[Closed] So, this Scottish Independence thing Cameron's banging on about...

Nuclear subs would no longer be welcome

And as such the bases would close with the loss of all the jobs.

Very few jobs at huge cost per job. The money spent on nuclear subs put eleswhere into the economy would support far more jobs

The question I always find myself asking is that if Scotland's such a burden, why does Westminster want to keep it part of the union?

Thing is, when you're negotiating with other countries the bigger you are, the better - it gives you more options to play with. I personally think that Scottish independence would be a disaster for Scotland, for just this reason. Instead of being an important part of a large member of the EU it would become a small, marginal country far from the centre of power. (Whenever I read about European negotiations it's always France/Germany, then UK/Italy/Spain, I rarely (if ever) get to find out what Eire's opinion is...)

Sssssssssshhhh. Don't be letting uncomfortable old reality intrude into Alex's Northern Utopia

The money spent on nuclear subs put eleswhere into the economy would support far more jobs [b]in the South West of England[/b]

FTFY TJ

Imv this is Cameron being quite clever and going for an AV style outcome.

As for the price of whiskey, that will depend on wether Scotland adopt the Euro and they will come under an enormous amount of political pressure to do precisely that.

Mogrim - on the other hand at the moment Scotland has no say in the EU at all - after independence it would have a small say.

An example - the common fisheries policy. Of great concern to Scotland. Last time it was renegotiated no Scottish politician was involved at all. Scotland had no voice in it. This is a part of the democratic deficit

Most of the points sadmadalan raises have been answered by the SNP or would have o be the subject of negotiation.

the EU one from the unionists amuses me. If Scotland would have to renegotiate then so would the rump UK. At the moment we are a member as the UK. After Scottish independence there would be no more UK and the two successor states would be in the same situation.

The SNP have taken advice which is that Scotland would continue as a member as it is.

In fact pretty much everybody I know with more than 2 brain cells are filled with horror at the idea.

Lots of people I know with many more than 2 brain cells love the idea.

Clubber; they get honking great tax breaks for planting huge swathes of tight packed forest that they then tear up leaving a trench system that supports nothing but water and midge. Wouldn't benefit the newly free English government to pay it's landowners to grow wood in another country would it? Likewise a deal to suit scottish fishermen might be nice (and overdue) rather than the trade off done with the Spanish.

I personally think that Scottish independence would be a disaster for Scotland, for just this reason. Instead of being an important part of a large member of the EU it would become a small, marginal country far from the centre of power.

FFS has any Country /leader ever been more marginalised from Europe than dave has made us?He did this to protect his chums in the City.

No offence but thats a very weak point you are making about influences there especially with qualified majority voting and the right to veto

Most of the points sadmadalan raises have been answered by the SNP or would have o be the subject of negotiation.

TJ - where can I see these answers? Had a look and can't find any answers - specifically I am after costs and who pays?

Seems like an interesting subject to chat about I noticed a couple of Jock riders post on here, I wonder what they think?

We think you're an absolute arse for referring to us as "jocks"

+1

sadmadalan

Cost and who pays is going to have to be the subject of negotiation I think - You mean stuff like faslane?

Edit - the SNP website is rather thin on this - I have read stuff on it tho.

vorlich - Member
We think you're an absolute arse for referring to us as "jocks"

+1

Well you're of course welcome to think that, but it doesn't stop me thinking of y'all as "jocks" which if I were going to be particularly impudent might prefix with the word 'tight' and suffixed by 'gits', but I'm not in this instance, but I just thought I'd let you know that for my personal ironic benefit.

I'm also mildly amused by your heightened sensitivity for attention seeking device.

I have however to ask the question why, when it is a common colloquialism, and not particularly malevolent, nothing wrong with the word Jock, particularly since large sections of an entire soon to be independent nation calls itself that or did last time I bothered to look. 😉

do you think of asians as ****s afro caribbean as darkies or is it just just Jocks you mock for their nationality ..perhaps you call very Irsih person Paddy..either way other terms are easily interchangeable unless you want to look like an insensitve arse into moderate racial mockery/sterotypes. I know you wont loose any sleep over it which is why I said nothing originally - revelling in people asking you not to do this is quite low...do yo uoften refer to epoel by name sthey dont like whilst being mildly amused by your heightened sensitivity for attention seeking device.

I didnt think is was racism if the people on the receiving end are the same race?...Scots and Irish are white north europeans, same as most English....is there such a thing as 'regionalism' as i think that would be more appropriate!

I find the whole artificially enhanced 'sensitivity' thing a complete joke to be honest and fools on the internet that propagate something they would't question in real life total hypocrisy.

