Like Salmond or not, you have to admit he runs rings around Cameron. I mean, look at what's on the wall behind them:
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🙂
But a vote for independence isn't a vote for Salmond, and it's not a vote for the SNP - it's a vote so that Scots get to decide who runs Scotland. After independence, we can all go and vote for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, whatever.
Except England doesn't actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.
Really? You must be reading different threads. At best it's a shrug of a shoulders and a WGAF.
EDIT: Or maybe not! 😆
INRAT, but I hope Scotland doesn't get independance - we need all the Labour seats we can get.
Saying that, if you do vote yes, I'd be moving up there asap.
Salmond is a manipulative master who runs rings around everyone at Westminster, never mind the non-entities and political pygmies in Holyrood.
But by far his greatest asset is David Cameron's Home Counties, Eton-educated, Notting-Hill-dwelling mug popping up saying how we're all all better off together - not least, because that has rings of the 'we're all in it together' phrase he used to say, but we strangely no longer hear any more. He's like political kryptonite everywhere outside the south east anyway.
So the best thing Dave could do is to shut the **** up for the duration. However... as he's a politician, he'll be pathologically incapable of doing this. And that, to Alex, will be the gift that never stops giving. No wonder he looks smug!
Ten minutes reading an independence thread on Singletrackworld would persude even the most ardent Scottish Unionists to vote for independence!
Seems a fairly calm thread so far, a few interesting questions, and very little arguing over whether Scotland provides more or less money than it takes from the Treasury. (My understanding is that no-one really knows, which is why the debate rumbles on...)
After independence, we can all go and vote for Scottish Labour, the Scottish Conservatives, whatever.
something that most people seem to have missed, including many on this six page thread of shoulder shrugging and claiming not to GAF whilst posting 5 times on one page.
Like Salmond or not, you have to admit he runs rings around Cameron.
Yeah, right. Cameron's in a perfect position: win the referendum, he's a hero to his party. Lose it: get rid of the troublesome Scots, all those Labour MPs... Screw the Union, this massively increases the chance of a Conservative government in Westminster for the next 20 years. It's a win-win situation for him, the only loser here is Labour.
And us...
the only loser here is [s]Labour[/s] everyone in the remainder of the British Isles, outside the South East Conservative heartlands, who are now saddled with an endless Tory Hegemony, they never voted for
FTFY
It really, really doesn't bear thinking about 🙁
Except England doesn't actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.
I struggle with long sentences but...
I'm English. I care if Scotland want to leave the union. I'd rather the whole island stuck together tbh. I reckon it makes us stronger and more resilient - albeit I think there needs to be some rebalancing of resources. However if the people of Scotland want it then I'll support them in their decision. You support your friends no? And for all the bollocks between our two nations we have sacrificed a lot for each other.
You are keeping TJ though 🙂
It's been a fairly well reasoned debate so far.
The ecomonic argument is a difficult one to make for either side. The actual figures are very difficult to pull apart and there seems to be deliberate obsfuscation by both side to support their own side of the argument.
I think the ideological argument is the one that needs to be made.
the only loser here is Labour everyone in the remainder of the British Isles, outside the South East Conservative heartlands, who are now saddled with an endless Tory Hegemony, they never voted for
Actually, it won't be that bad for you guys - I don't think the Scottish vote has swung any Westminster election for a long time. And on the bright side, you won't have to put up with our village idiots like Gove and Blair heading down south to get elected 🙂
I think the ideological argument is the one that needs to be made.
Completely agree - look at how FUBARed the economy has got in the last 5 years, anyone claiming to know what it'll be like in 20 or 50 is lying. What this is about is simply that it's about time Scotland stood on its own feet - and this will be a good thing for Scotland as well as England, we won't be able to blame the English for everything any more.
And Gordon Brown...
we won't be able to blame the English for everything any more.
Can we hold you to that?
An interesting question is this: What do the Welsh think? These arguments always seem to be old adversarial in nature between the English and the Scots. Presumably Scotland leaving the Union would affect the Welsh, and they would probably be more neutral in their response than either the Scottish or the English.
Apart from that, does anyone have any real idea about how the EU would work out? Who's to say that either Scotland or the remainder of the UK as one nation would be allowed to remain? It's all very well suggesting a strong chance for renegotiation for the rUK, but what if the Germans and French really are that fed up with Cameron's tantrums?
