Footflaps, what monitoring system do you use?
It is called Neurio. I sponsered them on Kickstarter many years ago.
Available via various retailers etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Neurio-W1-Home-Energy-Monitor/dp/B0149EE5KS
It is very cool, although the detecting which device uses what doesn't work as it's set up for US devices - they'd never heard of a 3kW kettle....
I bet if I bought an energy meter I could work out which days she’s at work and which at home simply from the electric use fluctuations.
Yep, I can see when someone comes in etc, if I'm away, as turning lights on etc shows up really clearly.
20 cups of tea per day, you may well be more efficient getting a boiling water tap. They are ace and more economical than kettle if used frequently.
I've seen those advertised in the Sunday Times etc - they look like an expensive toy which will just die after a couple of years of our ultra hard water.
If you've got a smart monitor, you don't need anything else to monitor energy usage. I can tell you exactly what each of our devices uses in each of it's power phases. Oven - 150w when not actively heating - 1.8kw whilst heating. lights are 6.7w per bulb for the downlighters. TV is 100w on at level 17/20 brightness and 45w at level 10. Skybox uses 40w in STANDBY! etc, etc. It's probably not massively accurate, but it's enough that I know from the baseline house draw, what may have been left on in an evening before I go to bed.
Ours is two years old and been faultless, but we are in a soft water area with no limescale at all. I always thought they were a toy until we got one, it is really good. But I agree, in hard water area could get spendy.
Skybox uses 40w in STANDBY!
That is insane, our total standby usage is about 80 Watts - 2 wife boxes, half a dozen Sonuses, half a dozen IP webcams, oven, microwave, half a dozen Nest etc etc
That is insane, our total standby usage is about 80 Watts – 2 wife boxes, half a dozen Sonuses, half a dozen IP webcams, oven, microwave, half a dozen Nest etc etc
Are you providing heat to your wives when you put them in their boxes? Perhaps just give them a blanket instead. Could they share one box and stave of hypothermia by sharing body heat, like when peasants kept livestock in the croft house.
Could one of your 6 Sounesses help warm up your wives by going in their box?
Are you providing heat to your wives when you put them in their boxes?
Good spot, I'll disconnect the heating elements immediately.
Good spot, I’ll disconnect the heating elements immediately.
I assume they need to be warm though when performing for the six webcams. Its a balancing act for sure. These are the issues facing people up and down the country
Fossy - can you help me get our Tapo 110 plugs up and running?
I’ve tried to use the “schedule” option to set an automatic turn on / turn off time but it doesn’t seem to work.
When I have programmed “on” to 08:00 using a “custom time” I then find there is no option to set an “off” time - if I set the “off” radio button it shows 08:00 and if I change it to 18:00 and go back to the “on” radio button the time on that has been changed to 18:00.
This is on the IoS app. How does it work on yours assuming it works properly?
I’ve tried it on two plugs and it’s the same on both…
Won a little battle with OVO today that I've been fighting since they took on all the SSE customers about my usage and DD size. Got a small rebate and the DD has gone down from £190 to £92 with nearly £600 in credit on the account. Should get me through the winter if I'm sensible. Biggest costs for me are the oven and the storage heaters, hoping for a mild winter!
I started doing it. Heated water has to be one of the biggest costs. I think they’re called “military showers” – quick blast of hot water all over, water off whilst you do the lathering up, hot water back on to risne off. Probably using 3 mins of hot water. That’s got to be at least 50% reduction in energy used to shower.
My shower runs from the hot water tank and that's on for an hour during the night only, any less and the water isn't warm! Means I can have a longish shower and not worry about it, still leaves plenty of water for washing the dishes. Annoyingly the washing machine has provision for a hot water intake but there's no piping for it so that has to heat it's own water.
My shower runs from the hot water tank and that’s on for an hour during the night only, any less and the water isn’t warm!
If you had a less long shower .... It wouldn't need to be on so long.
And 80w standby with all the tech stuff on + general house stuff. What's that measured on ? Inline meter or CT clamp.
What’s just as shocking as the price rises is how people go days without a shower??
something tells me they must be single and have no intimate contact with other people.
Some of us aren't inherently smelly buggers.
Seriously though, I switched from shower gels full of shite to normal soap and don't reek any more. Same with shampoo, switched to bars and can go days without getting greasy and manky.
It is also possible to wash without showering.
@olddog my provider is offering the same prize. What a time to be alive.
And 80w standby with all the tech stuff on + general house stuff. What’s that measured on ? Inline meter or CT clamp.
Inductive clamp.
Fairly similar process for all makes (my BG Home plug sockets are similar.
Click Schedule then the + button.
Custom time then on.
SAVE
THEN click + again, custom time and Off.
You set up two schedules, one for off and one for on.
If you had a less long shower …. It wouldn’t need to be on so long
Surely it would?
The time it's on for is how long it takes to get to temperature, rather than to do with the volume of water.