I don't revel being in their company, either, there are plenty here who are not like that and probably don't post for fear of falling fowl of you PC bigots.

So do one eh?

I find the whole artificially enhanced 'sensitivity' thing a complete joke

What's that then?

Regionalist!

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Wunundred! 😀

Bastid - little sneaky southern basitid!

In the interests of regional abusive balance

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Scotland is minted. England is skint. We'll be just fine once we get rid of the dross.

I didnt think is was racism if the people on the receiving end are the same race?...

You forgot:

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Ah well - there goes what was a reasonable discussion.

derekrides - Member

Starting to flap a wee bit now, all you are doing is just digging yourself a deeper hole. And as for your fools on the internet quote. I would pull you up for it if you said that to me face to face. Nice touch you using the word bigot; oh the ironing!

Aye dave not even being at the table when they discuss stuff...the sort of power Scotland can only achiever via the Union
FFS has any Country /leader ever been more marginalised from Europe than dave has made us?He did this to protect his chums in the City.

No offence but thats a very weak point you are making about influences there especially with qualified majority voting and the right to veto

Not really, just because the current government is anti-EU doesn't mean that the next one will be - and there's nothing to stop an anti-EU government being elected in an independent Scotland either.

(I'm avoiding the jock/****/whatever argument above!)

So, would the Queen keep Balmoral then?

Could the North of England not seak to become Scots, we would be free from rule from London and obtain Scotish rights of way.

willard - yes - SNP policy is to remain a constitutional monarchy

Mogrim - see my point abou the fishing negotiations - no representation from scotland,

So, would the Queen keep Balmoral then?

I'd imagine so. She owns it, after all. Unless Alex is planning on leaving the Commonwealth and launching a Robert Mugabe style land grab/ethnic cleansing campaign

So, Queen as head of state, separate country... That would mean that you would be independent, yet in the Commonwealth. So sporting event would not really change that much apart from the Olympics where you would field your own team right?

Could we not make fish quota negotiating an Olympic Sport? Perhaps a newly independent Scotland could up its ante to truly compete at international level with France and Spain?

Hang on a minute. I've just realised.... Its Fish Quota ignoring that France and Spain are world class at, isn't it? Which would suggest they're probably shite at fish quota negotiating

duckman - Member
derekrides - Member
Starting to flap a wee bit now,

Nope, surprised I'm still here tbh, expecting another ban at any second.

And it's urine, pee or piss, only jocks use the term 'wee'

and there's nothing to stop an anti-EU government being elected in an independent Scotland either.

and there's nothing to stop an anti-EU government being elected in an independent Scotland either.

Very unlikely tho ad the anti EU sentiment is not nearly so strong up here altho it does exist

Only solution is to make London a nice little Principality or similar where prosperity, diversity and culture run free and let the rest of the heathen, unkept trolls run around in the rest of the country.

Separate "Safe Zones" will be set-up in designated areas of oustanding natural beauty where the educated folk from London can spend their weekends partaking in outdoor activities free from the vile horribleness of the local population.

The national lottery could be adopted such that weekly one of the "others" from outside the magnificence of London could win the opportunity to come inside the golden gates and have a wash, haircut, trip to a museum and some sushi.

LHS....i like that, make it happen.

Scotland is minted. England is skint.

How d'you work that out then? 😕

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don simon - Member

I'd say give them independence on the single condition of enforced repatriation.

If you refer to two way repatriation then it's a deal. Too many Nigel's up here for my liking... 😉

yes but you note the elected bit and it still counters the point about Scotland having no influence in EU that it answered...they dont have any now elected govt they did not vote for who has annoyed everyone in europe...mm democracy in action .

Sorry, I've got no idea what your last "sentence" is on about.

I want to see a 100% complete and accurate list of what will be divvied up and how it will be divided up and what money is going where

e.g. Foreign Embassies and staff, fishing rights, everything the (current )country owns, all future purchases and PFI type deals that cvnt politicians of all parties have made and we are committed to, what happens about existing EU/Commowealth etc agreements and commitments, relocation of 'Govmt' institutions based in the 'countries' etc etc etc etc.

I'd also like a restriction in place so that once the vote is made there is a 100 year ban on the vote again.

slackin101 - Member
don simon - Member
I'd say give them independence on the single condition of enforced repatriation.

If you refer to two way repatriation then it's a deal. Too many Nigel's up here for my liking...

