[Closed] So my bro got caught speeding

So you'd fail for not driving past my local school at kicking out time at 30mph.

He missed the bit about driving to conditions. Like I just said, you're expected to drive to the limit unless there's a reason not to. A school in hours would be a valid reason.

Though I admire your optimism at being able to drive past a school at 30mph at chucking out time. My commute goes past a school and if I time it wrongly it takes 20 minutes to cover 40 yards.

At an indicated 65 the differential between your speed and that of most lorries is walking pace.

You must walk really quickly.

Where are people going that is so damn important?

I think that all cars should be electronically governed so that their maximum speed is 30mph . What that would do is stop people from commuting miles to work in their cars , stop the majority of fatal accidents , save fuel , encourage the use of trains as they would be the fastest way to travel on land . Police and emergency vehicles could be governed to 40mph which would rule out high speed police chases and the associated carnage . Make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians . I realise that most folk on this cycling forum are awesome drivers and won't agree .

[quote=Cougar ]At an indicated 65 the differential between your speed and that of most lorries is walking pace.

Either you walk a lot faster than me, or your speedo is incredibly inaccurate. You do know that HGVs are limited to 56, which is less than an indicated 60 in my car? Given only a 5mph speed differential it only takes ~20s to travel 50m further than the lorry which is sufficient to pull out overtake and pull back in, so your "miles on end" is something of an exaggeration.

Of course it does depend on where and when you drive - if there are wall to wall lorries in the left lane then you'll be in the middle lane if you want to do 65, but then in such conditions doing 65 in the middle lane is unlikely to make a significant difference to the speed everybody else can do. However by making the assumption that it's not possible to drive at 65 on the motorway without being inconsiderate you seem to be doing the usual "all motorway driving is the same as what I experience" thing. Anecdotally I was doing ~65 on the motorway the other day without inconveniencing anybody else (usually if driving a bit slower I'll drop to an indicated 60, tuck in behind a lorry and hypermile, but on this occasion there were no lorries on the road so I sat in the left lane for mile after mile).

I dont generally speed, but I once got caught four times in four days doing between 35-38mph along a quiet country lane i always thought was 40mph by a mobile speed catcher van!! all the letters came through at once, went from spotless to 9 points and a speed awareness course!

trail_rat - Member

Funny you should mention that km79

I sat mine again in November for extra entitlement and got 0 faults.

That was your trailer test wasn't it?
You can hardly claim a clean sheet on a proper driving test when, IIRC, you admitted to crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your grip, both likely to get you a minor.
😉

Assuming the two cars are identical (i.e. have the same mass) then the amount of kinetic energy that each has can be represented as the square of the velocity (E = 0.5*m*v^2) so for a car doing 70 it is 4900 and the car doing 90 is 8100. Subtract the "70" from the "90" and you get 3200 which when you take the square root to get back to the speed would be 56 mph as previously. To have the second car still doing 70 you would need it to be doing about 100 mph (well 99 but close enough)

Does that take account of the thinking/reaction time? 'Thinking' for a second at 90mph will cover a bigger distance than at 70mph. So you're already ~30% further down the road before you even touch the brake pedal.

Well I have the paperwork to say it was a cleansheet - works for me

My reverse with trailer into the space was done with one hand on the wheel spinning it as well...

None of which are speeding issues which is the discussion at large here.

To be fair I drive under the limit of the road a majority of the time.

But to the limits of my vehicle.

My camper does 55mph on cruise as any more and the fuel economy drops below 20mpg and it gets noisy due to being low geared for towing as well as being near as damnit 3500kg to stop an that doesn't happen in a hurry. Neither does it corner like an exige.

My landy does 55 ..... As much more and the engines doing max rpm which is neither good for my engine nor my ears again due to low gears for towing. Again doesn't stop in a hurry nor corner well....

Limits a limit not a target.

As I said, drive to conditions, that includes vehicle. Your Iveco probably shouldn't be allowed to do the higher limit but as it's been registered as a camper it can. Personally if I had 3.5 tonne behind me I'd be going slower (as I do when towing).

Dunno about "now" but it was the case when I learned to drive back in like 1990. You'll fail if you don't drive to the posted limits unless there's a valid reason not to. Or at least, that's what my instructor told me and I've little reason to doubt him.

Same. As we are constantly reminded speedo's over read (IIRC it's legally 1.1xV+10 max in the EU which is a fair chunk) so by driving slower than your own indicated limit you are well below the posted limit. So if conditions allow, do the world a favour and stop hindering folk.

