Three times in the last couple of weeks on the A9 there have been mobile speed vans on the dual carriageway or overtaking sections at Slochd and Ralia. So no only do we sit at 50 all the way (or less), when you have opportunity to get past, you now sit at spot on the speed limit, so spending more time on wrong side or not getting past the HGV or transit.
Speed cameras have reduced the 'wacky races' approach to overtaking it seems, but seemingly creating another issue...
Maybe I should give up on 'making progress'... 😉
Sorry mods, wrong forum...
Overtake everything on the inside, thereby proactively dualling the whole A9 at a fraction of the proposed cost.
Time to buy a v8 110 eh?
You do know that it's illegal to exceed the speed limit even when overtaking, right?
Won't they ever think of the spirited drivers?
From recent trips up and down the A9 it's causing more dangerous overtaking than before. I've resigned myself to the fact that you'll do the whole trip at 40-50 miles an hour, but there are a lot of people that don't have the patience
Are the cameras front facing or rear?
To be clear, I'd like to do the speed limit, but say there slowlybecause you've ended up stuck behind someone on a bimble
I travel through that average speed section on the A9 most weeks.
I just set the cruise to 70 ish and sail through, can't say I've noticed any problems
Are the cameras front facing or rear?
Rear, so fine for bikes
Only been on it a couple of times since the cameras went live. Dunkeld/Aviemore on a sunday afternoon was fine, no holdups and averaging the limit. The return journey was on a friday evening, stuck in a mile+ long convoy, down to 30mph at times 🙁
I remember what the A9 used to be like e.g taking half an hour just to get through Pitlochry.
Are the cameras front facing or rear?
Rear, so fine for bikes
Not fine for bikes then! You mean they face the front?
Lovely road to drive up to Aviemore on BUT theres some suicidal arses on there tho, nearly whipped out by some idiot overtaking me by Pitagowen last winter ...
All for more cameras if it cuts out crap like that
O/T but A9 locals, what's the Sustrans cyle route like that runs alongside, Kingussie to Pitlochry, fine for a road bike?
There's a short section of gravelly path but I've done it on 23mm tyres and it was fine.
I've noticed loads of LGV drivers seem to be under the impression that their speed limit is 60/70 on the A9, rather than 50/60. Am I right to assume that the 'average' calculation is worked out based on the classification of the VRN, and not just purely distance/time = speed for al vehicles? Presumably the calculation has a look-up on the DVLA database?
Am I right to assume that the 'average' calculation is worked out based on the classification of the VRN, and not just purely distance/time = speed for al vehicles? Presumably the calculation has a look-up on the DVLA database?
It has to.
It is, but the chances of a standard (non tachograph-equipped) speedometer reading 60 when you're doing 60 are very low. An indicated 70 will probably be around 65, so within the 10%+1 margin for triggering the camera in a van on a dual carriageway. That's assuming they're set right on the enforceable limit too.
My experience since the cameras were installed is really positive, much faster flow of traffic, less idiotic overtaking, lorries seem to be cruising around 55 mph. No complaints at all, nice relaxed journey. People complaining that they can't break the law should grow a set and just admit they want to break the law rather than make up stories!
I remember what the A9 used to be like e.g taking half an hour just to get through Pitlochry.
Yep and have to wait for the ferry over the firth from Inverness 8) , though I wasn't driving at that age...
I think every journey recently on the A9 has been mental overtakes at some point. Some may be tourists. Others are locals or habitual travellers that really should know better. To the point where I hated it. If this is slower, but steady, that would be good.
First got my licence there was only about two really decent overtake opps IIRC - Blair Atholl straight being one, and if oncoming traffic, forget it!
A9 at around 11pm was the best time to travel -once it had been improved - door to door Edinburgh to Elgin at a decent steady speed all the way.
Good experience for me driving to Aviemore and back from Glasgow the other weekend. Wasn't ridiculously busy so just cruise control and a nice smooth journey.
Didn't get the usual idiot overtaking that always happens. Hoepfully this will continue. Only thing I am worried about is how it'll cope when it's heavy traffic.
Mind you my last journey in heavy traffic was made considerably worse by the A9 being closed due to a nasty accident...
I've had a few trips since the cameras were introduced and it seems to have improved things. There is still an issue of driver education though. Some folk don't seem to know what their speed limits are and there are still folk that brake when going under the cameras. I do wonder how many know how the speed is calculated.
The OP keeps forgetting that speed cameras are there to generate revenue and have precious little to do with road safety.