[i]We think you're an absolute arse for referring to us as 'Nigels'[/i] 😉

Mogrim - see my point abou the fishing negotiations - no representation from scotland,

That's is because the fishing rights are discussed at an inter governmental level in the EU and Scotland is part of the UK - and the UK was represented.

If Scotland was an Independent nation, there is nothing to say that they would get any more quota than they do at the moment. The North Sea has been hugely over fished by everyone and needs time to recover. Current fishing technology means that fewer people will be involved. Affects other parts of the UK than just Scotland.

That's is because the fishing rights are discussed at an inter governmental level in the EU and Scotland is part of the UK - and the UK was represented.

And then traded with Spain for concessions over oil seed rape.Which suited the huge potential (never realised,the EU cut the grant soon after)for production in the south.But not the single biggest source employment in the North East of Scotland.Huge % unemployment created by the stroke of a pen.The fishing is rather a touchy subject,unlikely an independent Scottish government would not protect our interests a lot better than Westminster did.And the territorial waters of an indy Scotland would protect the main fishing areas.

And the territorial waters of an indy Scotland would protect the main fishing areas.

What with?

Don't think you're having any of our boats...

Hah there's a thought, what a job that would be Ambassador to Scotland.

The whole idea is a joke, if it were up to me we'd be considering restoring that Prima Nocte lark and awarding it appropriately to us deserving 'Nigels.'

Could I just applaud whoever added the 'ajockalypse now' tag!

Genius! 😆

I think you will find that they are ALL of our boats. I would be disappointed if the figure of £60+ billion as our share of the UK's didn't include a few pedaloes. 😀

if it were up to me we'd be considering restoring that Prima Nocte lark and awarding it appropriately to us deserving 'Nigels.'

Didn't actually ever exist,but carry on Mr Troll.

Sadmadalan - thats the point as duckman explains - Scottish interests were not represented in the fishing talks. the UK government did a deal that does not suit Scotland at all.

Hence an independent Scotland would be able to stick up for scottish interests - fishing is one key area where scottish interests have been traded away by a UK government

Quick definitive answer on the subject of tuition fees- assuming Scotland independant in the EU, they would no longer be able to charge ROUK students differently from Scottish students- in the same way that currently we're required to fund non-ROUK students in the same way as we do scottish students.

(if you assume a non-EU Scotland, then freedom to do whatever they want)

Gusamac - there has been a lot of work done on that but its complex. Take faslane for one example. Obviously the nuclear subs could not be removed overnight - so who pays for the bases in the interim? Does the rump UK pay a lease fee? Who pays for the clean up of the sites?

Dunno why this stuff is not on the SNP website as I know there is work beendone on it - I shall email them and ask

Let them go ahead. has long as they don't expect us to bail them out afterwards

Bloody shouldn't be charging students fees anyway;that's a disgrace. I can see why the Scottish Uni's are,They would be flooded with applicants if they didn't charge.But that needs to go all over the UK,not just up here.

I would have thought it was fairly obvious why it's not on the SNP's website uncle Jezza

A) they haven't got the remotest idea what the **** will happen in the real world!

B) they have. But it's a very very very long way from the cloud-cuckoo land utopian vision being described by [s]Willy[/s] [s]wonka[/s] Alex salmond

I'll post up the answer I get. It will be interesting

I know there has been much discussion and even public announcements. A lot of stuff would have to be negotiated tho.

I think you will find that they are ALL of our boats.

[i]I think you'll find that[/i] I think you'll find that they are actually belongeth to Queen Liz, hence 'Her Majesty's Royal Navy'.

So; you gain full independence, queen no longer your head of state = you is no have any boats.

It's quite simple. You don't have to like it, you just have to accept it.

So, without a navy, how are you going to protect your seas?

Not read all of that: has anyone asked whether North East England can join Scotland, please?

elf - I think yo will find that they are the UKs boats so scotland gets 10% of them 🙂

Actually I doubt we will want much of the current fleet given that what Scotland needs is a small number of coastguard / small vessels - An independent Scotland is going to be out of nato and neutral and not going off killing people in far flung lands

Protect out sea from who? copters mainly I would think we would use

miketually - Member

Not read all of that: has anyone asked whether North East England can join Scotland, please?

This is an intersting question. I think if you asked nicely and all agreed.

Do you think Alex will be negotiating a fair and equal deal, from a position of strength TJ? Or do you think that the Tory government will have a hissy fit, throw it's toys out of the pram and tell Scotland to **** right off!

Hmmmmmm. I wonder.......

TandemJeremy - Member

Protect our sea from who?

Welsh corsairs.

So; you gain full independence, queen no longer your head of state.