You are keeping TJ though
It's taken six pages but finally the spectre of TJ-cleansing raised it's helmetless head...Will a newly elected government of an independent Scotland make helmets compulsory? That'll get rid of him!
zokes - Member
Except England doesn't actually want independence judging by the amount of knicker wetting from the English that goes on every time one of these threads gets started.
Really? You must be reading different threads. At best it's a shrug of a shoulders and a WGAF
You are not seriously claim you don't care about this are you? Because when I don't care about a subject I tend not to try and start arguments with strangers on the internet about it...Maybe that's just me though.
But strangely when I do find myself arguing about something on the internet, and the stranger I'm arguing turns out to be well-informed, reasonable and persuasive or maybe just more persistent, I then [i][b]pretend[/b][/i] not to care...hmmmm.
Bring it on! The sooner england is out of the EU the better!
Apart from that, does anyone have any real idea about how the EU would work out?
From my understanding, it depends on whether Scotland is a "new" country, or a "successor" country (I may have the exact terms wrong).
If a new country, then we start from a blank slate - no EU membership, no membership of NATO, and no national debt. But in that case, the rest of the UK (can we please start calling it Little Britain?) would also be a new country, wouldn't it?
If a successor country, then we inherit EU membership, a share of the national debt (and assets), and everything goes on as before.
I don't think anyone can say for sure what is correct legally - it'd have to be negotiated.
And there is the ownership and disposal costs of any nuclear waste to be considered.
The sooner england is out of the EU the better!
pourquoi?
I'm not really sure how either of those scenarios would work particularly. Clearly the 'new' country thing is out, because as much as everyone would like to forget the national debt(s), I'm pretty sure the creditors won't.
And as before, the act of recognising Scotland and accepting her into the EU does raise some interesting questions for several other European countries with regions of an independent bent. Either way, it would probably be a good thing for all concerned to have these minor details a little clearer before anything's seriously considered!
Who's to say that either Scotland or the remainder of the UK as one nation would be allowed to remain? It's all very well suggesting a strong chance for renegotiation for the rUK, but what if the Germans and French really are that fed up with Cameron's tantrums?
Well... the bottom line is that either of us, independent or not, look like economic powerhouses compared with the financial basket cases that presently make up a majority of the EU. Which is why we are, and will continue to be, tolerated. We're a net contributor. And right now, that's all that counts
Scots. Presumably Scotland leaving the Union would affect the Welsh, and they would probably be more neutral in their response than either the Scottish or the English.
Sun stroke from Australia 😉
IME it depends how nationlaistic the Welsh person is - if they are pro Union they are pro union if they are natiionalist they supports Scottish nationalism as well. Not sure anyone is actually independent when they have aview on it,
Apart from that, does anyone have any real idea about how the EU would work out?
Looks good to me I think the Euro zone will be a sucess and the growth will return
Who's to say that either Scotland or the remainder of the UK as one nation would be allowed to remain?
I doubt they want The UK to leave tbh as it doe snot really help the EU
It's all very well suggesting a strong chance for renegotiation for the rUK, but what if the Germans and French really are that fed up with Cameron's tantrums?
They may be just a little bit more mature than Cameron amnd as they support a big Europe they will want them both to stay
IMHO Cameron is showboating to his right wing colleagues _ I dont think he actually want to leave the EU annd he is gald to have the Lib Dems in coalition so his hands are tied and he can blame them
Sun stroke from Australia
It's been quite a pleasant day here actually - a nice, warm 28 degrees - bring on spring and nice long evenings with a cold beer!
You are keeping TJ though
no no no no that's not how it works at all.
And there is the ownership and disposal costs of any nuclear waste to be considered.
Yup, there's even a bunch of old nuclear subs at Rosyth which they resorted to asking the public for ideas what to do with. Completely ignored all my suggestions 🙂
@zokes - yes, the "new" suggestion is really one to counter the people who say that of course Scotland wouldn't have EU membership. I think the most likely is that everyone inherits the membership of the UK.
