[Closed] So my bro got caught speeding

Black boxes, as supplied by some insurance companies. To be made compulsory for all insurance policies. Drive like a loon, you get a friendly phone call from your insurers asking for some more money. Apparently they're quite effective.

And dashcams.

I'd prefer a speeding alarm or something instead. That way if you need to floor it to overtake you can, and there are no nasty surprises - but the shrill alarm would soon encourage you to slow down.

most modern cars have this functionality.

in oman they ping at you constantly if you exceed the NSL.

Interesting thread as all the speeding ones are...
I'm just reflecting on attitude to laws, seeing as the Germans, Swiss and French have been mentioned earlier... also mindful of the dangers of a generalisation as I havn't spoken to every individual in those countries...

Since my move to Germany and driving here (30km/h and unrestricted autobahn) as well as Switzerland, (open roads 80km/h, 120km/h motorways), its very obvious that attitude to these laws is very different. Dont get me wrong, people do speed, but the general acceptance and adherance to these laws and other public law does feel very different in everyday life, as well as on the road.

I think the limits in general work because the attitude to the law and acceptance of it, culturally makes the systems work to a greater degree.

A big leap here I know, but the Swiss have a country stuffed full of guns and they are often referenced in US gun threads*.... Something in the space between the ears of a Swiss person must be different in the self restraint element. Call it culture, education, whatever.... and if I go with the "Behavoiur breeds behaviour" theory, this self restraint / acceptance of law / speed limits is self reinforcing and becomes "how things are and work" in Germany / Switzerland [i] in general [/i].

Another clear example of different attitudes at work is merging two lanes into one. The game of punish the merging driver doesnt seem to be the norm and the logical Zip method works when people drive in both lanes to the front of the line. The attitude is very different.

Yes, people are generally more disciplined on motorways here and yes, cars do hang on your bumper but if you are used to it, look, indicate, make your move and then move over. Remember a lot of autobahn is 2 lanes, not three... so its trucks and everything else on unrestricted sections. (yes, we have had the autobahn fatality figures already. Faster speeds = more energy = more likely bad outcomes when it happens)

At the end of the day, calibrated instruments measure speed objectively but its a subjective individual judge that pronounces on contrition, remorse or attitude.

*yes, I know bullets are controlled, not guns, plus the Swiss have earnings linked speed fines as deterrants that are eyewatering... but I'm referencing attitude to law in the bit above.

Maybe Edukator and other non German residents might add a comment here.

Yeah you can set it in my car, but only a blanket level, it doesn't change when you enter speed limits.

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-42660331 ]what speed limit for bonfires[/url]

Which kind of demonstrates the need for limits to be lower rather than higher given the stupidity of some people

If we are talking solutions though, I would spent a lot more on education and education reinforcement. Most people don't concentrate because they don't think it's a big deal. Let's make it a big deal. The driving test doesn't focus enough on your responsibilities as a good driver, and with no re-education and naff all in the way of campaigns, people just don't care.

One of the things Mrs F hated when she was involved with instructing was the unwillingness to change and modernise the driving test. Hopefully once the old guard in charge shuffle off this mortal coil things can improve.

Remove all the home comforts such as heating, power steering, air con and windows 😈 that would slow people down straight away 😉

deepreddave - Member

Strictly speaking all vehicles are speed limited electronically or mechanically hence me saying GPS speed limited. Context is everything don't you know....

I'm struggling to find the relevance of this post.

gauss1777 - Member

All vehicles being GPS limited sounds like a very good idea to me, I don’t think the idea should be dismissed so cursorily. Just off the top of my head: what evidence do you have that vehicles that are already gps limited are unduly involved in accidents?, could they not be worse without the speed limiter?, surely there’s nothing to be gained sitting on the person in front’s bumper if everyone is limited to the same speed?...

I was talking about HGVs.
You have seen how HGVs are driven on UK roads haven't you?
It sounds like you haven't...

On motorways: More than half (52%) of fatal accidents on motorways involve HGVs, despite HGVs only making up 10% of the traffic on motorways

You think that's specifically related to speed limiters?

