[Closed] So, the A9 cameras + mobile speed vans....

I thought the black boxes are infrared light s?

Is it right that they have allowed HGVs to travel at 50mph instead of 40mph between Perth and Inverness on the singletrack bits?

[quote=shortbread_fanylion ]Is it right that they have allowed HGVs to travel at 50mph instead of 40mph between Perth and Inverness on the singletrack bits?
Yes. There are big signs telling you this.

Surely it's a first class idea to have speed cameras making money. Kills 2 birds etc. Stops the cretins who think that they are too good to obey the laws and moves some of the money from those scum to a better place.
There can be no moral or sensible objection to that sort of thing.

[quote=fannybaws] as the black boxes that i believe activate the cameras are sometimes before and sometimes after the actual cameras.AFAIK, the cameras aren't "activated" by anything. The cameras "image" every vehicle that passes.

Oh and

[b]Cameras can be installed in front or rear-facing orientation[/b] and violations can be recorded between multiple locations and multiple lanes within the system.

Ah cool - not been up for a while but that should help the traffic keep a bit steadier.

If they've put the same system as was on the A77 the don't necessarily monitor the whole thing just sections of it at a given time.

Update [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30972743 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30972743[/url]

Yep. All looking good.

Yep. All looking good.

Almost. Perth to Inverness is 20+ mins longer than it was, although as one of my colleagues said, it is preparing us nicely for 3+ hour Perth - Inverness times when the dualling works actually start.

I'd rather be late than late.

The (apparent) idea that we can only reduce accidents by reducing average speeds on a major trunk road is a message which has already brought demands for such schemes to be expanded.

Other ways of making the road safer were proposed but largely ignored as cameras are a nice cheap blanket fix. There wasn't a single body representing car drivers in the group which decided on the cameras, so that's hardly surprising.

My average has gone from about 54mph to 47 mph on a road where the average speed limit is about 63. There have to be ways of enhancing road safety whilst allowing people to use the trunk road network on journey times closer to what the roads were designed to take.

There have to be ways of enhancing road safety

Improved standards of driving might be a start.

The speed limit is a [b]limit[/b] not a target. With increased road usage the only long term solutions are either reduce the number of journeys or improve the infrastructure.

I passed my driving test 37 years ago. Back then it was relatively easy to have an average journey speed close to the speed limit as there wasn't a continuous stream of traffic travelling in the opposite direction so overtaking was straightforward, you didn't have to take risks. These days on an A-road if there's more than a couple of vehicles in front of me I'll just chill as it's unlikely that I'll get past all of them in any meaningful timeframe.

Having pootled up and down some more, I am now agreeing it is generally calmer (apart from the numpty in black Audi with bike rack on roof (natch) on Friday in heavy snow).

It is taking a bit longer, mainly in the queues that are building up at busy times behind trucks, but as said it seems to be 10-20 mins delay for full length of A9.

FWIW the truckers seem to be reporting slightly [i]reduced[/i] journey times.

There wasn't a single body representing car drivers in the group

I assume at least one person in the group holds a driving licence, so car drivers were represented.

That's probably the result of smoother road speeds. If you get someone overtaking then pulling in and putting on the brakes to make the gap so everyone else behind touches their brakes even just momentarily, each driver touches their brakes slightly later and vehicles further back end up properly braking rather than the nervous twitch of those near the front. So those vehicles actually slow down and then have to build up their speed again. HGVs like to keep going at a steady speed, if they have to slow down and speed up on a hill then it takes a long while and everything behind is held up as well.

FWIW the truckers seem to be reporting slightly reduced journey times.

The speed limit is a limit not a target

I assume at least one person in the group holds a driving licence, so car drivers were represented.

If you want to be pedantic, no advocacy group. It was Local Authorities, the Police, Road Haulage Ass'n and Public Transport bodies.