The volume of the tank is fixed (it's not like a kettle where you just put in what you need) so leaving it on longer makes it hotter
Only ‘pain’ for setting up is you’ve got to knock off 5ghz wifi first which is a bit of a faff during set up, then turn back on.
On this,
I had no end of trouble with cheap Smart devices. I bought a 2.4GHz mini router for IoT devices and all the problems went away. One of the best £20 I ever spent, it is a superb bit of kit.
Ah - that’s great Fossy - thanks. I was looking for how to set the end time in the same schedule - didn’t realise it was a separate schedule for on / off.
The time it’s on for is how long it takes to get to temperature, rather than to do with the volume of water.
The volume of the tank is fixed (it’s not like a kettle where you just put in what you need) so leaving it on longer makes it hotter
Not sure where your headed with this statement
If you have a short shower and tank drops by say 20 degrees.
Or a long shower and drop it by 50
Which needs more energy to return to *hot* and set the thermostat to go off.
Your tank should not heat up past it's set point. If it does you want to get that sorted first and foremost.
The timer can only do a minimum of 1 hour but can do more in 15 minute increments. From stone cold it takes 1.5 hours to get to warm and 2.5 to get to hot, hot won't last me 2 days without any heating so it's on for 1 hour every night. Occasionally it'll need a boost of 15 minutes if it's really cold due to the incoming cold water temp.
If the tank is at 10 degrees and you like your shower at 30 degrees you have to heat the whole tank to 30 degrees.
You don't need to heat less water for a shorter shower, you can't just heat the first half of it to 30 and leave the other half at 10.
.
(You would probably have to go beyond 30 as it will be refilling with cold as it empties, the might be where you're coming from TR? A shorter one would use less energy in this regard, but you still have to heat the whole tank)
it’s on for 1 hour every night
The power to the heating element may be set to "on" for 1 hour every night, but there will be a thermostat attached to the tank that sits inbetween the incoming power cable and the heating element. Once the tank is at the temperature set on the thermostat, which may only take 30 minutes, the thermostat will switch off and you will no longer be heating the water or using electricity. It doesn't just boil for the full hour because that would be incredibly dangerous.
You don’t need to heat less water for a shorter shower, you can’t just heat the first half of it to 30 and leave the other half at 10.
You don't heat less water, but you use less heat to get the tank back to temperature after taking a shorter shower because the final temperature of your hot water cylinder is higher after a shorter shower than after a longer one. See here: https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-power
Assuming a 150L tank and a 3kw immersion coil:
heating from 50°C to 65°C uses 2.62 kWh
heating from 40°C to 65°C uses 4.36 kWh
you have to heat the whole tank to 30 degrees
And this would never happen. If you had the hot water tank set to the desired end-use temperature you'd never actually achieve that temperature because, as you say, when using hot water the tank is constantly refilling with cold which would mean it would be always be getting cooled below the required temperature by the incoming tank refill. You keep the hot water hotter than desired end use temperature and then use a blending valve to mix it with cold water and achieve the desired temperature. Your 30°C shower will (or should) be a mix of ~60°C hot water and cold water. You need the tank to be at a minimum of 60-65°C to stop growth of nasties like Legionella.
Well we have one person that understands heating systems and control systems within - and the dangers of how other people think it works...
Sometimes there will be a stat built into the element housing, sometimes there is a remote stat bungeed to the side of the tank.
Thermoclines mean the top of the tank is always wsy hotter than the bottom. Very little mixing occurs during heating. You can often set them at 50c, which does pose a legonella risk, extended tome at 55 to 60 though will probably be fine.
Seriously though, I switched from shower gels full of shite to
normal soapnothing but hot water and a bath brush/loofah and don’t reek any more. Same with shampoo, switched tobars and can go daysjust using hot water without getting greasy and manky.
FTFY, and an even greater cost saving.
Being reported that rates capped to give average bill of £2500 but £400 already announced discount remains. So £2100 - net effect about £180 more than now.
I just noticed taking shower for 20 to 30 mins cost me £1.10 per shower during summertime because that’s the only gas I used. 🙁
I'm still trying to get my head around this. How is 30mins in a shower even a thing? I timed myself last night, didn't rush or anything, just took a normal shower. It was 3min 45sec. 2 mins of that was spent brushing my teeth, would have been much quicker if I brushed them at the sink. Fair enough I don't have thick mop of hair to wash but I honestly can't work out what you would actually do in the shower for so long.
So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?
And what happens for those that tried to be proactive and invested in alternative energy? Do they also have to foot the bill? Should they pay twice?
I’m still trying to get my head around this. How is 30mins in a shower even a thing?
Likewise. Without timing, if someone had asked me how long I take in the shower I'd previously have guessed 6-7 minutes, but it's actually more like 3-4mins tops. Three of us managed back to back showers (not like that) using the same 10-mins on the timer at Glentress after a wet ride in the past, and still had minutes to spare at the end. Even little Ms a11y only take 5-6 mins and that's with near waist-length hair.
30min showers, there's got to be some monkey spanking going on there.