If Scotland became independant they would probably allow England to keep the queen as their head of state.

I actually doubt a referendum will vote yes.

The Rump UK government will not be in a hugely strong position needing the oil and the electricity they get from Scotland.

If they do have a hissy fit they will lose I suspect.

elf - I think yo will find that they are the UKs boats so scotland gets 10% of them

No, I think [i]you[/i] will find that the Royal Navy has allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, and not to anyone else. Ergo, you'd have no boats.

Why do you think we'd let you have any of our boats?

You carry on with your dream. Never gonna happen. Not while you've got anything of any value. Once the oil and gas runs out, then we might cut you loose, as you'll be nothing but a hindrance to us...

Protect out sea from who? copters mainly I would think we would use

Need boats to fishery protection properly. Not expensive boats though (the one I served on was based on a deep sea trawler design) - not having to pay a share of those aircraft carriers (if they belong to the Queen) would probably free up the necessary funds.

queen no longer your head of state

Dont think there's been any statements or decisions on who would be the head of state. We could be independent and keep ol' Liz, no?

not be in a hugely strong position needing the oil and the electricity they get from Scotland.

I'm sure we can do a reasonable mutually beneficial oil deal with the [i]Crown Dependency of the Shetland Islands [/i] and cut Scotland out of the loop 😉

Rab C Nesbit for head of state!

On teh head of state - it would still be our current lot until the people decided they wanted a republic. Duke of Edinburgh after all. So phil the greek and Liz

thats the position stated as I understand it

I think you'll find that I think you'll find that they are actually belongeth to Queen Liz, hence 'Her Majesty's Royal Navy'.

So; you gain full independence, queen no longer your head of state = you is no have any boats.

I will type this really quietly little lamb; she is not really anything other than a nominal head of state.Nor is she any more English than Welsh or Scottish,as nominal head of the UK. So run this past me again,what makes England get to keep the [b]British[/b] navy when the UK splits up?

And cheeky edit;

You carry on with your dream. Never gonna happen. Not while you've got anything of any value. Once the oil and gas runs out, then we might cut you loose, as you'll be nothing but a hindrance to us...

And there will not be a truer sentence written on this thread.

phil the greek

Racist!

Rab C Nesbit for head of state!

I thought he was already first minister 😉

Charlie and Craig (The Proclaimers) for Transport minister and U.S Ambassador respectively!

Out of curiosity, what would be the recourse if a negotiated settlement couldn't be reached... UN intervention?

Elfinsafety - Member

Why do you think we'd let you have any of our boats?

Because there is no "we" and "our". They are a UK asset regardless of who they report to. I'm sure the Ununited Kingdom would be welcome to keep the proportional majority that they paid for, or to keep the entire lot but pay the difference.

You can't scam a country just by putting all the assets in the wife's name.

TandemJeremy - Member
miketually - Member
Not read all of that: has anyone asked whether North East England can join Scotland, please?

This is an intersting question. I think if you asked nicely and all agreed.

I don't suppose you'd be interested in taking the Northern bit of that other pain in the ass island off Liverpool, get yourself some more Rangers supporters..

So run this past me again,what makes England get to keep the British navy [b]when[/b] the UK splits up?

What do you mean, 'when'? 😆

It's not going to happen! So stop being silly, and accept that you are ruled from London.

You might not like it, but there's nothing you can do about it. So stop worrying about it and concentrate on building yer trams or whatever, try doing something properly for a change.

Bloody daft you lot.... 😀

Turkeys voting for Christmas, quite frankly. A brief period of childish satisfaction after the initial vote. Sticking two fingers up at 'the oppressor' (who'll actually be quietly gratified to see the back of you). Before you're grovelling back, cap in hand, when the economy does a Greece with in a few years

this^
the likelihood of Scottish politicians having a long term plan (and the political stability to implement it) is almost non-existent.
let them have the oil money (what's left of it) they will soon be the poor man of europe and just another portugal/greece/iceland.

I wish the independence mob would STFU.

We've got a great deal up here. Lots of devolved powers and all the benefits of union.

Plus the whining Sassenachs have never been so pissed off with us on account of how we've got it so good and that's got to be a good thing.

the whining Sassenachs

Racist.

With Cameron trying to force the issue, bearing in mind there is only one elected Tory MP is Scotland, and "The Iron Lady" at the cinema's, I doubt the vote would go his way.

Then again, the Tories have been trying to tell Scotland what the Scottish want for years, which only makes Salmond's job easier......maybe he does want rid of us?? 😉

Racist

Go on compare me to hitler and invoke Godwins Law!