On motorways: More than half (52%) of fatal accidents on motorways involve HGVs, despite HGVs only making up 10% of the traffic on motorways

Could the fact that they are ****ing massive not account for some of that percentage? I should imagine chances of a fatality are a lot higher because of the size and weight (and that’s just the drivers)

On motorways: More than half (52%) of fatal accidents on motorways involve HGVs, despite HGVs only making up 10% of the traffic on motorways

But if 10% of vehicles are HGVs and there's a crash between 2 vehicles then there's a 19% chance that any one of the vehicles is a HGV, right? And as the number of vehicles involved in the collision goes up, the chance of a HGV being involved also goes up. So it's not quite the difference that the quote makes it look like.

There's also the restriction by [b]fatal[/b] collisions. Why would being in a car that's hit by a 44 tonne HGV be more likely to cause a death than a collision with a 1.5 tonne car, or a 200kg motorbike, or 100kg of [s]gnarpoon[/s] bike and cyclist? It's because of the energy involved in the collision, which is related to mass and [b]speed[/b].

As either goes up, so does the energy in the collision and so does the level of harm likely to be caused.

sbob - Member
I'm struggling to find the relevance of this post.

And your own presumably. How HGVs are driven to their limit is a separate issue to speeding per se.

[quote=aracer ]You think that's specifically related to speed limiters?

more likely not looking out the ****ing window.

deepreddave - Member

And your own presumably. How HGVs are driven to their limit is a separate issue to speeding per se.

Here we go... 🙄

To recap:
[b]You[/b] mentioned speed limiters and your desire for them:

Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles

I pointed out that we already have speed limited vehicles (HGVs) and pointed out an easily observable reason as to how they can have a negative effect.

This is an entirely relevant reply.

Unlike your other post. You might have well have mentioned that all vehicles are limited ultimately in free-fall by their aerodynamic profile.

I'm happy to explain more of your own posts to you if you like, but not for long as it's happy hour soon and I need to keep up my darts practice. 🙂

[quote=sbob ]I pointed out that we already have speed limited vehicles (HGVs) and pointed out an easily observable reason as to how they can have a negative effect.

You did, and I previously ignored it as anecdotal nonsense, but if you really want to make a big thing of it:

[quote=sbob ]Bring on GPS speed limited vehicles
We already have speed limited vehicles.
They're the massive ones that sit on the limit inches from your rear bumper and are involved in an unduly large number of accidents.

Interesting. The accidents thing has already been addressed and there's certainly no obvious connection between that and speed limiters. However far more interesting is the suggestion that they sit on the limit inches from your rear bumper. I'm curious how you manage to stay precisely at the speed of the HGV's limiter without the benefit of having one yourself (despite having admitted I sometimes travel at truck speed on motorways it's an experience I've failed to have)?

Anyway, fundamentally you're playing the same game here as "I know a slow driver who is rubbish, ergo all slow drivers are rubbish", which is also clearly nonsense.

They tried trialling gps speed limited motorcycles with help from several magazines and a couple of manufacturers.
Every single bike went down the road due to the system shutting power down when it decided the vehicle was exceeding the limit. Pretty much all in mid-corner.
Stupid idea.

aracer - Member

You think that's specifically related to speed limiters?

Yes.

Longer answer: I believe it's one factor of many. Probably far outweighed (unintentional pun) by the type of vehicle (big heavy ones).
I do believe that limiting vehicles using GPS will encourage drivers to inappropriately sit on that limit.
I believe it is (or will be treated as) a removal of responsibility, when we need to be making drivers more responsible, not less.

Chaps, you’re all missing the essential truth. I’m both faster and safer than you all. I’m also manlier and more attractive to the opposite and indeed the same sex.

You did, and I previously ignored it as anecdotal nonsense

Carry on, I wasn't talking to you. 🙂

The accidents thing has already been addressed

No it hasn't. Not well at least.
I was asked for evidence and I provided it.
The problem with replying to other people's exchanges is that the specifics of a post often get confused due to the differing views of the poster.

there's certainly no obvious connection between that and speed limiters

Yes there is. It is obvious and observable. They encourage HGV drivers to travel too close. Why do you think snail racing exists? Drivers sitting on the limiter.
Like I said, entirely observable.

However far more interesting is the suggestion that they sit on the limit inches from your rear bumper. I'm curious how you manage to stay precisely at the speed of the HGV's limiter without the benefit of having one yourself

I didn't say I stayed at precisely the speed of the HGV (which will vary) that's your strawman, but acceleration sense is the term you are looking for, and the one you would probably already know of if you spent less time arguing on the net and more time furthering your driving education. 🙂

Anyway, fundamentally you're playing the same game here as "I know a slow driver who is rubbish, ergo all slow drivers are rubbish", which is also clearly nonsense.