I do wonder how many know how the speed is calculated.
given plenty of people would struggle to tell you what an average is, i doubt it.
The OP keeps forgetting that speed cameras are there to generate revenue and have precious little to do with road safety.
As someone who has previously been caught for "making rapid progress" on the A9, I used to agree with you.
The average speed cameras do seem to make a difference IMO though. GATSO's definitely not, but I'm interested to see what these do to the accident statistics on the A9.
I do agree that the average cameras have been good, and things are calmer. And slower.
I was over the limit - in an attempt to not spend the next hour at a slow speed behind someone towing a tractor on trailer...
It just seemed somewhat harsh to add in mobile vans as well as the uber expensive new camera system. Maybe the sound of kerchiing is ringing.
[quote=matt_outandabout ]I do agree that the average cameras have been good, and things are calmer. And slower.
I was over the limit - in an attempt to not spend the next hour at a slow speed behind someone towing a tractor on trailer...
It just seemed somewhat harsh to add in mobile vans as well as the uber expensive new camera system. Maybe the sound of kerchiing is ringing.
The new camera system doesn't cover the dual carriageway sections.....but maybe I shouldn't have told you that 🙂
[quote=chrismac ]The OP keeps forgetting that speed cameras are there to generate revenue and have precious little to do with road safety.
Yep. Stick it to "the man" by refusing to break the speed limit. That'll show him who's in control!
The only thing it needs added now, is police marksmen in place to execute anyone that does an incredibly slow overtake in the dual sections, preventing others from getting past.
The new camera system doesn't cover the dual carriageway sections.....but maybe I shouldn't have told you that
It does between Stirling and Perth
Who goes to Stirling?
It does between Stirling and Perth
That's always struck me as being a dangerous section especially the bit just north of Dunblane: lots of farm traffic mixed in with speeding (I mean much faster not over the limit) vehicles.
Who goes to Stirling?
God only knows - there are some folk so unlucky that they have to live on the outskirts 😯
*looks out window at castle*
Aye, it is a dump...
Not fine for bikes then! You mean they face the front?
Well I would call it the rear, ie they face back down the road to where you've come from rather than forward to where you're going, I guess everyone who's interested understands anyway
Aye Stirling - it's shite alright - best you just stay away 😉
Hang on! @Scotroutes dont' you live in Aviemore?
i read somewhere they have alternated the cameras in some of the locations so some are front facing and some are rear. makes sense to me as the black boxes that i believe activate the cameras are sometimes before and sometimes after the actual cameras.
the m77 ones are older and are all front facing i think...
Hang on! @Scotroutes dont' you live in Aviemore?
You're not really insinuating that Stirling is nicer than Aviemore are you? 😐
I always thought Aviemore would have a cool apres-style nightlife. Brought down to earth with a massive hillbilly brawl outside the police station 😆
I always thought Aviemore would have a cool apres-style nightlife.
You've never been clubbing upstairs in [s]Cafe Mambo[/s] Super Panther 😯
The cameras are a con. Very few are connected, especially north of Dalwhinnie. None monitor the duals North of Perth. To get pinged you need to be "quite a lot" over the average and that is nearly impossible just now unless you travel late evening/early morning.
My experiences so far have been good on a Sunday and absolutely dire when my actual average was 40. It was quicker from Elgin to Aviemore through towns and villages and across the single track Dava moor road. It won't take too long for people to wisen up and some sort of normality be restored. All they have achieved so far is to reduce journey times and expectations for the majority. It was never the majority that were killing themselves. The nutters are just more frustrated than before and that can't be a good thing. There have been 2 fatalities that I have heard about since they went in and no reduction in accidents but those figures will not be made public.
I've not noticed an increase in my journey time and I drive it 5 days a week.
Scotroutes, how sure are you about that? Why on earth would they not cover the dual?
FB, what are the black boxes for?
Scotroutes, how sure are you about that? Why on earth would they not cover the dual?
They don't cover the dual sections north of Perth.
http://www.safetayside.co.uk/road-safety-/a9-road-safety.html
Average speed cameras
Average speed cameras are now in operation on the single carriageway sections of the A9 between Perth and Inverness and on the dual carriageway sections between Perth and Dunblane. The new system is an interim safety measure until the entire A9 is upgraded to dual carriageway.
I thought the black boxes are infrared light s?
Is it right that they have allowed HGVs to travel at 50mph instead of 40mph between Perth and Inverness on the singletrack bits?