I presume you're doing the usual conflation of somebody doing something perfectly legal and safe being dangerous because it forces other people to be dangerous.

Actually, no, I'm taking something that can be marked as a serious fault on a driving test and pointing out that constantly driving under the limit is a hinderance to other road users as well as being bad driving. It's not perfectly legal at all otherwise you wouldn't get failed on your driving test for it.

You also presume too much, I said nothing about other road users and their actions. It is possible to become frustrated with another road user and still safely and legally overtake (ie. making progress; another required part of the driving exam and not just a tied STW trope).

trail_rat - Member

Well I have the paperwork to say it was a cleansheet

Yes, on your trailer test. Well done.

None of which are speeding issues which is the discussion at large here

It's ok, you can mention it as much as you like, no matter how irrelevant.
😆

Either you walk a lot faster than me, or your speedo is incredibly inaccurate. You do know that HGVs are limited to 56, which is less than an indicated 60 in my car?

At an indicated 65 your actual speed is probably 58-59mph, 2-3mph faster than the lorries who are doing 56mph. How slowly do you walk?

your "miles on end" is something of an exaggeration

You seem to have misread. I said,

[i]"So you'd [b]either [/b]have to be constantly weaving in and out of traffic [b]or [/b]sat in the middle lane for miles on end."[/i][i]

If you've overtaken a lorry then there's a good chance that it's not one in isolation. If you habitually drive at 65pmh on the motorway it's likely that you're also a paid-up member of the Lane Two Owners' Club.

you seem to be doing the usual "all motorway driving is the same as what I experience" thing.

No, that's just something you've inferred in order to make it look like I'm wrong. (-: Of course I'm generalising and motorway conditions vary wildly. You can almost certainly drive at 20mph in the middle lane and inconvenience nobody if the rest of the traffic is similarly slowed or if it's 4am.

I think that all cars should be electronically governed so that their maximum speed is 30mph . What that would do is stop people from commuting miles to work in their cars , stop the majority of fatal accidents , save fuel , encourage the use of trains as they would be the fastest way to travel on land . Police and emergency vehicles could be governed to 40mph which would rule out high speed police chases and the associated carnage . Make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians . [b]I realise that most folk on this cycling forum are awesome drivers and won't agree [/b].

You don't have to be an awesome driver to realise how stupid this suggestion is. 1/10

(IIRC it's legally 1.1xV+10 max in the EU which is a fair chunk)

IIRC, it's +10%, +6.25mph in C&U regs.

Have you done the trailer test ? You'll be aware that these days it's a normal driving test not the drive around a carpark and reverse in here it used to be.

Caught me out as well I wasn't expecting to turn up to a full driving test.

You can do your b+e in lieu of your regular driving test these days.

But don't let that stop your misinformed preconceptions

It's not perfectly legal at all otherwise you wouldn't get failed on your driving test for it.

It's a failure because it demonstrates hesitancy or a lack of confidence, not because it's illegal. There are very few roads in the UK which have a minimum speed limit. (Has anyone ever seen one, incidentally? I think the only time I've ever seen the road sign is in THC.)

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-annual-report-2016

more fun facts.

In 2016 72% of all casualties (inc non-fatal) occured on built up roads ie [u][b]40 mph or less[/b][/u] speed limits.

only 5% occured on motorways.

In 2016 72% of all casualties (inc non-fatal) occured on built up roads ie 40 mph or less speed limits

Can we remove all the ones that involved pedestrians/cyclists (of which there should be none on the motorway )

Be interesting to know what that number of people injured inside their cars are for both built up and motorways. I suspect 5% Will remain near enough and the 72% will drop dramatically.

EU is 0 _< V(indicated)-V(true) _< V(true)/10 + 4kph

Our C&U formula will meet that criteria. In any event, we still over read so my point stands.

This.

If someone’s happiest doing no more than 65 in a 70, regadrless of whether the conditions are good or bad, then so what?

As long as their lane discipline is correct then they are doing nothing wrong & not being a problem.

Hmm. Don't entirely agree with this, especially on motorways. I reckon generally, most people stick to 70 or thereabouts on the motorways with lorrys doing 60. Everyone must have come across the odd occassion where the lorry in the inside suddenly comes across Doris in her Micra doing 45 and has to pull out pretty quickly into the middle lane and as a result probably causing the person in the middle lane cruising at 70 out into the outside.