No, this is almost entirely your prejudice.

I had to stop posting in the EU thread because people who were too thick to understand that I could criticize the EU without being a leaver were also continuously misrepresenting my position. 💡
😉

oldbloke - Member

Speeding was never really the issue on the A9 - it was lots of insane overtaking on convoys led by 40mph trucks.

The A9 is better now, but not just because of the cameras alone. The rise in limit for trucks to 50mph (most seem to sit at indicated c. 55) means there's less desire to overtake and the cameras then reduce the benefit of doing so. Either cameras or faster trucks on their own wouldn't have had the same effect.

Supposedly when they added the massive "dual carriageway in 1 mile" LED signs it cut accidents in those sections to essentially nil, just by stopping the headcase overtakes. But that doesn't help on the longer nondualed sections.

sbob:

I was talking about HGVs.
You have seen how HGVs are driven on UK roads haven't you?
It sounds like you haven't...

On motorways: More than half (52%) of fatal accidents on motorways involve HGVs, despite HGVs only making up 10% of the traffic on motorways

Hmm. I’m not quite sure what you mean by “it sounds (sic) like you haven’t...” As I have said, I don’t drive, but I have done enough travelling on motorways to see that ‘sitting on the bumper’ of the car in front is commonplace for all modes of transport. HGVs appear to me to be driven generally at at a higher standard than cars, but that’s just a gut feeling.
The point about HGVs being involved in a disproportionately high number fatal accidents, has been addressed by others.

I do believe that limiting vehicles using GPS will encourage drivers to inappropriately sit on that limit.

This sounds like a reasonable assumption to me, but surely without their limiters they’d be sitting on a higher speed, whatever they could reach/maintain?

That's not what unlimited vehicles do now.

Making drivers concentrate, think and shoulder responsibility is, I believe, the key to safe driving.

gauss1777 - Member

This sounds like a reasonable assumption to me, but surely without their limiters they’d be sitting on a higher speed, whatever they could reach/maintain?

No, not necessarily- that'd be assuming that they all want to speed. Basically a limiter means you don't need to think about speed. For some folks that probably means they can focus on other things, especially those folks that are obsessed with being at exactly the speed limit, for others I'm sure it'll mean they think less. Especially the obsessed-with-speed crowd and the 9 pointers and the "I'm safe, I don't speed" people.

I've no idea whether it's a net benefit or harm though.

I’m still not sure I understand. Are you saying that HGVs constantly travel at their speed limit because they have limiters and that otherwise they would not break the speed limit, but vary their speed within the limit?

(Apologies for a terribly constructed sentence, I think I need to go on a writing course).

gauss1777 - Member

I’m still not sure I understand. Are you saying that HGVs constantly travel at their speed limit because they have limiters and that otherwise they would not break the speed limit, but vary their speed within the limit?

I won't speak for Sbob but that's not what I'm saying- I'm saying that sitting on a limiter means drivers don't have to think about managing speed, whereas not having a limiter means they have to. And in some cases that's going to cause less overall concentration.

Of course, some drivers obsess about speed and it takes too [i]much[/i] of their concentration

I won't speak for Sbob

Please do, you normally make more sense. 🙂

Northwind, I think I now understand what you are saying. You are concerned that due to gps limiters some people may switch off/lose focus, whereas without - they are forced to pay more attention (?). You may have a point, but don’t those sort of drivers just go along with the general flow of traffic, still paying little attention? [I’d still rather they were going slower]

there's certainly no obvious connection between that and speed limiters

It should be readily provable. Compare accident statistics from before and after mandatory limiters were introduced.

[quote=Cougar ]It should be readily provable. Compare accident statistics from before and after mandatory limiters were introduced.

That would be interesting and certainly more useful evidence than trying to use non-lorries as the control group.

[quote=sbob ]

there's certainly no obvious connection between that and speed limiters

You've seen snail racing causing accidents? Your suggestion is that speed limiters contribute to the relatively high % of lorries involved in fatal accidents. Your claim is that the connection between limiters and accidents is observable. But you don't appear to have observed the cause of an accident involving HGVs. Snail racing might be irritating, but it doesn't obviously cause accidents. Though you don't even appear to have proved that they encourage HGV drivers to travel any closer than they would otherwise.

