowed to use it in wet appliances....
At some time perhaps clean DC could be delivered but that is in the future... well before we get there we need to enable the use of clean DC rather than the messy and inefficient conversion of DC to AC then back to DC as happens on todays solar.
[quote=igm]Steve - you can self regulate, but you still lose diversity, and you'll still need substantially more generation and storage.
At the generation level diversity means you need in the order of 900W per household. Yes I did say 900W and no you can't boil a kettle with that.
But because of diversity that's all you need provided you can group enough houses together.
Now if a self sufficient household wants to boil a kettle electrically you need say 3kW and if you want to run the oven at the same time that might be 4-4.5kW. Or five times as much as you need working together. Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
As for suppliers, there are logical reasons for getting rid of them, but it's not necessarily easy.
Oh yes, just for information, domestic load is also falling and has been for a bit. That's probably going to change if we all get EVs and/or heat pumps.
Your thinking like a Snr manager in a electricity distribution company 😀
My car battery easily boils a kettle.... OK it might take a bit longer (specifically the boiling and SLH) but the point is I don't need to boil a kettle the whole time... my batteries can charge and then I can use the stored energy to meet my peak demands.
Now generation only or generation and storage that's a problem. Particularly if you're still paying for the network so you can run your electric shower on a winter evening/morning.
Or I could use alternatively heated water for a shower.... from gas heated to PV or geothermal... or even using heat exchangers AFTER I turn the oven off.... and combine these so that my PV water then gets kept warmer with the heat exchanger and then when i want a shower it's heated more by gas...
Same with the washing machine... I'm not doing boil washes anymore... 30-40 degrees is good for most stuff... but the main point I'm trying to make is why I don't generate my own energy at the moment... and the overwhelming reason is I'm legislated against using it without an inverter due to the items I can buy.
I can of course also perhaps cooperate with neighbours and swap a charged battery for a cup of sugar....
We currently do that with vegetables for eggs ...
Steve - I can agree with much of what you say, but you need to slow down and check a few things.
Hospitals, for example, generally have on site backup so they don't rely on a "24/7" supply. Even so they generally have a switched firm or auto firm supply (two forms of n-1).
Domestic properties normally have unfirm supplies (n-0) and if off are off for repair time.
A lot of what we are looking at is to improve the level of security for domestic customers as people have become more and more electrically dependent (and that is likely to increase with EVs etc).
Now home storage has a part to play in that, but it is an expensive option.
Fundamentally that is where I disagree with you - it's very expensive. Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.
And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
PS - Steve I actually support what you are trying to do. And it will work for a few.
But we need to make it work for all.
DC inputs to appliances doesn't seem unreasonable. It will add cost to have two inputs, and everyone pays whether they want it or not, but it's not unreasonable really.
Where do you live? Are you in my patch? Give me a shout by PM if you want to discuss.
I don't generate my own energy at the moment... and the overwhelming reason is I'm legislated against using it without an inverter due to the items I can buy.
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Moly - I think it's the goods and appliances that are the problem, not the supply regs (showing my age there). And that B word that reduces the size of the market we're part of is a problem in getting manufacturers to come in line. Even if the UK government specs DC inputs in legislation, the size of the market will mean it's going to be difficult to get manufacturers to do much. A pan-European directive would have more teeth and I suppose there's still a few months to go. After that we could always lobby the EU - there's nothing preventing a DC input in UK law to my knowledge.
Steve - seriously, PM me. I look after innovation these days and DC homes are interesting. There may be something of mutual interest, there may not. But shall we try?
Copy me in.
I've not understood any of the last page!
For a complete numpty like me ,should the first people I approach for my system be Tesla?
I've heard of them and I like their cars. Would they fit it or do they sub it out to the local cowboys?
Someone said that in a power cut you wouldn't be able to use your battery. Is there any point having a battery if that is the case?
Tesla power wall
Moixa Maslow
Powervault
There are a few off the shelf packages - which do off the shelf things.
Others are developing more interesting packages.
But if you have a hot water tank then an export limiting device and an immersion heater can be a good way to use excess PV.
Steve - I can agree with much of what you say, but you need to slow down and check a few things.Hospitals, for example, generally have on site backup so they don't rely on a "24/7" supply. Even so they generally have a switched firm or auto firm supply (two forms of n-1).
Domestic properties normally have unfirm supplies (n-0) and if off are off for repair time.
A lot of what we are looking at is to improve the level of security for domestic customers as people have become more and more electrically dependent (and that is likely to increase with EVs etc).
Now home storage has a part to play in that, but it is an expensive option.
Fundamentally that is where I disagree with you - it's very expensive. Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.
And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
...