Cameron is actually "reasonably" happy with the EU. We are part of a customs and free-trade union with the advantages (and disadvantages?) that this brings. But we are not part of a fixed-exchange rate system with the disadvantages (an advantages?) that this brings and which is crippling S Europe (among other things). With a bit or re-patriation of a few legal powers I think he will remain perfectly happy.
Junkyard - Member
Looks good to me I think the Euro zone will be a sucess and the growth will return
On that wonderfully positive note and with the sun shining, time to get out and play some golf or ride my bike!
p.s. Ben, FWIW, the new state idea is a non-starter IMO. Of course, I am sure AS would love to absolve himself and Scotland of all liabilities!!!
Now we begin to get an idea of what a "No" might mean for the UK
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19957358
I object to the opening paragraph though
Scotland already "raises" more than it spends 😈Scotland would raise around two thirds of all the money it spends, under proposals due to be unveiled by the Scottish Liberal Democrats.
It's been quite a pleasant day here actually - a nice, warm 28 degrees - bring on spring and nice long evenings with a cold beer
Grumbles jealous abuse it is like when you were last here but windier and colder
THM I agree CMD sees the positive trade aspects of Europe and wants to keep them but he does l=not like the political or social aspects
I have decided to become STW stalwart supporter of the Eu at all costs 😉
I am not I am still largely ambivalent to it
IMHO Cameron is showboating to his right wing colleagues _ I dont think he actually want to leave the EU annd he is gald to have the Lib Dems in coalition so his hands are tied and he can blame them
Blimey! We actually agree on something regarding Europe 😉
He must be privately thanking Gordon though, for making sure he didn't take us into the slow motion car crash that is the Euro
p.s. Ben, FWIW, the new state idea is a non-starter IMO. Of course, I am sure AS would love to absolve himself and Scotland of all liabilities!!!
It's more a counter to the argument that Scotland wouldn't inherit anything from the UK - if we don't inherit anything, then we don't inherit the debt either.
All this discussion about minutiae is distracting. Stuff will be sorted out by negotiation. People are getting hung up on what happens to the Post Office and the nuclear weapons. What we should decide is the principle - do we want Scotland to be free to rule itself? Once that's sorted, we can take care of the details later - and do so by negotiating amicably with the rest of the UK.
ohnohesback - MemberI do want scottish independence. Whether the scots want it or not.
ohnohesback - MemberBring it on! The sooner england is out of the EU the better!
England - the future according to some
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And as before, the act of recognising Scotland and accepting her into the EU does raise some interesting questions for several other European countries with regions of an independent bent. Either way, it would probably be a good thing for all concerned to have these minor details a little clearer before anything's seriously considered!
Not to mention suddenly there's another vote at the table - possibly with a veto on things like oil exploration, fishing, agriculture... (and that's ignoring the vote "dilution" of having an extra country at the table.)
Grumbles jealous abuse it is like when you were last here but windier and colder
So what's happened is that the North West is recreating Scotland's climate so it doesn't even matter meteorologically if Scotland leaves the union?
I don't think I'd ever been out in more disagreeable weather even in 10 years in Wales.
[quote=zokes ]Grumbles jealous abuse it is like when you were last here but windier and colder
So what's happened is that the North West is recreating Scotland's climate so it doesn't even matter meteorologically if Scotland leaves the union?
The Outer Hebrides and far North West of Scotland have had a really dry summer (not for the first time). I'm thinking of moving 😆
Aye, we had the fine timing to go up to Fort William for a long weekend, on the exact day that the dry spell broke- but up til that point they were having a freakishly dry summer.
Just come back from long weekend golfing in Scotland. Four matches against teams of varying backgrounds - very traditional to young students. Didn't find one "yes" person all weekend, which was a surprise especially among the younger opponents (university students). Even more surprising was the general air of indifference.
Just come back from long weekend golfing in Scotland. Four matches against teams of varying backgrounds - very traditional to young students. Didn't find one "yes" person all weekend,
Very surprising. Salmond seems very pro Golf 😀
There would be courses everywhere.
If Scotland leaves can we not change the clocks for winter please.
I hate it.
The Outer Hebrides and far North West of Scotland have had a really dry summer (not for the first time). I'm thinking of moving
you'll have to learn to walk at 45 degrees though
wrecker - Member
Very surprising. Salmond seems very pro Golf
The sign of a proper Scot! I will give him that.