No it hasn't. Not well at least.
I was asked for evidence and I provided it.

An explanation has been provided which is far more plausible than your speed limiter theory - you've still provided no evidence for the connection between the accident rate and the speed limiters, it's just a theory.

I didn't say I stayed at precisely the speed of the HGV (which will vary)

Let me stop you right there. The speed of the HGV which is sitting on the limiter will vary? Though my apologies for misrepresenting you by quoting you directly. I'll just note again that there's no evidence that limiters encourage lorry drivers to tailgate.

acceleration sense is the term you are looking for, and the one you would probably already know of if you spent less time arguing on the net and more time furthering your driving education.

Apologies for not having done advanced driver training, so not knowing the terminology - though I googled and the interesting thing is that I've already mentioned on this thread that it's something I do (not only that, I think I might be the only person on this thread to have mentioned it).

No, this is almost entirely your prejudice.

My prejudice that you're extrapolating from anecdotes?

I always though lorries sat nose to tail with each other to eek out a bit more mpg through drafting.

@sbob - speed limiters are an entirely different proposition to GPS speed limiters. Limiting top speed of HGVs regardless of road, conditions or traffic is a blunt tool to achieve a different end.
Your argument isn't against GPS speed limiters, just poor HGV driving although them all travelling at a similar consistent top speed presumably reduces the risk of accidents too.

I always though lorries sat nose to tail with each other to eek out a bit more mpg through drafting

(I’m struggling to believe I posted that) - thoughts?

New forks are fitted and some bike riding has been done Can't believe this shits still going. Seems the IAM is the institute of angry motorists.

Anyway further contribution.

I picked up my first car from this decade today.

Can't believe how far derived from the driving process you are placed in what is quite a basic car.

Large amounts of the thought has been removed even.

Auto lights
Auto dip
Auto wipers
Reversing sensors
Hill assist
Cruise control.
Cars that don't need changing downngears to get up hills.

Now to some folk that seems great. But with all that comes folk paying less attention as thy simply don't feel the need to as the car does most of it for then.

Some of.tje newer ones with colison avoidance and shit people have to pay even less attention.....

The transition between fully automated and human controlled via partially human controlled is going to be fraught with hazards

Does auto-dip work for oncoming cyclists and pedestrians or only cars?

**** knows . Tbh Ive turned off the auto lights the auto wipers and the auto dip.

Imperfectly capible of flicking the switch when appropriate as per my other 2 vehicles. Didn't want us to get bad habits in them

I'd turn off the reversing sensors too but apparently short of pulling the fuse which will display a fault I have to press the button on starting he car every time

Why would you do that without even trying them?

Because we have 3 vehicles which I switch between frequently.....

It's bad enough when one had the indicators on the other side a few years ago. Swore I'd never do that again.

Because we have 3 vehicles which I switch between frequently.....

It's bad enough when one had the indicators on the other side a few years ago. Swore I'd never do that again

One have ours has the steering wheel in front of a different seat.
The other has the “hand brake” on your left foot.
I manage ok.

That's your choice.

I can run - but I choose not to.

Much like I set up my bikes similarly I like to set my vehicles up similarly.

After all I put my seats and mirrors in similar position s in my cars - why not make them operate the same. Then I'm.not driving round in my land rover with the light bar blinding all an sundry waiting for them them to auto dip.

I disagree about driving aids making people inattentive. There's enough going on on most roads in the UK to demand attention regardless. If you're not paying attention, then you're not paying attention. Arguably the fewer things you have to do would result in LESS of a distraction from the road not more.

Auto dip

In this case, people not concentrating on dipping will simply not dip.

Exactly so if the auto dip doesn't do it they won't do it will they ?

If your paying attention to the road you will dip......

If your just wafting along in your bubble with only the go pedal and the wheel then your not paying attention to many things ....which should form your assessment of conditions on the road ahead.

What I am saying is that if they are not paying attention, then having to dip won't make them pay attention - they just won't dip.

But the less they have to read the road ahead the less attention they will pay.....

In much the same way as 20 signs don't get folk doing ,20 but they lower the over all speed they do do ......