So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?
Still discussion about whether it will be a loan to energy providers - so will increase govt borrowing to generate the cash to lend out, but will not score as cost to government unless energy providers default. If providers do not default then the interest paid will cover the borrowing costs of govt plus a little bit more. Both the govt borrowing rate an the govt loan rate are very low compared with any commercial arrangements - but govt carries all the risk. Ultimately the costs will be carried by the energy bill payers (ie us) by surcharge on bills for next 10/15/20 years unless energy companies go bust and default and then taxpayer picks up.
Or
Alternative is government just gives a straight subsidy to the energy providers, costs count as spend immediately for Govt and costs fall to taxpayers one way or another (ie us). Although Truss believes she can accelerate growth in the economy which increase tax take so won't need to raise taxes. We will see. But what is true - no action would mean a massive brake on the economy, likely recession and a big drop in tax take - so it may well be cheaper in the long term to borrow hugely to prop up the economy.
Truss is reported to prefer the second option
Either way - doing this alone will take 4+ percentage points off the likely inflation figure (was going to hit 15% next year) - so it's a no brainer for her really
Thanks for the explanation. In fairness, I'd say we're heading for a recession either way, but I hope that this support will help throughout winter and beyond for the people who need it.
I think you may be right. There was an interesting graphic on Newsnight last night. Household energy costs adjusted for inflation have been c£1000 pa year since the 1970s until this year. Even with the new cap this is a doubling of that long term trend and that is spending money straight out of our pockets which cannot help but have a massive impact on the economy
So this new cap that is due to be announced, how bad is the long term borrowing? I mean, more borrowing than covid? Is it all government money?
no-one knows, as at the moment the market price for gas is unknown. The more different governments do this, the less usage will be surpressed across europe, and the more prices will rise.
which cannot help but have a massive impact on the economy
it'll be interesting - if thats how its managed, the impact will really disproportionately hit businesses that serve poor people with discresionary spending. pubs, takeaways, taxis etc in cheaper areas will take a massive hit, whereas those that serve household incomes of £60k+ will see very little impact
What about old people?
They keep their houses at oven temperature, then pay 15% more, with say 40% deferred.
Then they pop off this mortal coil, leaving the outstanding balance to be paid off by the remaining alive bill payers.
Yep. That's my plan.
Thanks suckers!
I might be being a bit thick but...
Not sure I get what flying Ox is saying. I think you keep tank at a temperature all the time?
I don't do that.
If I have a shower today, Tuesday, then I need to heat the whole tank from, say 10deg to 50deg or whatever.
I then have my shower, use the hot water which is replaced by cold.
The water which is left further cools over time. I then want another shower on Thursday. The tank is back down to 10deg now, and I still need to heat the whole tank again to get a warm shower.
Having a shorter shower on the Tuesday just leaves more hot water in the tank to cool over over next couple of days.
.
Obviously I don't have massive showers as that wastes water, but the electricity used is the same (assuming I use the immersion)
I am going to take me shower at work ...
Not sure I get what flying Ox is saying. I think you keep tank at a temperature all the time?
No that's not what he's saying.
Also cold water entering the tank doesn't continue to cool your tank once it's absorbed heat equal to that of its surroundings.
My maths is probably wrong but I think I’m going to be better off for the next 6 months. 🤔
Moved into a new house in April my duel fuel DD was set at £155. A month ago Shell suggested I up it to £170 which I did.
With the £400 discount that’ll knock £66 a month off for the next 6 months so I’ll be back down to £104/month and I’m currently £350 in credit.
Are fuel prices to be frozen at the current level or the proposed October level?
Your mistake is letting it cool between showers. If you have a well insulated tank (we all do by now Shirley?), then it will be much more efficient to leave the tank heater on all the time. Say your shower uses a third of a tank and influx of cold water cools the tank down from *65 to 50 degrees, it will require far less energy to raise that back to 65 degrees and hold it there for the next day or 2 than it will if you turn off the immersion and let the whole tank cool back to ambient.
(*all figures are made up by me)
If you have a well insulated tank (we all do by now Shirley?), then it will be much more efficient to leave the tank heater on all the time
It won't. Heat loss is proportionate to the differential between the tank and the environment, keeping the tank hot will just maintain heat loss at the highest rate. If left to cool naturally the rate will taper off as the temperature approaches ambient.
Yep no matter how insulated the tank is - heat loss is greatest at the highest delta T
Still doesn't mean it's better to use all the water you have heated just because you have heated it. Leaving hot in the tank will mean less heating bringing it to temp next time.
If your tanks going cold in 24 hours think about getting a new tank. (How bojo..... Will save you more than a 10er that your new kettle will)....
30min showers, there’s got to be some monkey spanking going on there.
You can always rely on STW to tell it like it is 🤣
30min showers, there’s got to be some monkey spanking going on there.
You can always rely on STW to tell it like it is 🤣
An expensive monkey spanking hobby LOL!
Actually I don't shower everyday, too cold. LOL!