DC inputs to appliances doesn't seem unreasonable. It will add cost to have two inputs, and everyone pays whether they want it or not, but it's not unreasonable really.
Yep I'm mentioning hospitals and dialysis machines simply because the arguments are always "but what about" (not just energy but education, benefits etc.) We end up making decisions based on a few exceptions not the overwhelming majority... and then making sure the minority are taken care of as exceptions.
Home storage is pretty diverse... the average hot water tank is a long way from being efficient ... and then it's often distributed through unlagged pipes etc.
Batteries are pretty cheap ... especially when weight isn't an issue... plenty of caravans and motor homes run off them... and they aren't particularly well insulated to start with.
Dual power devices shouldn't be a huge incremental cost... my Blueray already has an external transformer... my Amazon digital TV is actually powered from the USB out on the TV.... in fact I'm say with 24 mains plugs right now all of them feeding transformers ...from the router to USB disks to the PC etc. The only item in my office requiring mains power is a oil radiator I use in winter instead of heating the whole house when working from home.
If I messed about with some hot water plumbing however I could just have a single radiator on but redoing the CH is a pretty major task ...
Taxes make one or two people doing what you suggest look attractive at present, but as more start to do that charging will have to change, and the true costs will be reflected.And it is the least able to pay in society that will be hit worst.
The true cost of an iPhone is a few quid... well less than £30.... but remember when a basic mobile phone was only for stock-brokers and they were the size of a brick ???
Despite the huge mark-up on production cost vs retail costs most of the least able in society seem able to pay for a smartphone (if not their power requirements and food) ...
I can buy a brand new car cheaper than a near top of the range MTB ... or I can buy a £500 MTB... if I buy a £6000 bike though I pay TAX.... if I import a whole bike I pay another 20% import duty... but the "least able to pay" can still go and get a decent used car for £2-3k.....
When you or I buy a XX/XTR over priced shifter, brakes or rear mech we pay tax ... SRAM/Shimano trickle down the tech so anyone can have a really functionally good hydraulic brake set for not much more than we pay for the brake hoses... (I can easily buy a full Deore set of brakes cheaper than some XT pads and new hoses) ... and they can go and buy a fine bike like a Calibre Bossnut for £500 because we are paying a lot more for some dubiously better stuff...
What I'm saying is making this mainstream actually benefits those least able to pay .... (far more than those who can)
5 years ago LED lighting was prohibitively expensive... today its considerably cheaper and the payback on energy is much faster... and it could be EVEN cheaper if they did away with the voltage converter/stabiliser in each individual spotlight...
Legislation say's you must offer a pay monthly direct debit... however it also prevents the least able to pay self regulating. When I was saving up to buy a house (for cash) I was as poor as anyone on a monthly basis ... low energy LED's were a big investment... and I spent a month at one point with £5 a week food budget for myself (not the kid) ... (I was earning a good salary but I treated it as savings for the house so every spare penny was saved - no nice bikes at the time)
What I really wanted was the ability to control my expenditure.... but energy legislation is entirely against that. I don't WANT a smoothed bill ... I want(ed) to save when I can.... and pay monthly... but you aren't allowed to do that... you are forced to smooth the costs which means speculating on an energy price for the next winter in order to bill me for this summer and in winter you are forced to give me an interest free loan on energy I used to collect the following summer???
Even paying quarterly I had to constantly read my own meters and then correct the bill... When I moved to the new house my electricity supplier refused to consider that my energy use would be different to the previous occupants and 2 years later I still got wildly inaccurate estimates. The energy company couldn't see that I monitor usage and adjust down ... if its colder we wear more jumpers or fleeces... and the upstairs has gone from 2-3cm of old compressed rock wool to 5-10cm Kingspan and doesn't need heating separately... My actual usage is 1/4 of the estimates I got based on the previous owner...who had the heating on 24x7 in winter and kw's of bulbs just in the kitchen .. they didn't even have a thermostat fitted ...
I was lucky in some ways as my enforced poverty did allow me to invest in things like Kingspan or LED lighting ... and specifically on LED lighting I was able to make an investment (in the rented house before my own) and when we moved I took all the ligthbulbs and put back the 12v halogens.. but I could invest and then get the money bcd over the year... HOWEVER the price of LED's has plummeted since then... it's now a much shorter ROI so that the poorest can take advantage.
Major house changes are on hold at the moment... when I stop spending on bikes and save enough I plan to do a major renovation and upstairs extension.... that will [u]completely[/u] change the wiring and plumbing but I'm in Woking if that's your area.
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Molgrips, IGM has nailed it..(appliances) .. and I've been trying really hard not to mention the B word .... (which for the record I'm vehemently against)
Steve - seriously, PM me. I look after innovation these days and DC homes are interesting. There may be something of mutual interest, there may not. But shall we try?