[quote=shortbread_fanylion ]Is it right that they have allowed HGVs to travel at 50mph instead of 40mph between Perth and Inverness on the singletrack bits?
Yes. There are big signs telling you this.
Surely it's a first class idea to have speed cameras making money. Kills 2 birds etc. Stops the cretins who think that they are too good to obey the laws and moves some of the money from those scum to a better place.
There can be no moral or sensible objection to that sort of thing.
[quote=fannybaws] as the black boxes that i believe activate the cameras are sometimes before and sometimes after the actual cameras.AFAIK, the cameras aren't "activated" by anything. The cameras "image" every vehicle that passes.
Oh and
[b]Cameras can be installed in front or rear-facing orientation[/b] and violations can be recorded between multiple locations and multiple lanes within the system.
Ah cool - not been up for a while but that should help the traffic keep a bit steadier.
If they've put the same system as was on the A77 the don't necessarily monitor the whole thing just sections of it at a given time.
Update [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30972743 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-30972743[/url]
Yep. All looking good.
Yep. All looking good.
Almost. Perth to Inverness is 20+ mins longer than it was, although as one of my colleagues said, it is preparing us nicely for 3+ hour Perth - Inverness times when the dualling works actually start.
I'd rather be late than late.
The (apparent) idea that we can only reduce accidents by reducing average speeds on a major trunk road is a message which has already brought demands for such schemes to be expanded.
Other ways of making the road safer were proposed but largely ignored as cameras are a nice cheap blanket fix. There wasn't a single body representing car drivers in the group which decided on the cameras, so that's hardly surprising.
My average has gone from about 54mph to 47 mph on a road where the average speed limit is about 63. There have to be ways of enhancing road safety whilst allowing people to use the trunk road network on journey times closer to what the roads were designed to take.
There have to be ways of enhancing road safety
Improved standards of driving might be a start.
The speed limit is a [b]limit[/b] not a target. With increased road usage the only long term solutions are either reduce the number of journeys or improve the infrastructure.
I passed my driving test 37 years ago. Back then it was relatively easy to have an average journey speed close to the speed limit as there wasn't a continuous stream of traffic travelling in the opposite direction so overtaking was straightforward, you didn't have to take risks. These days on an A-road if there's more than a couple of vehicles in front of me I'll just chill as it's unlikely that I'll get past all of them in any meaningful timeframe.
Having pootled up and down some more, I am now agreeing it is generally calmer (apart from the numpty in black Audi with bike rack on roof (natch) on Friday in heavy snow).
It is taking a bit longer, mainly in the queues that are building up at busy times behind trucks, but as said it seems to be 10-20 mins delay for full length of A9.
FWIW the truckers seem to be reporting slightly [i]reduced[/i] journey times.
There wasn't a single body representing car drivers in the group
I assume at least one person in the group holds a driving licence, so car drivers were represented.
That's probably the result of smoother road speeds. If you get someone overtaking then pulling in and putting on the brakes to make the gap so everyone else behind touches their brakes even just momentarily, each driver touches their brakes slightly later and vehicles further back end up properly braking rather than the nervous twitch of those near the front. So those vehicles actually slow down and then have to build up their speed again. HGVs like to keep going at a steady speed, if they have to slow down and speed up on a hill then it takes a long while and everything behind is held up as well.
Not entirely surprising given they can now legally drive faster. Road Haulage Association was in the decision making group and pushed for it. There was no IoM / AA / RAC presence to get anything to assist car drivers.FWIW the truckers seem to be reporting slightly reduced journey times.
There's no reason it cannot be both on a wide open road.The speed limit is a limit not a target
I assume at least one person in the group holds a driving licence, so car drivers were represented.
If you want to be pedantic, no advocacy group. It was Local Authorities, the Police, Road Haulage Ass'n and Public Transport bodies.
My average has gone from about 54mph to 47 mph on a road where the average speed limit is about 63. There have to be ways of enhancing road safety whilst allowing people to use the trunk road network on journey times closer to what the roads were designed to take
Dunblane to Inverness is 138 miles
At 54mph that would take you 2 hours 33 minutes
At 47mph it takes 2 hours 56 minutes
A whopping 23 minutes extra
Hardly earth shattering is it?
But it isn't a wide open road, it's increasingly congested so you adapt both your speed and your expectations accordingly. If you have to travel along the A9 when it is busy then you should adjust your journey time.
I don't think the extended journey time was ever claimed as earth shattering. The question is whether the same effect could have been achieved by other methods which would not have extended journey times as much.