My average has gone from about 54mph to 47 mph on a road where the average speed limit is about 63. There have to be ways of enhancing road safety whilst allowing people to use the trunk road network on journey times closer to what the roads were designed to take

Dunblane to Inverness is 138 miles

At 54mph that would take you 2 hours 33 minutes
At 47mph it takes 2 hours 56 minutes
A whopping 23 minutes extra

Hardly earth shattering is it?

But it isn't a wide open road, it's increasingly congested so you adapt both your speed and your expectations accordingly. If you have to travel along the A9 when it is busy then you should adjust your journey time.

I don't think the extended journey time was ever claimed as earth shattering. The question is whether the same effect could have been achieved by other methods which would not have extended journey times as much.

No other options were explored by the group making the decision, as far as I can see, and the minutes of their first meeting make the whole thing sound like a forum for validating a decision already made elsewhere. At the very least I would have expected different safety options to be evaluated and the relative merits of each option made as public as the justification for the average cameras.

But it isn't a wide open road

I spent a winter season in Nethy Bridge near Aviemore a few years back while in-between jobs so spent plenty of time going up and down the A9 visiting mountains to climb, bike and ski.

Went up recently and the A9 was indeed much calmer and a much more pleasurable experience to drive.

Its worth noting that the speed limit is a maximum speed, not a target or a minimum. Nor is it a wide open road free of danger. Ok, so as UK roads go its on the straight side but it has its own dangers that might not be immediately obvious such as deer running out into the road, trust me you don't want to see the aftermath of that!

Have they actually reduced that speed limit overall?

20 mins longer is not a big deal, if it means that much leave 20 mins earlier
Chill out, calm down and don't be in such a hurry, there are few things in life that warrant trying to save 20 mins of time over.

It's way better. Much more chilled.

I reckon The M90 is still safer for a wheech to Perth. The Cats eyes on A9 put in for Ryder Cup stop at Gleneagles.

Crainlarich Bypass is now open. Quite a revelation.

[quote=mduncombe ]Have they actually reduced that speed limit overall?No changes in speed limits for anyone other than HGVs (7.5T) that are now allowed to do 50mph on the single carriageway sections.

The speed limit is a limit not a target

I wish people would stop trotting this out. It's a limit and a target. You will get minors on your driving test if you don't drive at an appropriate speed, which on a good road in good conditions is at or within a few mph of the speed limit.

Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down. Good news - I can live with journeys taking a little longer.

whatnobeer - Member

I wish people would stop trotting this out. It's a limit and a target. You will get minors on your driving test if you don't drive at an appropriate speed, which on a good road in good conditions is at or within a few mph of the speed limit.

That's very different from complaining that your average speed over a given distance is less than the average speed limit

Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down. Good news - I can live with journeys taking a little longer.

It'll be good to see what affect there is on the accident rate in the summer when the road is busier. A lot of problems are down to folks getting frustrated and doing dodgy overtakes, especially when there are foreign drivers getting confused with the switches from single to dual carriageway and back.

The A9 isn't my favourite road but I'd often drive it early in the morning when it was quiet when I was heading up for hillwalking trips. With the cameras in place I think I'd be using the cruise control a lot as it's easy to let the speeds creep up when it's quiet.

That's very different from complaining that your average speed over a given distance is less than the average speed limit

I agree. Unfortunately the general public aren't all as patient as the typical stw road thread contributor so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round. Let's face it, no one really likes driving up the A9 and the chance to spend 20 minutes or so less on it would be a nice bonus.

so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round

especially when there are foreign drivers getting confused with the switches from single to dual carriageway and back.

whatnobeer - Member

I agree. Unfortunately the general public aren't all as patient as the typical stw road thread contributor so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round. Let's face it, no one really likes driving up the A9 and the chance to spend 20 minutes or so less on it would be a nice bonus.

What do you want to do, dual the entire thing in the space of a few months?

can you give some examples where there is a simple, quick, clear cut improvement that can be made which will improve safety? Not forgetting that these measures are a temporary fix whilst the much more complicated and expensive infrastructure work is going on anyway.