In my opinion, which counts for absolutely nothing, although there is a limit of 70 for cars on UK motorways, you should go at it. Everyone moving along at a similar pace generally makes things move smoother and means a lot less stress for the drivers. I spend quite a bit of time on the M62 past Leeds with its managed motorways. I have my doubts about whether its made congestion at rush hour any better but when its clear on a weekend with the speed cameras, 99.9% of people rattle along at pretty much dead on 70. Its dead easy.

As for anyone doing 100+, I'm definitely in the instant ban, no questions asked camp.

You can do your b+e in lieu of your regular driving test these days.

Sorry, b+e?

It's a failure because it demonstrates hesitancy or a lack of confidence, not because it's illegal.

Fair point, I was mangling that a bit to make it fit and you're right.

Minimum speed in the Mersey Tunnel apparantly.

B = car licence
E = trailer competency

Yep that.and in the old days trailer competency was a scootch around a carpark and had to be done after your driving licence.

These days it's the same test with or with out a trailer.

But that's still not a driving test for sbob.

Everyone must have come across the odd occassion where the lorry in the inside suddenly comes across Doris in her Micra doing 45 and has to pull out pretty quickly into the middle lane and as a result probably causing the person in the middle lane cruising at 70 out into the outside.

or brake. but that doesn't seem to be an option for HGV drivers...

Dunno about "now" but it was the case when I learned to drive back in like 1990. You'll fail if you don't drive to the posted limits unless there's a valid reason not to. Or at least, that's what my instructor told me and I've little reason to doubt him.

He was talking bollocks. Mrs F used to be an advanced instructor and assured me you won’t fail for driving under the limit. This is due to the fact that 99% of the time there is a reason not to. Raining, too sunny, talll hedges, pedestrians etc

Then my instructor must have been talking bollocks as well. And the examiner that gave me a minor for driving too slowly at one point (but not consistently).

[quote=bails ]Does that take account of the thinking/reaction time? 'Thinking' for a second at 90mph will cover a bigger distance than at 70mph. So you're already ~30% further down the road before you even touch the brake pedal.

I wondered that and nearly suggested it - but then I did the calcs. Assuming a 1g stop which is about right for a modern car* then the difference in actual stopping distance from 90 to 70 and 70 to 0 is ~17m. The reaction time would have to be 2s for that to be the difference in distance travelled at 70 and 90.

At least I had dismissed that until I googled and found http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/highway-code-car-stopping-distances-wrong-drivers-thinking-time-brake-rac-a7859061.html which suggests real world thinking time of 1.5s. So again doing the calcs that makes the total stopping distance from 70mph 97m (47m thinking, 50m stopping at 1g) the thinking distance at 90mph 60m, hence 37m to brake which would get you down to 67mph. Seems close enough to be right if real world is 1.5s reaction and 1g braking.

trail_rat - Member

But don't let that stop your misinformed preconceptions

That crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your fingers are likely to lead to a minor?

You want to argue against that?

Interesting gambit, admittedly.

Hmm. Don't entirely agree with this, especially on motorways.

Anticipation.

A key part of being a safe driver.

FYI AFAIK there’s only one place in the country with a minimum speed limit.

You may disagree, but the Doris doing 45 mph isn’t doing anything wrong. If you can’t anticipate traffic then you need some remedial on your driving.

Mrs F used to be an advanced instructor

There's the issue right there.. Female instructors..

squirrelking - Member

Then my instructor must have been talking bollocks as well. And the examiner that gave me a minor for driving too slowly at one point (but not consistently).

Likewise.
My examiner actually wanted to mark me down twice, but I argued against one as he hadn't (couldn't from the passenger seat) spotted a hazard that I was reacting to.

Surfmatt=awesome

That crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your fingers are likely to lead to a minor?

You want to argue against that?

Interesting gambit, admittedly.

very good i see what you did there.... your first argument failed on facts so you did the old switcharoo "of course i meant this"

maybe phone dvsa centre and have the argument with someone that cares. , after all they performed the assessment from the passenger seat and signed off on it.

as for me , I'm off to fit my new forks.

CAN YOU BE FINED FOR DRIVING TOO SLOW
Although there is no minimum speed limit on the majority of UK roads, you can still be fined for driving too slow if it is seen that you are a hazard to other road users. There is no specific penalty for driving too slowly and as such, penalties may be as little as a verbal warning by a police officer along with a lecture of the dangers of driving too slow and in more serious cases, a motorist may find themselves in court charged with driving without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other road users (penalty code CD30). The more serious penalty CD30 comes with penalty points on a motorists licence, anywhere from 3 to 9 along with a fine. Penalty points stay on a motorists licence for four years from the date of the offence and are likely to seriously impact the cost of car insurance.