No other options were explored by the group making the decision, as far as I can see, and the minutes of their first meeting make the whole thing sound like a forum for validating a decision already made elsewhere. At the very least I would have expected different safety options to be evaluated and the relative merits of each option made as public as the justification for the average cameras.
There's only one bend I can think of Perth - Inverness where distance visible is even close to being as short as braking distance. That's an open road.But it isn't a wide open road
I spent a winter season in Nethy Bridge near Aviemore a few years back while in-between jobs so spent plenty of time going up and down the A9 visiting mountains to climb, bike and ski.
Went up recently and the A9 was indeed much calmer and a much more pleasurable experience to drive.
Its worth noting that the speed limit is a maximum speed, not a target or a minimum. Nor is it a wide open road free of danger. Ok, so as UK roads go its on the straight side but it has its own dangers that might not be immediately obvious such as deer running out into the road, trust me you don't want to see the aftermath of that!
Have they actually reduced that speed limit overall?
20 mins longer is not a big deal, if it means that much leave 20 mins earlier
Chill out, calm down and don't be in such a hurry, there are few things in life that warrant trying to save 20 mins of time over.
It's way better. Much more chilled.
I reckon The M90 is still safer for a wheech to Perth. The Cats eyes on A9 put in for Ryder Cup stop at Gleneagles.
Crainlarich Bypass is now open. Quite a revelation.
[quote=mduncombe ]Have they actually reduced that speed limit overall?No changes in speed limits for anyone other than HGVs (7.5T) that are now allowed to do 50mph on the single carriageway sections.
The speed limit is a limit not a target
I wish people would stop trotting this out. It's a limit and a target. You will get minors on your driving test if you don't drive at an appropriate speed, which on a good road in good conditions is at or within a few mph of the speed limit.
Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down. Good news - I can live with journeys taking a little longer.
whatnobeer - MemberI wish people would stop trotting this out. It's a limit and a target. You will get minors on your driving test if you don't drive at an appropriate speed, which on a good road in good conditions is at or within a few mph of the speed limit.
That's very different from complaining that your average speed over a given distance is less than the average speed limit
Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down. Good news - I can live with journeys taking a little longer.
It'll be good to see what affect there is on the accident rate in the summer when the road is busier. A lot of problems are down to folks getting frustrated and doing dodgy overtakes, especially when there are foreign drivers getting confused with the switches from single to dual carriageway and back.
The A9 isn't my favourite road but I'd often drive it early in the morning when it was quiet when I was heading up for hillwalking trips. With the cameras in place I think I'd be using the cruise control a lot as it's easy to let the speeds creep up when it's quiet.
That's very different from complaining that your average speed over a given distance is less than the average speed limit
I agree. Unfortunately the general public aren't all as patient as the typical stw road thread contributor so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round. Let's face it, no one really likes driving up the A9 and the chance to spend 20 minutes or so less on it would be a nice bonus.
a few people have mentioned this... can you give some examples where there is a simple, quick, clear cut improvement that can be made which will improve safety? Not forgetting that these measures are a temporary fix whilst the much more complicated and expensive infrastructure work is going on anyway.so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round
Whilst I am sure foreign drivers contribute to the issue - I'm quite confident that (a) most of the really dodgy driving I've seen on the A9 is from british drivers [UK plates, not typical hire cars] (b) the majority of fatal accidents on the A9 are not caused by foreign drivers.especially when there are foreign drivers getting confused with the switches from single to dual carriageway and back.
whatnobeer - MemberI agree. Unfortunately the general public aren't all as patient as the typical stw road thread contributor so measures that increase safety without adding journey time would make every happier all round. Let's face it, no one really likes driving up the A9 and the chance to spend 20 minutes or so less on it would be a nice bonus.
What do you want to do, dual the entire thing in the space of a few months?
can you give some examples where there is a simple, quick, clear cut improvement that can be made which will improve safety? Not forgetting that these measures are a temporary fix whilst the much more complicated and expensive infrastructure work is going on anyway.
Why does it have to be simple and quick? 😉
What do you want to do, dual the entire thing in the space of a few months?
Well, the could of started the work years ago. But.... yes?
Unsurprisingly accidents and fatalities are down.
Has anyone seen any actual figures for before and after accident rates?
whatnobeer - MemberBut.... yes?
I'm sure they could do it in just a few years, provided you don't mind the road being shut for all that time. Obviously we [i]could[/i] just leave everything as it is til it's dualled, which I think is due to finish 10 years from now, but that doesn't seem like a very good plan