Why does it have to be simple and quick? 😉

What do you want to do, dual the entire thing in the space of a few months?

Well, the could of started the work years ago. But.... yes?

Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down.

Has anyone seen any actual figures for before and after accident rates?

whatnobeer - Member

But.... yes?

I'm sure they could do it in just a few years, provided you don't mind the road being shut for all that time. Obviously we [i]could[/i] just leave everything as it is til it's dualled, which I think is due to finish 10 years from now, but that doesn't seem like a very good plan

I'm sure they could do it in just a few years, provided you don't mind the road being shut for all that time.

Why? There are huge sections over open moorland where the second carriageway could be built while the existing road was still operational. After all they didn't shut the road to build the line of new pylons and access track alongside the A9.

I'm probably going to be laughed at for this...but I love driving the A9 now the cameras are in place!

I find it much, much more relaxing now.

That said, I only drive it at the weekends and don't need to be anywhere in a hurry.

Whilst I am sure foreign drivers contribute to the issue - I'm quite confident that (a) most of the really dodgy driving I've seen on the A9 is from british drivers [UK plates, not typical hire cars] (b) the majority of fatal accidents on the A9 are not caused by foreign drivers

The foreign drivers are a factor and there have been some bad accidents caused by confusion with the changes etc., however I agree that most of the bad driving I've seen on the A9 has been UK drivers getting frustrated and overtaking when it's not safe. True to form it's very often Audi drivers and also a lot of the times it's cars that are carrying bikes.

Why does it have to be simple and quick?

What do you want to do, dual the entire thing in the space of a few months?
Well, the could of started the work years ago. But.... yes?

It has to be simple and quick because that is what the cameras and limit change were. The big, slow, complicated project to dual the whole thing is a long term solution. If you have affordable, effective, road safety measures which can be implemented in 2015 I am sure Transport Scotland want to hear from you. Since you still haven't given a single example I'm guessing you are just a "why doesn't someone do something about this" person...

Unless you have invented time travel what "they" could have done years ago is irrelevant.

Why? There are huge sections over open moorland where the second carriageway could be built while the existing road was still operational. After all they didn't shut the road to build the line of new pylons and access track alongside the A9.

Been travelling the A9 since way back when - all revved up for the overtake straight at Blair Atholl, remember that? The last few years - actually more than that, last decade or so - has been mental, I think in the spring / summer I travelled the A9 a bit and there was usually one 'oh shit' overtake manoeuvre each journey. I wouldn't say it was tourists fazed by the single/dual carriageway either, it was folk trying trying to make progress without regard for traffic in ether direction. If I have to brake sharply, it's out of order.

Travelled in October when the cameras were active - I'd say it was /possibly/ a slower journey but my heart rate was a lot better. Not ideal but I'd approve. Sorry.

I'm sure they could do it in just a few years, provided you don't mind the road being shut for all that time. .

I agree designing and building roads takes years rather than months. Still don't see why it would mean roads being closed for years. The M74 completion was built through an urban landscape with few if any road closures. It's surely easier on open empty moorland.

How long is the M74 extension and can you please point the A9 planners at the wide empty moorland at the Pass of Birnam and at Aviemore? I'm sure they are dying to hear from you.

I'm probably going to be laughed at for this...but I love driving the A9 now the cameras are in place!

I find it much, much more relaxing now.

That said, I only drive it at the weekends and don't need to be anywhere in a hurry.

Yes it's much better isn't it. All the people on the various facebook groups saying how they refuse to drive it now there are cameras, and are taking massive detours, are donuts. Maybe it's better because they aren't on it!

The M74 extension took years - 5 or 6 at least and involved lots of compulsory purchase of land. Some was derelict. The A9 is probably 20 times the length and with different challenges as scotroutes mentions as well as the lengthy compulsory purchase orders process. It's a huge project!

I've done quite a few A road and motorway deals. They're not quick. You're normally talking years before you even speak to a contractor.

Most are plagued with delays at every stage