The amount of penalty points set between 3 and 9 and a fine of anything up to a maximum of £5,000 are determined by the seriousness of the incident and the decision of the court.

IF DRIVING EXCESSIVELY SLOW IS DANGEROUS, WHAT SHOULD I DO?
Driving too slow may originate from an driving incident that has knocked the confidence out of them, making them feel vulnerable and scared behind the wheel. For others, they may hold the belief that it is in fact safer, whilst others may drive excessively slow to save on fuel.

If you are unable to break the driving too slow habit yourself, seek the guidance of a qualified driving instructor. Refresher driving lessons are essentially offered to those that can drive, but need to require lost driving skills. This short driving course often lasting just a few hours will see the instructor impart their knowledge and skills, making you a more confident and safer driver.

IF DRIVING SLOWLY IS DANGEROUS, HOW SHOULD I DRIVE?
Quite simply, if weather, road and traffic conditions allow, drive at whatever the speed limit is on that particular road.

https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/minimum-speed-limits-driving-too-slow.html

Also: https://www.saga.co.uk/magazine/motoring/cars/using/why-driving-too-slowly-is-dangerous

So yes, Doris is clearly in the wrong by driving at half the posted limit when conditions allow full speed.

Smell my cheese.

[img] [/img]

trail_rat - Member

very good i see what you did there.... your first argument failed on facts so you did the old switcharoo "of course i meant this"

Yes I changed my mind from my first reply to you:

You can hardly claim a clean sheet on a proper driving test when, IIRC, you admitted to crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your grip, both likely to get you a minor.

to

That crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your fingers are likely to lead to a minor?

Yes, I can see how my point that crossing your arms and letting the wheel slip through your fingers are likely to lead to a minor has changed considerably.

have the argument with someone that cares

I believe it's quite obvious that there is at least one person that does.

Politics, religion and pointing out flaws in someone's driving. 😆
Enjoy your forks.

B = car licence
E = trailer competency

Ah, of course. Thanks.

You'll fail if you don't drive to the posted limits [b]unless there's a valid reason not to.[/b]

Mrs F used to be an advanced instructor and assured me you won’t fail for driving under the limit. This is due to the fact that 99% of the time there is a reason not to. Raining, too sunny, talll hedges, pedestrians etc

Isn't that precisely what I just said?

Incidentally, if she's an advanced instructor, does that mean she's qualified to comment on how to pass the regular test which holds a driver to different standards?

My uncle did get stopped by the police for driving too slow. He was doing around 25 in a 40 IIRC.

(that was clearly many years ago when traffic police existed)

At an indicated 65 your actual speed is probably [s]58-59mph[/s] 61-62mph, [s]2-3mph[/s] 5-6mph faster than the lorries who are doing 56mph. How slowly do you walk?

About half that fast.

About half that fast.

Can we just assume I said "very slow" rather than "walking pace" please?

What have i started!

Can we just assume I said "very slow" rather than "walking pace" please?

If you think it helps you to make your point, be my guest.

edward2000 - Member

What have i started!

A driving thread! 😀

Everyone must have come across the odd occassion where the lorry in the inside suddenly comes across Doris in her Micra doing 45 and has to pull out pretty quickly into the middle lane and as a result probably causing the person in the middle lane cruising at 70 out into the outside.

Yes, but at the same time if everything in the outer 2 lanes is doing 70, when Eddie Stobart has to move out at 56, you don't have to lift off much to allow him space to do so, or if you want you have time to move safely into a gap in the outside lane which is going at the same speed as you are anyway.

Except you can't because you're doing 75 already and there's no space in the outside lane because of the steady stream of german saloons making progress at 85 with their noses stuck up the arse of the car in fron precisely so you can't move out.

So while Doris might be causing the issue, and as rightly noted too slow can be a hazard too, it's still the too fast, and specifically the speed differential, that is substantially exacerbating it.

@ molgrips a page or so back. You're right, 30mph outside a school at kicking out time is optimistic, doesn't stop some ****s from trying it though. And as long as it's only 2 wheels on the pavement so they can squeeze through past the parked cars, that still leaves what - a foot gap between the kids and parents and their 1500kg of entitlement. Plenty.