You may be un-surprised but I'm in innovation as well 😀
I recently did a innovation day for a big utilities company (though water not power) but I'm more usually at the other end of energy (and must do some rather than posting)... the innovation presentation I did was way more about HOW to innovate than the specifics ... and specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of.
I'm still not clear what the benefits of this proposal are steve - can you explain it in a couple of lines?
There's nothing to stop you buying a solar panel and wiring up some DC in your house for the appliances that do have DC inputs. It would be pretty cheap.
Actually this may be the next minor project but in the bike shed and kids playhouse rather than house.
specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of
Steve - agreed. Technology is the easy bit.
Then you are into finance & economies, existing legislation & regulation, social acceptance, roll-out practically (i.e. starting from here how do I get there?)...
And the fact that it works at a small scale doesn't mean it will at a large scale
Just as an update to last weeks usage, the Tesla PW2 app provides this data.
August 9th to August 15th
Home usage = 113 kWh
Solar generation = 100.4 kWh
To the battery = 59.6 kWh
Used from the battery = 43.9 kWh
Used from the grid = 29.8 kWh
Don't forget that we have an EV car, so our energy consumption is probably higher than most people's , we also only charge at home unless going to Cardiff etc.
Quite an initial outlay in terms of the cost of the panels and the newly installed battery.
This is partially offset by us receiving around £800 a year in tax free feed in tariff .
My simple maths tell me this, but this is based on good solar generation figures
Would have bought 113 kWh from the grid = 113 x 0.12 = £13.56
Actually bought , 29.8 kWh = 29.8 x 0.12 = £3.57
Actual paid for electricity = £9.99
But if you cost in the annual feed in tariff , as a weekly amount, then you get £800 a year / 52 weeks = £15.38 per week.
So forgetting the outlay, we are actually about £5 in credit, and running the car for free.
D99 how many panels do you have?
Are all panels the same, if not is one quality panel better than 2 rubbish ones?
nd specifically about how to remove blocks to innovation that are based on mindsets rather than what technology is capable of.
Ah, this old chestnut. Accusing people who find problems in your ideas with having the wrong 'mindset'. Better than actually addressing their points, and also denigrating them at the same time.
For what it's worth, I considered this concept many years ago, but then thought it wouldn't be worth anyone's time and effort. Power supplies are very efficient these days (ever notice how a charger for an old Nokia was pretty heavy, and a modern one is no bigger than the three pin plug it needs and weighs hardly anything? They aren't transformers any more) and also very cheap. I can't see that there's going to be much of an advantage. It would be better to do what now seems to be catching on which is putting USB sockets or similar in power sockets.
The low voltage solar idea though - that would be decent. All your low voltage devices powered from a small solar installation, with a cheap lead acid battery. But how much power would that really save?
A Samsung S7 has a 3.6Ah battery. Say there are 60m phones in the country (accounting for folk who use two), that would mean 780MWh to charge everyone's phones overnight. Given it takes say three hours to charge a phone that would be 250MW or what, 1/6-1/8 of a power station's worth.
Something like what, 25m households in the UK? Let's say the solar charging setup could be sorted for ooh, £500 all in. That would cost £12.5bn installation and zero running costs. How much does a power station cost to build and run?
So forgetting the outlay, we are actually about £5 in credit, and running the car for free.
Also - how many miles did you drive in the EV?
4kw worth of panels, 16 in total.
This is a Solar Edge system , it isn't dependant on the worst performing panel, they contribute individual performance outputs.They are all about the same with no drop off in performance.
You can monitor each panel individually via the web to see if there is a problem.
performed without a hitch for nearly five years.
Worth buying the solar edge system in my opinion.
We used 350 kwh in january and 175kwh in July.
We have a big east facing roof and a snaller southfacing one.
How feasible is it to be electric self sufficient?
30m metered premises in GB Moly - but that includes I&C - so about 27-28m. 25m close enough.
DC homes are expensive (say £2-3k per property) but allow other things to be done
Doubling the LV voltage by changing transformers perhaps (cables are 600/1000V not 230/400V anyway - though neutral displacement for earth faults would need consideration)
That might be a cheap option in time - given we might need more capacity for EVs etc (even with home generation and storage - though I note the figures above).
Potentially better resilience to faults, voltage control, power factor control, losses reduction.
It is worth considering at a whole house level.
Individual appliances? Not sure, but not willing to dismiss yet.
Zippyk - very. Maybe.
Not too bad in electrical energy terms, more difficult in electrical power terms.
More difficult if you want an EV or two and electric heat.